The Instigator
brian_eggleston
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Restaurants that snaffle their staff's tips are rip-off merchants and should be boycotted

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/18/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,503 times Debate No: 4717
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (8)
Votes (13)

 

brian_eggleston

Pro

When I tip a waiter or waitress in a restaurant for good service, I expect the money to go to that individual directly, not to some grasping plutocrat lounging in a leather chair in an air-conditioned office, but that's exactly what happens at restaurant chains who snatch the tips from their poorly paid staff and keep them for themselves.

http://www.independent.co.uk...

If a restaurant advertised the fact in advance that any tips paid to staff will be seized and given instead to some faceless corporate shareholders, the customer would be very unlikely to pay any more than the basic bill, which is why, of course, they hush the practice up.

This deception is tantamount to theft and restaurant chains that rip their staff and customers off should be boycotted.

.
Danielle

Con

It should be known that I'm taking this on strictly for the sake of debate...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"When I tip a waiter or waitress in a restaurant for good service, I expect the money to go to that individual directly..." -- Pro

I understand that Pro EXPECTS the money to go directly to the individual; however, in some cases it doesn't. And just as the restaurant does not advertise that it capitalizes on its waiters tips, it also does not advertise that 100% of the tips you leave go directly to the waiters either. By that logic, the restaurant has done nothing wrong. No false advertising has been made.

In choosing to leave a tip, you are choosing to leave money to the establishment that has provided you (hopefully) with good food, a good atmosphere and good service. Without the establishment, the waiters would have been in no position to receive that tip from you. Therefore, it can be said, in fact, that it is indeed the restaurant that is deserving of your gracious tipping - not the individual. Unless a restaurant advertises that all tips go to waiters, and does not make good on that word, can the restaurant be deemed at fault.

So long as an individual earns at least the legal minimum wage from an employer, no wrong has been done. It is up to the patron to inquire about where his money goes and decide whether or not he or she would like to leave a tip. If not, the waiters must still earn what is deemed the minimum legal wage regardless of whether people tipped a total of $1,000 that week or $0.

The fact remains that the waiter chose to accept that job, and by choosing to keep that job, they are accepting the current policies including the chance that they will earn strictly the minimum wage and no more, regardless of the hard/good work they put into their service. If they don't like that restaurant's policy, they can choose to work elsewhere.

Furthermore, in almost NO restaurant does a waiter receive 100% of their tip money anyway. At the end of the night, a server typically has to 'tip out' to the evening's bar-tender(s) and/or host(ess) and bus boys to name a few.

In regard as to why these establishments should not be boycotted, remember that even if a waiter is only earning the minimum wage, that is still a job that an employer is providing to an employee. To boycott the business and hurt the owner's pocketbooks would only mean less jobs, and the employed individuals who depend on that job might lose it as a result. Plus, patrons who enjoy the restaurant would be giving up an outing that they enjoy.

At the end of the day, there are other ways to get around the unjustice that Pro feels has been done. One, he can choose to NOT TIP AT ALL. Like I said, the waiter would still earn the same amount of money at the end of the pay period (at least minimum wage - the same as MANY other workers). Two, people can keep tips low and choose to pay a smaller amount for the service/ambiance/food. Three, the patron could inquire with management how the tipping amount gets distributed. Four, the patron could even choose to discuss tip amounts 'privately' with the waiter. In other words, specify to the waiter that this money must go specifically to him.

We must keep in mind that when it comes to tipping, there is never 100% justice. Waiter A could provide excellent service to a family of 8 and receive a $2 tip. Waiter B could have been a horrible server to a dining couple of 2 and receive a $20 tip. Is that fair? Probably not. But boycotting the restaurant certainly won't solve that problem, nor will it solve this one. I'm sure just the threat of a boycott or a simple discussion between several patrons and the management would help. If not, c'est la vie.
Debate Round No. 1
brian_eggleston

Pro

Thanks theLwerd, for taking up this debate.

In essence, I agree with my opponent's assessment of the situation regarding the legal aspect of not allowing the staff to keep their tips, and in not advertising the fact they they employ such (shady) practices in advance the restaurants are not acting outside the law.

The main thrust of my original argument was that those of us who live in capitalist countries have a choice of which establishment to place our custom with and that this type of immoral corporate greed should not be rewarded.

My opponent goes on to point out that should we choose to boycott restaurants that swindle their staff and customers, the loss of trade will effect not only the grasping corporate shareholders but their employees as well, who may lose their jobs.

This is true, but the lost trade will choose alternative restaurants with more ethical employment policies and the redundant staff could apply for jobs at one of these eateries instead.

With thanks in advance for the voters' support and good luck to my opponent.

BE
Danielle

Con

"...this type of immoral corporate greed should not be rewarded"

Maybe not, but we as consumers 'reward' these types of greedy organizations all the time. Just because some restaurants are brought to light in this particular example does not mean that they are any worse than 90% of other businesses out there. Using tip money to contribute to staff's wages may be unethical, but exploiting workers who earn 10 cents a day for 16 hours of labor is also pretty unethical if you ask me. Yet Pro is right - we ARE capitalists. And as capitalists, we like to pay as little money as possible for what we want, be it clothes from companies who exploit workers in Taiwan, or shady restaurant owners here in the States.

Because restaurants might make dining more expensive at said restaurants to increase profits (instead of paying salaries via tips), it is in our capitalist interests to keep practices as-is. Further, Pro mentioned out-of-job employees seeking employment at other more ethical establishments. Although that sounds like a simple and good idea, he is forgetting that there are only a certain amount of jobs, and job competition could force employees to settle for lower wages. Just a thought.

Thanks for the debate, Brian, and thanks to everyone who read.
Debate Round No. 2
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by brian_eggleston 5 years ago
brian_eggleston
Thanks for voting F-16!

This must have been one of my first debates (I know that because I didn't end my arguments with my customary "thank you").

Even though I still maintain my position on the subject of tips, I was totally outclassed by Danielle (then theLwerd) and deserve to lose this one.
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
Well...You complained about it alot when you worked there!

I also agree with LM's suggestion....
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
Ps. I agree with LM's suggestion.
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
Alright Brian... if this debate is still here tonight when I get home, I'll take it up. Good luck to ya though if someone snatches it before me.
Posted by Xera 9 years ago
Xera
lol IAR I never really worked like that. but I only lost my tips when I worked the boss's wife's tables for her when she went on break and didn't come back till the customers were just leaving so she could snatch it up. :D Wonder why I quit after just one month?
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
Better idea: Boycott tipping so that restaurants will be forced to pay their employees fairly out of their own pocketbook. I think our social custom concerning tipping has gotten too out of hand and is really getting taken advantage of. Nowadays, if you don't tip and happen to come back to the same restaurant in the future, the employees responsible for cooking will really leave you a nasty surprise if you know what I mean.
Posted by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
If places are going to pay only min. wage, they should be allowed to earn more money: a tip, for good service. I hope no body ever works for, or eats at restraunts that do that.

Xera used to work at a place that did that, but she quit because of it.
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
Well, I could argue for the restaurant taking some of the waiter's tips, but what's wrong is how the restaurant people are using tips to pay the staff's wages -- and not allowing them to earn over minimum wage. That's BS.
13 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguments were much better explained with logical reasoning and Pro never countered her points at all. Personally, I think there is an implied expectation that when you tip, the tip goes to the server. When restaurants break this implied expectation, they must public make it clear. If a grocery store chain does not accept credit, debit, or check but only cash, shouldn't they make that clear?
Vote Placed by Puck 9 years ago
Puck
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Im_always_right 9 years ago
Im_always_right
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by LaSalle 9 years ago
LaSalle
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Vanna_Vanvandervan 9 years ago
Vanna_Vanvandervan
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by appletreez 9 years ago
appletreez
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by brian_eggleston 9 years ago
brian_eggleston
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Jase_the_Ace 9 years ago
Jase_the_Ace
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Josh 9 years ago
Josh
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Derek.Gunn 9 years ago
Derek.Gunn
brian_egglestonDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30