The Instigator
discomfiting
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
lannan13
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

Restricted movement in anemonefish causes protandry so the species has better chances of surviving

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
lannan13
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/28/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,058 times Debate No: 59659
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (6)

 

discomfiting

Pro

This (hopefully) will be my first debate. This debate will be about 'Why are anemonefish protandrous hermaphrodites?' My position is that they are protandrous due to a natural selection in order to increase their odds of overall survival of the species. If you have a different opinion on why they are as they are, accept it as "con".

Protandrous: "(of a hermaphrodite flower or animal) having the male reproductive organs come to maturity before the female."
lannan13

Con

I accept and wish my opponent luck in his first debate.

My position in this debate is that they do so for territorial dominance and symbiosis.
Debate Round No. 1
discomfiting

Pro

discomfiting forfeited this round.
lannan13

Con

I'll wait until my opponent makes his argument.
Debate Round No. 2
discomfiting

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate and the good lucks, Lannan! I wish you good luck as well. :) I am sorry that I was not available to write my debate argument sooner; I hope you understand. (I sent you a message explaining).

Clown fish do not travel very from their homes. For the most part, a clown fish does remain within a 6-12 inch radius of it's home during their entire lifetimes. Assuming we all remember the fictitious movie, Finding Nemo, there were actually several things that were true. In the beginning of the movie, when Coral (Nemo's mother) and Marlin see the shark, Marlin suggests that they go back to the anemone. Clown fish are not predators. They are small fish and sometimes (but not always) born with disease(s) or naturally born with oddly sized pectoral fins that cause difficulties with swimming. Since they are not predators and cannot swim fast (as well as not having a poison or toxin to protect itself with) makes them extremely vulnerable. They become limited to a select space in order to stay safe. The result of being limited for a select number of reasons creates a rather hard to find a mate.

Believe it or not, but all clownfish are born as males. There is no clownfish that is born with a female reproductive organ; only the ability the change their gender. If all of them are born as males and they live in a limited space of generally 6-12 inches of their home, it creates a little problem for the survival of the species. They do not always live in massive schools like other fish; they vary in many sizes. A clownfish hierarchy is not the same as patriarchy. A school comes to together and in the beginning, consisting of only males, the largest clownfish will change and turn into a female as the second largest will be the King as female will be the Queen holding the most authority-- when the female dies, the cycle will start all over again and the largest male takes her spot and the next male will take the "King" position".

A notable university called, Yale, had a research study done on the topic of 'Why don't more animals practice sequential hermaphroditism?' Suzanne Alonzo, a tenured professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at Yale University, said "Here, we investigate whether costs of changing sex can favor dioecy. Our analyses suggest that dioecy is favored only when costs of changing sex are large. Moreover, the fitness effect of costs and the strength of male size advantage are not static but change with the population composition, resulting in a dynamic evolutionary game between sex change and dioecy."... "We were surprised to see that a hermaphrodite could spend 30 percent of its lifetime in the process of change sex, and still persist in a population," said Kazancıoğlu, a graduate Yale student that worked on the protect with Alonzo.

Sequential hermaphroditism is a trait found in this species as a survival tactic due to the limited mobility and all-male-born species where the population only survives due to this naturally selected evolutionary practice.

Defintions:
  • Dioecy: "Having the male and female reproductive organs borne on separate individuals of the same species. Characterized by species in which the male and female reproductive organs occur on different individuals; sexually distinct."
  • Heirarchy: "a system of persons or things arranged in a graded order"
lannan13

Con

So my arguments, as I stated in Round 1 will be for territorial dominance and Symbiosis, not the survivial of the Species.

Pro brings up Finding Nemo. In the movie the mother dies, but in the movie what should have happend was that the father would become the female (since there are no other clown fish around) and Nemo would then mate with his father. This is to become the dominate species as Pro has also brought up. ( http://thefisheriesblog.com...) Another part of the female dominance is the one's that produce more eggs generally are the most dominate in the region. It has also been found that switching genders increases a fish's social dominance and helps them move up the social food chain sort-to-speak. ("Queue Selection and Switching by False Clown Anemonefish, Amphiprion Ocellaris." Animal Behavior 69 (2005) by Jeremy Mitchell) I agree for the most part with my opponent concerning the heirarchy except the argument actually works for me concidering that the Heirarchy is more of a dominance argument than a survivial argument.

The Clownfish cannot due this for survivial as it has been found that Clownfish that aren't the King and Queen do not reproduce. Thus survival is immidiately driven down due to the aggression of the Queen. When the King or Queen dies another fish steps up to take it's place in the heirarchy providing and proving it's dominance over other clownfish. The fact that only the King and Queen reproduce proves that it cannot be souly just for survivial. My opponent has also said that they live alone, but that too is false as many times juvinile social groups will live together in the anemone. (Fricke, H., S. Fricke. 1977. Monogamy and sex change by aggressive dominance in coral reef fish. Nature, 266: 830-832.) Another Study that was conducted they place three groups of Clown Fish in a fish tank and found over a month's period that they created their own heirarchy and the King and Queen's body mass as well as steroid levels skyrocketed compared to that of the lower ranking clown fish. (Iwata, Eri, Yukiko Nagai, Mai Hyoudou, and Hideaki Sasaki. "Social Environment and Sex Differentiation in the False Clown Anemonefish, Amphiprion ocellaris." Zoological Science 25.2 (2008): 123-28.)

The Clownfish is very clever. It uses it's bright colors to attract preditors to it's anemone. The sting then kill the preditor and the clownfish has a meal. The Clownfish also uses it's abilities to fend of preditors of the anemone to protect it. creating a mutal relationship between the two. (http://www.animalfacts.lv2lvu.com...)
Debate Round No. 3
discomfiting

Pro

It is very true that clownfish are dominant species living in a heirarchy like most social animals do, however it is not result of the transgender trait. Dominance is and hierarchy is a common theme within species that cannot change their sexes, not just pontarous species. Con has stated "My opponent has also said that they live alone, but that too is false as many times juvinile social groups will live together in the anemone" but this is untrue that I have said that. My words were, "They do not always live in massive schools like other fish; they vary in many sizes." is not saying or implying isolation or solitary, but saying that they do not always live in large schools and that they may vary in many sizes from ten to dozens or even hundreds. Con has also stated that "The Clownfish cannot due this for survivial as it has been found that Clownfish that aren't the King and Queen do not reproduce" which is also untrue that it disqulaifies it as ineligable as survival technique since females can lay up to hundreds and even thousands of eggs at once depending on type of species of clownfish. It is true that only the dominate male (or King) will mate with the female though. It [domninance and symboisis] not a result of the ability for the fish to change their sex but a result of being a social creatures just like humans, lions, dolphins that are born as a specific sex.


1.) http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
2.) http://www.todayifoundout.com...
3.) http://a-z-animals.com...;
lannan13

Con

I'd like to disprove my opponent here. He states that the female can reproduce. This is true, but in a system of clown fish there is a male and a female. The rest of the fish are neither (immature). They become male when the King dies and that way the Clown fish's reproductive organs will be ready for the Queen and Vise Versa. This is so the Queen and King can only reproduce in a system of Clown fish giving the true meaning of the hierarchy. This was also found in the experiment that I have brought up in my last round. (Iwata, Eri, Yukiko Nagai, Mai Hyoudou, and Hideaki Sasaki. "Social Environment and Sex Differentiation in the False Clown Anemone fish, Amphiprion ocellaris." Zoological Science 25.2 (2008): 123-28.) The Clown fish lives in various sizes of ecosystem meaning that they are not isolated. Meaning that they live around a small group of Clown fish proving the Hierarchy. I'd like to make a quote from my opponent's third source,

"Clown fish inhabit a single sea anemone in groups that include the breeding male and female and a number of younger male clownfish." (http://a-z-animals.com...)

Pro's own source proves my point that only the Queen and the King reproduce. No other Clown fish in the hierarchy does.

In conclusion, we see if it were for survival then all would reproduce not just the King and Queen. The fact remains that the fish in the hierarchy change their sex to become the dominate species. My opponent has also dropped my sea anemone argument that proves my symbiosis argument in this debate.

So I thank you and please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by NiamC 2 years ago
NiamC
Why are clown fish pretentious douchebags? Thats a good resolution
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
whao looks like a tough first debate! I'll be watching the action.
Posted by ChosenWolff 2 years ago
ChosenWolff
Good luck!
Posted by schachdame 2 years ago
schachdame
Though I am always up for biology, I am not sure if there is a good alternative approach to this if one isn't religious.
Nature likely and most easily comes down to some sort of Darwinism, making a Con position a very challenging thing.

However, Welcome to the debate-section of this site and enjoy yourself. A few rules are good thing to frame a debate such as a first or last round forfeit that ensures an equal amount of debating space; just have a look into some of the better debates to get the idea :)

Good luck.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
Go DIS!
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by WLCJWC 2 years ago
WLCJWC
discomfitinglannan13Tied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Overall arguments and sources were better from Con. Pro didn't meet BOP
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
discomfitinglannan13Tied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: ff. This debate was a bit confusing, but I got most of it. Lannan made a good point about the species' gender change that forced the species to have better chances of species, and that the restricted movements did not necessarily cause protandry.
Vote Placed by distraff 2 years ago
distraff
discomfitinglannan13Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: This was a very close debate in my opinion. I was not completely happy with both sites. The question as to why all the fish would be able to reproduce if we wanted better survival chances by Con was never convincingly addressed by Pro. Con's point that sex change can benefit individual fish was convincing but it does not explain why most fish are asexual. My guess is that this allows a better natural selection and if pro had given that reason I would have voted for him. Instead he talked about fish in isolation without a mate to find. But then why would all fish be born male? Wouldn't that make the problem worse. Con's arguments that the fish are not isolated won. The point that fish in a hierarchy do better than not by Con was good and not convincingly refuted. Pro ff round 2. So I will give this one to Con.
Vote Placed by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
discomfitinglannan13Tied
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's arguments, especially in the third round, showed that clownfish are protandrous due to survival rather than a system of hierarchy and dominance. Pro had more sources, but FF a round.
Vote Placed by Daltonian 2 years ago
Daltonian
discomfitinglannan13Tied
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Total points awarded:21 
Reasons for voting decision: Both sides had faulty Spelling and Grammar. Pro had more reliable sources, but forfeited one round, so sources to Pro and Conduct to con. In terms of arguments, whilst both sides made valiant efforts. Tie.
Vote Placed by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
discomfitinglannan13Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro provided more sources and they were more viable to his arguments, however con properly refuted his arguments and thus pro couldn't fulfill BOP, good round, conduct to con due to Ff, but overall good.