The Instigator
Moroni23
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Plato_ATODT
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points

Revelation 22: 18-19

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/1/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,653 times Debate No: 18148
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

Moroni23

Con

I heard from a friend of mine this scripture that his pastor told him. He argued that because this scripture clearly states 'If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.' that the Book Of Mormon is in fact fake, because it is an 'addition' to the Bible. I thought this was interesting and I'd like to hear more about it. I will be arguing con, or against this scriptures influence on the BOM authenticity. If their is anybody out there that has heard of this scripture and believes that this is evidence against the BOM, I'd like to challenge you to a debate.

This is NOT a debate on weather or not the BOM is a true book, this is simply a debate about the scripture's influence on the BOM. I hope Pro will refrain from bringing in other methods of disproving the book, as it will be completely off topic.
Plato_ATODT

Pro

1) Mormon's accept the bible as the Holy word of God.
2) from 1) Mormon's accept Rev 22:18-19 as the Holy word of God.
3) from 2) If Mormonism is accepted, it beliefs itself false.
4) If Mormonism is not accepted, it is believed false.

The only logical option is for the book of Mormon to be accurate with the Bible being incorrect, however, this will also invalidate the Book of Mormon. There is no logical way that the BOM can be accurate and consistent.

Sources:
http://www.jefflindsay.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Moroni23

Con

Moroni23 forfeited this round.
Plato_ATODT

Pro

My opponent has forfeited this debate. That is probably for the best as there is no real arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
Moroni23

Con

Dear readers, I welcome you to this debate, and Pro, I thank you for accepting such a debate.

My argument will be informational: It will consist of 5 main points and a conclusion. I apologize for missing the deadline on round two, I am in another interesting debate and this one involved quite a bit of research on my behalf. I'd like to start this debate by displaying the scripture on trial.

Revelation 22: 18-19 (From the KJV version of the Bible)
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Point 1: Understanding the Bible
The title itself, ‘Bible', comes from the Greek word ‘biblia' meaning the books, or in modern day Greek, ‘biblio'. The biblia, or biblio, was a library, or a collection of books (or scrolls). In ancient Israel, if one wanted to read the word, he would go into something very similar to a library, and tell the worker he wanted to read the book (scroll) of Isaiah, or Moses. The worker would then search, and give such person a copy of the book of Isaiah, or Moses. All of the scrolls were not combined into one book until around 340AD. This book was given the name Biblio, or Bible due to its being a collection of many different books.

Point 2: Biblical Evidence
It's interesting to point out that the word Bible is never once mentioned in the Bible. Apart from the facts of history, and the records we have, this is further evidence that the Bible was never one book, but many separate books compiled into one hundreds of years after the death of the Savior.

Point 3: John Breaking his own commandment
Probably the most interesting Point to be made is that John himself, writer of the Book of Revelation, wrote four other Holy books AFTER the Book of Revelation was written.

Point 4: Revelations position in the Bible
The Bible was NOT put together in chronological order from when they were written; it was put together as a work of art almost.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were put into the front of the Bible, because these books were pertaining to the Life of Christ (Keep in mind the book of John was written after the book of revelation). The Acts, and The Epistle to the Romans were pertaining to life after the death of Christ the rest of the books were placed chronologically, and they are all letters to the church. The Book of Revelation was placed in the back of the New Testament because it did not fit in with any of the other books.

Point 5: Evidence within the Scripture
Ironically, a similar verse is found in the Old Testament. Dut 4:2, 12:32 ‘Ye shall not add unto this book.' Unless the book of Revelation was written the same time as the book of Deuteronomy, and if that verse means exactly what Pro beliefs it means, then every book written after the book of Deuteronomy is an addition, and is then false. Knowing what we know now about the Bible, we can understand that when John states ‘no man shall take away from the words of the book of THIS prophecy,' he is simply putting a copy write on the book of Revelation, and the book of Revelation ONLY.

Conclusion: Putting the 5 Points Together
The Bible is a collection of many different books, all which were added to each other. If john meant anything other than a copy write on his own book of Revelation, then the Bible itself is void because all it is, is a collection of many different books. John himself ‘added to the book of revelation' when he wrote the epistles of John, and the Gospel of John. The Book of Mormon, whether it is true or not, claims to be nothing but another testament of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon claims to be one more book in the library. The rumor that the book of Mormon is unbiblical because of these verses is false, and can be proven false by looking at the history behind the making of the Bible. The Book of Mormon is NOT adding onto the Book of revelation, and this is all that John warned against. I feel my argument was clear and precise, the history is there, and the facts are there. People who belief this verse stands for means of discrediting the BOM are people who do not understand the history behind the Bible. I know the BOM is not a popular book, and many believe it to be false, but I hope the voters will be unbais, and vote Con.

References
http://www.culham.ac.uk...
http://www.essortment.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.thechristianpresident.com...
Plato_ATODT

Pro

This is an Etymological Fallacy. Bible is derived from the Greek word for book, but as such, that no longer applies. When the bible was compressed into a single book and edited throughout the years, if Rev 22:18-19 referred to only the book of revelations, it would be changed to maintain such meaning. Based on the fact that the bible has been altered time and time again, we can assume that Christianity is fine with minor edits. If not, then the holy book which Mormonism accepts already condemns them for editing revelations.

You say that John wrote four other books after Revelations, however, this is unlikely the case. When pinpointing down the dates of authorship, all books were written in overlapping time frames. But based on the tone of writing in Revelations, it could not have been written before the other books of John, as in his "visions" his view of Jesus was dramatically changed. The only other explanation would be that they were written by different Johns, who did not experience the same things.

You point to Deuteronomy 4:2 as an example, however it has been misquoted by you. "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." The same with 12:32. "See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it." It does not reference the book, but the commands.

I have addressed all relative points. Rev 22:18-19 says not to add to the holy book. Mormons view Rev 22:18-19 as holy. Mormons have added the BOM to it and as such, have contradicted themselves.

Sources:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com...
http://bible.cc...
http://bible.cc...
Debate Round No. 3
Moroni23

Con

Moroni23 forfeited this round.
Plato_ATODT

Pro

My opponent has forfeited his final round. I've shown how his argument is nothing but etymological fallacies and special pleading. Basic logic has shown that the resolution is accurate and the two are not logically compatible. Thank you for your time and I hope that all have learned something from this.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Moroni23 6 years ago
Moroni23
No dude I have an argument you probably won't see coming haha. Just hang in their i'll revice it and have it posted tonight.
Posted by Plato_ATODT 6 years ago
Plato_ATODT
I'm sorry that you missed the deadline, but it is probably for the best. I'd recommend letting this go and move on to another debate. I see that you are in a few.
Posted by Moroni23 6 years ago
Moroni23
Shoot dude i'm sorry man i had it finished and ready to post, but i thought i had till the end of the day today... I guess you can post another argument orsoemthing if you want. I'm sorry dude.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Zarroette 3 years ago
Zarroette
Moroni23Plato_ATODTTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 6 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Moroni23Plato_ATODTTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.