The Instigator
little_penguin
Pro (for)
Winning
26 Points
The Contender
coolmikeb
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Right for Women to Go Topless

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/4/2011 Category: Society
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,500 times Debate No: 16864
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (45)
Votes (5)

 

little_penguin

Pro

It should be legal for women to go topless.

(1) It seems that the constitution already grants that it is (several court cases support this.) First of all, we have equal rights (supposedly). Second of all, breasts are not genitals and, thus, revealing them is not "indecent exposure." It's legal in many states and cities, based on this reasoning. Let's make it nation-wide.

(2) The typical argument that it is "offensive" is ridiculous, and biased toward particular religions or personal moral beliefs not held by all members of society. We should not be catering to random beliefs or upholding religion, or certain religions, in our national laws.

(3) The typical argument that it will incite rape is problematic and, in fact, downright disturbing. It is eerily similar to the reasoning I've heard behind why women have to wear burqas: Men can't resist raping women, so woman (darn them! it's THEIR OWN FAULT, isn't it?) should cover up. So... where do we draw the line here? Going topless incites rape. What about wearing mini-skirts? A regular skirt? A low-cut tank-top? A regular tank-top? Do you see how this goes? It's never okay to rape a woman. If men think otherwise, it's the MEN we should be focusing on passing laws regarding (or punishing more severely when they violate the existing laws.) If I start raping every man who has a nice six-pack at the beach, will it eventually become illegal for MEN to go topless? I doubt it!

4. The whole man-boobs thing... If you want to talk about what is or isn't "offensive," then that depends on many factors, such as hairiness, physical fitness, and a slew of others. I don't see why MY breasts are "offensive" and some nasty man-boobs aren't. Should we go by size? Skin health? Or should we just admit that it's STUPID to say that my breasts are "offensive" and a man's aren't?

5. The "it's damaging to children" argument: No. It's not. European children are fine! American children, on the other hand, more than children in most other countries, have complexes/eating disorders and generally unhealthy ideas about their bodies and sexuality in general. (Lack of info about sexual health, lack of info about controlling reproduction, and so on.) Our country is also a "leader" in violent crime, including rape. I *welcome* change in how we teach our children to view the human body! The "it harms children" argument is invalid.

6. It's possible, though not yet proven, that constantly wearing a bra is bad for your breasts. At any rate, it's hot and uncomfortable (I don't need a scientific experiment to prove that to me!), so why can't I take my shirt and bra off?

7. People flip out when they see so much as a BRA---despite the fact that bras cover as much as, if not MORE than, a typical bathing suit top. I think this shows how irrational we are about women's breasts.
coolmikeb

Con

Over 90% of North American women wear a bra, many without ever asking why. Interestingly, bra wearing is not a necessity for most women for their breasts' sake; it is worn for cultural reasons.


A brief history of bras

Before 1900s, there is very little evidence of garments that could be considered bras. In ancient history, there are mentions of a strip of cloth tied under the breasts to support and to reveal them, or strip of cloth tied around the breasts to flatten them.

The corset became popular starting in the 1500s, and its one function was to lift and shape breasts upward. The modern bra with its two separate cups was gradually developed from the corset in the early 20th century, in an attempt to manufacture a more comfortable underwear piece.

Today, the bra has "evolved" from simple underwear into an actual sexual garment that emphasizes the sexual nature of breasts. This can be readily seen, for example, by the terminology used to advertise bras: enticing, hot, ravishing, seducing, etc. It is no wonder feminists symbolically threw their bras into the trash in the 60s. Even today, going braless is sometimes connected with feminism.


Do you or your breasts really feel more comfortable with or without bras?

This would depend, first of all, on the breast size, and secondly, on the woman's habits. Very large and heavy-breasted women usually need to wear bras for support, and they feel pain and discomfort if they don't wear bras.

Women with small-to-medium size breasts, if they are used to wearing bras, probably feel a little uncomfortable without them. However, this is more a psychological issue and a question of habit: women tend to feel awkward or self-conscious without bras if they are used to wearing them. In fact, when a person gets used to automatically wearing bras, it's possible to not even notice or pay any attention to the slight discomfort from bras.

Thinking about it, can you sense any discomfort and/or tightness from your bra? When you take your bra off, do you feel something similar to the feeling when you have eaten your belly full at a restaurant, and you loosen your belt a little? Can you possibly even see little red marks on your skin after taking bra off? If you answer yes to these questions, your breasts may be trying to tell you something!


Bras and breast cancer risk

Bra-wearing has been linked to breast cancer in a study done by Sidney Ross Singer and Soma Grismaijer. They found, for example, that women who wore a bra 24 hours a day had a 113-fold increase in breast cancer incidence compared to women who wore bra less than 12 hours daily! They suggest that bras exert enough pressure to the breast and surrounding areas to inhibit the flow of lymph, which then causes toxins and other waste material to remain in the breasts instead of being flushed out.

Now, this effect may be due to the fact that most women just wear the wrong size bra that is too tight somewhere. No one has done any studies investigating the link between breast cancer and how well the woman's bra fits. Either way, for your breast health's sake it is better to avoid wearing bras whenever possible, and for those occasions when you do need one, get well-fitting bras.


Debate Round No. 1
little_penguin

Pro

What? How is this a response to the debate I opened up? It looks like you've just copied and pasted, from somewhere, the history of bras. Not only that, but it's a history which, in many cases, contains statements about women not needing to wear bras. How does argue AGAINST my claim that women should be able to go topless in public? So... I win already? Woo-hoo! It's my first debate here, too :)
coolmikeb

Con

to my words, you siad that girls should go topless. In which means that they shouldn't wear bras. Women already go topless like at a beach or when jogging. This is confusing why you choose this topic when it is already been made. Women have made the decision and they keep this decion. I say that you have not win.
Debate Round No. 2
little_penguin

Pro

little_penguin forfeited this round.
coolmikeb

Con

Clearly I have won this round of debate, for so that my fellow debater has fortified. For now I have nothing to debate and hopefully he will debate soon. This is all for me to say.

From the fortify, I say that I will have higher interest in getting votes. This may be my first win as a new person to this website
Debate Round No. 3
little_penguin

Pro

I did not respond because what you are saying makes no sense. You are incoherent. I made several good points arguments for the legality of toplessness for women. You responded by posting a plagiarized chunk of text about the history of the bra--and which actually concludes by implying that bras might not be good for us. (A commenter even showed us where you plagiarized it from.) You have not, so far, said a single thing refuting anything that I said. In fact, you haven't made a single comment that indicates that you actually oppose the right of women to go topless, period. Your comments actually sound like you agree with what I am saying.

As someone who has taught English (English as a Second Language, I mean) in several countries, I'm pretty good at telling when people are using babelfish to translate. Really odd things like "from the fortify" often indicate that. If you do not speak English, that's fine. For all I know, you might speak three other languages! However, you really can't go on debate.org and try to argue with someone--in English--if you don't speak it and don't even realize that you have no idea what the debate is even about.

If you want to debate me, then please look back to round one and actually respond to the things I said there. Otherwise, this is just ludicrous.
coolmikeb

Con

Well if you shall say that you do not understand this debate, then why do you still debate?? Just fortify the rest of the rounds if you like, just don't be shame for your lost. I have tried to understand what you have said. And according to what you said, "topless" qualifies as the definition of nude above the waist or hips: topless dancers Dictionary.com. Women have BEEN HAVE RIGHTS to HAVING NO SHIRT. I have uppercase those words for a reason. Since women already wear no shirt, then what is the point of this debate. according to what this debate topic was on, Should women be able to be topless, doesn't that mean no bra like men??? I see no point then in making this debate for such an already known cause. Women wear a shirt if they want to, but it is mostly mandatory to wear a bra. If I had knowing what you were debating about, I would've never done this debate. But for I still don't quit on debating such as you have for round 3. This is all I have to say for this round of debating.
Debate Round No. 4
little_penguin

Pro

You do not understand anything that am saying, and no one understands anything that YOU are saying, because you cannot speak English. It's not like English is the *greatest* language, but it does happen to be the language in which this debate is taking place. You cannot debate me here if you cannot speak English.

It is not correct that women (in America) can already go topless. Generally---except for in certain cities, like Eugene, Oregon---women in America will be arrested if the bare their breasts in public. Even breast-feeding with a towel covering your breast is frowned up. If you're talking about some country other than America, well... I should have specified "in America" right at the start, and in the future I will be more careful not to assume that we're all talking about America. Regardless, it should have been obvious that I wasn't posting about a country in which this was already legal. Moreover, I even referred to "American children" (in Round One).

You said "If I had knowing what you were debating about, I would've never done this debate. But for I still don't quit on debating." So, you admit that you did not know what the debate was about, yet think it is honorable to continue to pretend to argue with me even though you don't actually disagree with me?

Clearly, I have won this, but I am sad that I did not get to have an actual debate with someone. I put a lot of work into my Round One arguments and wondered how anyone could refute them.
coolmikeb

Con

From my words of speaking, you can't say that anyone doesn't now English once you start writing properly."You do not understand anything that am saying," has a grammar issue, and my first debate which I wrote, says clearly from a website, that women wear bras for religion, and their own safety laws. And anyways, why would women want to go topless? I mean like that is like saying that men should go out in no shorts or anything under. If you are going to describe topless, you should put a definition. At first I had thought that you fore said as topless, as if having no shirt covering the upper body. Not as in the definition I put in round 4. We were both clearly mistaken of our words, and this debate went in different directions. And what was the point of saying that I am not American, nor that id don't speak English

A debate isn't a mad riot to get over mad at when things don't go right. It was a confusing debate. I am willing to redo this debate against you with the definition of Nothing covering the body from bottom to above. And in round 1, the source that I cited in the debate must have gotten cut off or somethi9ng, because I had place my source. This is all I have to say to finish this debate.
Debate Round No. 5
45 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Grizzman2012 4 years ago
Grizzman2012
If u are talking about walking on this earth topless than i agree with u 100% but would u also agree that man and woman should be naked in public? let me know.
Posted by Calvincambridge 5 years ago
Calvincambridge
It most certainly should be legal but only for certain women depending on how desireable they are if they are not no shirt off if they are take your shirt off. That is my view on it.
Posted by quarterexchange 5 years ago
quarterexchange
I don't care about your morals. Most people believe it is morally wrong to allow women to go topless in public yet you obviously don't care about that.

It's funny because the same cultures that socially allow women to be barebreasted are primitive tribes located in 3rd world nations such as those in Africa. Also please show evidence showing that human fecal matter has caused a rise in disease in the area.

It probably won't fly but it's better than the idea you're proposing, allowing everyone to be an eye sore in public.

No the handicapped aren't necessarily "unattractive" but the disfigured are. So?

It doesn't really matter who the judges are. It may vary from judge to judge but all in all people have a pretty unanimous idea of who is and is not attractive.
Posted by darkkermit 5 years ago
darkkermit
Go ahead. However, since it's tempting to use semantics, the resolution should be:
"Women should have the right to go topless in public"
topless - exposure of the aerola or portion of breasts below the aerola.
(Technically, even if you are wearing a low cut top, you are still exposing a portion of the breasts)
Posted by little_penguin 5 years ago
little_penguin
Ack, very important word missing from my post to quarterexchange. It should read "as IF it's a moral thing," not "as it's a moral thing."
Posted by little_penguin 5 years ago
little_penguin
@darkkermit: Can I post the same round 1? It obviously was wasted on coolmikeb...
Posted by little_penguin 5 years ago
little_penguin
@darkkermit: Can I post the same round 1? It obviously was wasted on coolmikeb...
Posted by little_penguin 5 years ago
little_penguin
@quarterexchange: You're taking my words out of context. It's unfair to quote me as saying "I think defecating in public is just wrong" (as it's a moral thing) and edit out the "serious health hazard" part. There *are* places where people just poop wherever, and horrible diseases run rampant there.

As for your idea of having different laws about covering up depending on how ugly you are: Yes, it's "fair" if you do it for both genders, but it would never fly. I suppose people who are handicapped and disfigured are "ugly" too? And who gets to decide what counts as ugly or not? It's silly to even talk about.
Posted by darkkermit 5 years ago
darkkermit
If you want, I can debate you little_penguin that women do not have the right to go topless.
Posted by quarterexchange 5 years ago
quarterexchange
"I think defecating in public is just wrong"

And many people think women being topless is "just wrong".

"I think defecating in public is just wrong though and we know this by looking at areas of the world or towns where people DO just kind of "go wherever."

And the areas that allow women to be barebreasted are backwards, unadvanced, primitive and largely located in developing and 3rd world nations

" If all the stuff in all of our septic tanks was suddenly on the public streets... Yeah, serious health hazard."

1. You said that simply legalizing toplessness doesn't mean most people would go topless. Same goes for here, most people will still use restrooms.

2. For those that do use the streets as restrooms, it wouldn't be any more of a health hazard than it is now. The occasional human fecal matter littering the sidewalk wouldn't make the spit, chewed gum, and animal fecal matter covered sidewalk and less sanitary.

It would simply be awful on the nose. Just like allowing any women to go topless would be awful on the eyes.

Also, there is a large difference between an unattractive face and a large body. There is a difference between seeing an elderly lady's face than an elderly lady's bust, okay? So don't try to draw some sort of comparison between covering up someone's breasts and covering up someone's face due to attractiveness.

An old, obese, or wrinkled face, cannot be considered to be along the same lines as old, obese, and wrinkled breasts.

I say that people should be judged whether or not they would be public eye sores if they were to go topless regardless of gender. That's fair as well.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
little_penguincoolmikebTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Con did plagarize and failed to refute Pro's argument in the first round. In addition, his conduct (and understanding of the debate's resolution) was very lacking; I apologize to little_penguin for having to put up with coolmikeb...
Vote Placed by darkkermit 5 years ago
darkkermit
little_penguincoolmikebTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct point is tied. PRO forfeited a round and was quite rude to CON towards the end. However, CON plagiarized. PRO won the debate though.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
little_penguincoolmikebTied
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Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: Mike did a copy and paste, conceded in the middle, did not understand the resolution, etc. 2:0 Pro
Vote Placed by quarterexchange 5 years ago
quarterexchange
little_penguincoolmikebTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by TheFreeThinker 5 years ago
TheFreeThinker
little_penguincoolmikebTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Oh my goodness coolmikeb actually messaged me asking to vote for him! :D This debate was probably the funniest thing I have read in a year. I wish I could give little penguin 200 points for trying to argue with this person...