The Instigator
thestickmanful
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Rob Lucci vs Itachi

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,069 times Debate No: 43235
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

thestickmanful

Pro

Hello everybody . I'd love to start a debate here in this space . So as you can see , it will be a fight between 2 different characters , Rob Lucci ( One Piece ) , and Uchila Itachi ( Naruto / Naruto Shippuden ) . Come here trying to argue about who would win in a real fight . I will specify some rules and conditions for this incredible battle that we love to do :
- Genjutsu off = For the manipulation of chakra only works for those who have chakra , not Haki ( different elemental energy present in the universe of One Piece ) therefore something one does , the other can not do, beyond the circumstances and skills of each energy, which is individual in each universe ( ex : Dragon Ball = Ki = Reiatsu Bleach , Hunter x Hunter = Nen , among others ) . No illusions , genjutsus any position and anything that is based on manipulation of chakra in the brain , or something that is not in harmony with each other . We make connections between these universes honestly .
- Local Battle : Gizard Wasteland - It is where Goku Vegeta led to For Their battle in the Vegeta Saga . I chose this place because besides being a neutral environment for the two ( even if dry , no one will be harmed , because besides Itachi have skills to adapt to always have traveled to various places of the world the universe of Naruto ( on the basis that they always travel and the beginning of Shippuden , if I remember the exact episode 4 , Deidara and Sasori in puppet form , crossed a desert with no apparent problems , and walked away while Subaku kidnapped Gaara ) . Rob Lucci had arduous training and should normally stay away water by the absence of the ability to swim , even if it does not represent anything, it is logical to remember something , but of course , this is merely to justify my claim , and swim on condition that the user carries fruit on the water is more complicated, but there is nothing to do with the debate , perhaps we enter into conflict over but itself , let's see what we tackle ) .
- Rob Lucci that we will discuss is based on the current . Fighting skills , strength , powers that were present in his last appearance , just in episode 309 . The Itachi that will advance the Edo Tensei , since the ability to control and immortality is usually impossible to argue , ie the one shown before the Edo Itachi Itachi is valid , but is considered as the skills of Itachi Susano among others factors only immortality , regeneration is even excluded infinite stamina . The valid default is Itachi , but with all its real ) skills .

Anyway, after much specification , please come to good to discuss with me , I 'll be in this debate on the side of Rob Lucci because it seems more apt to win under the conditions of this battle that I judged to be fair , and that someone to support the side of Itachi to begin . That is a very good honest debate , showing much intelligence on both sides , I 've watched 2 animes , I'm in the current manga Naruto , and have witnessed all times when Lucci appears , for the record , I'm in the current One Piece anime ( but I know some spoilers of the manga also kkk ) . I'm of that , we must show what sources it is doubtful even for those who are right in the anime / manga remember , show sources of any context but that is to be decent or well proven in its basement Agreement. Let him who debate me be honest above all else , so be it and let's go .
Logical-Master

Con

I accept. And for fairness sake, I stipulate that both fighters are at their best, minus the conditions the instigator provided.
Debate Round No. 1
thestickmanful

Pro

Look, there is nothing wrong in this debate , my demands were just, things that happen in reality, I just took the genjutsu skills ( it is only the manipulation of chakra in the victim's brain, in the One Piece universe has no chakra only Haki , we should work on realities of individual proposals in each anime , never wanting to get their forces equalize , but , based on the what we have, so the genjutsu was ejected from the battle, as it not only with Lucci , but any character other than Naruto , the genjutsu would not work , it's no difference to name but a qualitative fitness, differences in origin and use) , expeculei the location of the fight and said that version would be based on both to make this battle .
No more, I'll let you start the sequence of arguments to simulate this battle . That if you accept my conditions , as before, the second time I have shown why these rules . If you do not accept these riddles , I will not make any debate , just going by the rules based on me that I did as I said . Of course , but I think they will be at their best , but the conditions of the versions I did for them are very fair , for exploiting its maximum in their best battle techniques . But of course , immortality , regeneration and maximum stamina are not the least bit honest . I only will this debate if you agree with my terms , otherwise only lose the chance to be able to stipulate a very interesting battle to fans of this series , we will probably all enjoy at the end ( or not kk ) .
Logical-Master

Con

Disclaimer: PRO misunderstood my R1 request. This has been worked out and resolved in the comment section. Without further ado, let us proceed!
================================================================================

Greetings members of DDO! My name is Logical-Master and I'm presiding over the contender position today. In today's debate, it is my contention that Itachi would best Rob Lucci in combat under the terms the instigator has provided. To demonstrate, I will provide multiple arguments demonstrating such.

Contention #1: Itachi could drown Rob Lucci.

Although PRO has crafted the terms of this debate as such that the fight between these two characters takes place in a barren wasteland, this is not a limitation for Itachi [1].As we can see for ourselves, Itachi doesn't need existing water sources to perform water release jutsus and can produce large amounts of water with ease. Attached is what a standard water dragon jutsu looks like. Note its collosal size. It is my contention that were Itachi to pour all of his chakra into this technique, he could flood the immediate area the instant the fight begins. And given Itachi's speed with jutsu [3], it's reasonable to conclude that he could pull off a collossal chakra pumped version of this technique the instant the battle began and before Mr. Lucci had time to process escape.

Even if Mr. Lucci is somehow quick enough to stop Itachi from pulling off this tactic successfully, Itachi could alternatively distract Rob Lucci with a shadow clone. As noted, Itachi's speed with jutsu is incredible. Even if he is barred from using genjutsu in this battle, like any standard Naruto shinobi, he could use smoke bombs or incidenary devices to add to his deceptive strategies. No matter how you look at it, Mr.

Because Mr. Lucci is a devil fruit user, his weakness is being submerged in water.[4]. Thus, Mr. Lucci would be all but vanquished while submerged in a large volume of water, making this a flawless victory for the genius sharingan wielder!

Contention #2: Itachi could burn Rob Lucci alive with the amaretsu.

Itachi's ameretsu is a technique that produces flames as hot as the sun's surface. In short, they are effectivally capabele of burning through anything.[5]. If Lucci is hit by this technique, he is finished. There is nothing he can do to recover aside from quickly severing whatever body part the flames have began to burn.


Contention #3: Itachi could seal Lucci away forever with the Susano'o

Itachi could seal Rob Lucci away just as he did Orochimaru. Itachi's susano' is equiped with the sword of totsuka. This blade enables him to seal away anyone that the balde touches. [6]. Since Lucci has no defense against sealing techniques, the moment he even so much as touches the sword, he'll be sealed away.


And that'll do it for now.

Sources:

[1] http://www.mangapanda.com... (Naruto 587, page 11).
[2] http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net...
[3] http://www.mangapanda.com...(Naruto 142, page 9)
[4] http://onepiece.wikia.com...
[5] http://www.mangapanda.com...
[6] http://www.mangapanda.com...


Debate Round No. 2
thestickmanful

Pro

Honestly, your arguments are very good and awesome, I was impressed with the sequence of conveyances that would Itachi victory. But in itself have some challenges for you, get this:
1 - As you can see Rob Lucci will greatly benefit from this environment, it would be great for all my objections, this added to his impressive skills. But this part, I have numerous forms to contest. First the elements created from chakra are not ind"nticos or are always different natural elements, let's see Hyouton element (Ice Release), is virtually immune to fire, which is not natural, so those jutsus that contains these elements are totally different matter if they are not so basic in nature. In the world of One Piece, only what comes from the energy of the sea weakens users fruit, example: fruit Kairouseki weakens users who touch it because it emits the same energy Mar. That is, only what emits energy from the sea can weaken them. The water that is emitted from the chakra is already different in natural question, now imagine her not sending the same energy as the sea issues. Second there are also environments privileges that Lucci can take possession. Large rocks of almost 15 meters high (see the video of Goku vs Vegeta in the sources) would be of good help (there are even some larger than this well). Even if Itachi does something that is impossible to create the Ocean as well as Kisame does (which is something for a few), Rob Lucci would use the technique that allows Geppou beating so fast in the air that makes it compress and become solid, it could be jumping upstairs to the water to submerge the floor because we know that even in dry arid environments absorb water quickly. In the case of the water dragon he would use Rangyouku, making numerous cuts dragon, making Itachi losing possession in itself. The speed at which processes a jutsu Itachi is completely below the rate of perceived Itachi along its physical speed (see sources in its speed with the Soru technique). And besides Lucci could easily verify the clone of Itachi in any direction, technical Kami-E can do so much to have a perception beyond the normal and quickly attack or dodge.

2 - Really a great argument, but this argument can be brought down with the speed of perception and physical speed Rob Lucci. Let's look at some facts, Raikage with his super speed and perception can quickly realize and dodge even before Amaterasu hit him. Lightning moves approximately 4.4 " 10.5 m / s or 462 m / s (1663 km / h or. This is 112 times faster than mach 1. That is, this speed is between Mach 1 and 2. Knowing that the speed 'll 300,000,000 km / s or 1.08 billion km / h, this is the speed Lucci as noted on Wikia (this is mach 880,000).'s speed perception Raikage should be greater than your speed. yet itself the speed of perception with Lucci Kami-e is much larger than Raikage and his own physical speed (assuming that your perception is greater than the speed, Lucci can detect something faster than its speed of light), knowing that Luffy was close to its speed in their fight. shirk He and kill Itachi so fast that it would be virtually impossible to think, to think, would be dead (Expeculando because everything here is approximate, do not take this as fact, only their speeds in comparison and response times, perception in this case).

3. In this same source of Totsuka no Tsurugi shows that you are sealed and sucked. But I realize that in the Naruto wikia page there is a note, see:
"The seal works if you touch the tip of the sword. The sword takes the chakra in physical matter, sucking whole bodies chakra."
Here is found only bodies of chakra can be absorbed, at least all made of chakra or living creatures, containing this spiritual energy. The question is: Lucci does not contain chakra as a source of spiritual energy, but Haki Haki again the contradiction and Chakra (See the sources).. But let's consider that the sword has maximum effects on Lucci, yet, as seen speed Lucci, would be impossible even for Itachi to see such speed, I for one do not think Itachi with Sharingan can predict movements of Raikage, imagine a individual who goes over 880,000 times faster. (considering Lucci mach speed of light and Raikage between mach 1 and 2 as already confirmed). Want an idea, even Gai-sensei or Lee could reach that speed with eight gates, because the difference in speed is very high. Until then Lucci could take a break and Roukougan Susano Itachi and attacks him almost instantly with a Shigan or physical blows too (Strength Lucci was stronger than Luffy, Luffy let's doubling a city with Crocodile, Lucci in season has matched its strength in second gear, and managed to cut a building with only leg strength, a cut like that Kaku can do).

Sources:

http://naruto.wikia.com...

http://onepiece.wikia.com...

http://onepiece.wikia.com...

http://onepiece.wikia.com...

http://en.wikipedia.org... (See the properties)

http://naruto.wikia.com...
Logical-Master

Con

Contention #1: Itachi could drown Rob Lucci.

1) PRO says Itachi’s water dragon jutsu would be ineffective since One Piece devil fruit users are only weakened by sea water, however, Eichiro Oda (author of One Piece) has made it quite clear that any form of water is sufficient to activate a devil fruit user’s weakness. [1]. Thus, all Itachi needs to do is have the water dragon swallow Mr. Lucci whole and maintain the dragon in its form or create a collosal water dragon that fills the immediate area while keeping the water from dispersing.

2) PRO says that Lucci could use his moon walk (geppo to escape Itachi’s attack. The problem with this argument is that Itachi can freely manipulate the water dragon. Were Lucci to ‘skip into the air’, Itachi could aim the dragon into the air. All Itachi’s needs to do to nullify Mr. Lucci completely is to submerge at least a significant portion of his body inside the dragon. Once Lucci is rendered immobile, Itachi can kill Mr. Lucci at his leisure.

3) PRO says Itachi could use his tempest kick (rangyouku) to make enormous cuts into the dragon. However, we must keep in mind that this is a water dragon we’re talking about. A dragon that only possesses form as a result of Itachi’s chakra. Since there is nothing to indicate that Mr. Lucci could cut through chakra, the water dragon would be unaffected by his assault. We see a similar version of this phenomena in One Piece whenever a non haki-user attempts to attack an elemental devil fruit user. Thus, Rob Lucci could use as many tempest kicks as he wanted to. They’d all fly right through the dragon, as if the dragon were nothing more than thin air.

4) PRO presents us with no evidence that Lucci’s shave technique (soru) makes him faster than Itachi by any measure, thus you should disregard his assertion on that regard until he does.

5) PRO also fails to present any evidence that Lucci’s paper art technique (kami-e) would grant him the ability to distinguish Itachi’s shadow clones. There isn’t any as this technique cannot be used to enhance perception, much less to the degree that PRO indicates.[2]. This is especially harmful to PRO’s case because if Itachi can freely use his shadowclones, he can pull off any of his techniques against Lucci without Lucci be any the wiser. While two clones distract Lucci, the third can finish him off with any one of the instant-kill strategies I’ve offered here today.


Contention #2: Itachi could burn Rob Lucci alive with the amaretsu.

1) PRO argues that since the Raikage dodged the Amaterasu against Sasuke, that Lucci could dodge the Amaterasu against Itachi. However, right of the bat, this argument makes some unjustifiable assumptions. (1) It assumes that Sasuke’s proficiency and control of the Amaterasu (at the time he used it) is the same as Sasukes. There’s no indication of this and plenty of indication that Sasuke’s skills and abilities were greatly inferior to Itachi’s at the time.[3] (2) It assumes that Itachi is going to just sit there and use the attack while Lucci is waiting on him to attack, like Sasuke did against the Raikage. [4] Itachi could just as easily use the attack while keeping Lucci guessing with smokebombs and shadowclones. It doesn’t matter how fast you are if you don’t know when the attack is coming and from where.

2) PRO also provides us with some numbers, claiming that Lucci can move 880,000x mach speed. However, not only is this number nowhere on the One Piece wiki, but there’s absolutely nothing to support it in the One Piece manga.[5] If he were that fast, he would have had no trouble killing Luffy here, much less giving Luffy time to speak while he’s running towards him at full speed.[6]. I request that PRO present some serious evidence that Lucci or Luffy were anywhere near the speed of light, a speed which Luffy had absolutely no capacity to deal with several story arcs later when he was much faster and stronger.[7] PRO is simply wrong in every shape and fashion.


Contention #3: Itachi could seal Lucci away forever with the Susano'o

1) PRO suggests that Itachi’s sealing-sword only works on beings with chakra and requests us to consider whether Lucci has chakra. However, members of DDO, we need not consider this discussion. As stated by Orochimaru himself, the attack works on anyone the sword pierces.[8]

2) PRO once again harps on and on about speed, but Sasuke was able to counter the speedy Raikage just fine despite his speed and even got his arm burned off by the amaretsu in the process. Their battle had no conclusion, but it’s more or less undisputed that Itachi was on a completely level. What PRO keeps forgetting is that Itachi’s eyes enable him to anticipate the movements of speed opponents just fine.

3) PRO says that Lucci could counter with the shigan and rokougan all day. However, this wouldn’t’ do him any good. Itachis Susano’o comes equipped with the Yata Mirror. Thanks to it, he can ward off any attack, making him invincible when its used.[9] PRO also claims that Lucci was stronger than Luffy, who could shake a city, but I would request that he present evidence that he was stronger than (or strong as) Luffy before we consider this notion. It was Luffy’s superior strength that gave him the win against Lucci.

Sources:

[1]http://tinyurl.com... (noting that “people who have eaten a Devil Fruit are "hated" by the sea, and cannot swim. The "sea" here can refer to anything from rivers, pools and baths to any kind of standing water. On a worldwide level, they are all the "sea”).

[2] http://tinyurl.com...

[3] http://tinyurl.com...

[4] http://tinyurl.com...

[5] http://tinyurl.com...

[6] http://tinyurl.com... (@ 3:15)

[7] http://tinyurl.com... (note Kizaru calling Luffy too slow)

[8] http://tinyurl.com...

[9] http://tinyurl.com...

Debate Round No. 3
thestickmanful

Pro

1 - Yes , I say That would be ineffective because water formed by chakra , top it off with different properties of ordinary water would not bring problems to the user fruit . Those Oda quoted sources from Which users would suffer yes , but note That It is only natural sources emit the same Which energy from the sea , this is the point .

2 - You ignores evasion que Lucci could do pretty much faster than performing the jutsu Itachi , he Could catch off guard while he performs this jutsu que Relatively requires concentration .

3 - I noticed here That You skirted many possibilities closer to reality . Still it does not cease to be the element you just que form . Even created by chakra , is an element type , the more the less . You did not leave any evidence que this could happen , or happened in some part of Naruto / Naruto Shippuden , his argument is disregarded .

4 - On the speed unfortunately I lost the thread you replied to Lucci 's Soru speed . But is there a topic down there que shows the superiority of speed Lucci on Itachi . Here are some facts for an object near us despare"er our eyes is 200 mph ( see website lifesmith saying about working the vision processing speed 170 mph ) . If Lucci has 4000 times the normal capacity of the person much strength as for general skills , it is Necessary to state que his speed Should be 4000 times more inclusive. In the fight Luffy in leopard mode hybrid was shown him traveling 20 meters in an instant snapshots 30 meters and a speed much higher than anything shown Itachi . Example : In his fight against Sasuke , Which were exploited almost all his abilities , shown there was nothing Compared to Lucci in his last fight .

5 - Yes , Kami -E can not detect what was the real Itachi , but he Could very well anticipate Their attacks from anywhere . You disregards the fruit que Allows turning Lucci Leopard Hybrid and have heightened Their senses ( smell , hearing , vision ... ) And be able to know very well Where They Are Coming attacks . Could Lucci Luffy quickly shoot the shigans he did in the distance and delete clones Itachi . With Their hearing to know where Itachi and pick guard , cutting in half One of Those rocks with Rangyouku Itachi would probably be hidden .

2 - Contender

1 - CON comments that Sasuke's Amaterasu is inferior to Itachi . It might be true , but there is no driving to this claim , because in chapter 478 confirms that only Tsukyomi was lower , not Amaterasu , his argument has just been disregarded .

2 - Again , missed the topic that he outlined this issue , however , just induce Lucci speed through the website I left as evidence ( which as I said is faster than any kind of clue that we have seen over Itachi , if any objection , show proof . 's speed Luffy tries to debunk that you should consider that he was not at his peak , he was very tired and almost defeated.

3 - Contender

1 - This is invalid because it works with any one, in his universe .

2 - Itachi could not see the movements of Raikage is a difference too high , let's see how Sasuke left in the fight , even if Itachi is alarmingly higher the speed of perception of Sasuke , but still it makes no difference if the speed of the Raikage is a divide the difference , it would be difficult to read the movements of Raikage still. As shown in the Sasuke vs Itachi fight, was not such a big difference , were matched up if I may say .

3 - The proof is in the first fight they had , Luffy defeated Lucci quickly with just a common scam . Luffy in Gear 2 is already a major difference , just like Leopard Lucci is way too. The evidence is there in the sources . In short , Lucci and Luffy without any superiority of shapes , Lucci proved stronger , but their ultimate levels are matched , pretty much what we saw Luffy Lucci would be about what they could do.

http://onepiece.wikia.com...

400 times 200 is 80,000 which is mach 105.1

proof: http://www.unitarium.com...

so there you have it

a mid tier in OP was triple digit mach speed.

http://www.lifesmith.com... first number

http://lounge.moviecodec.com...

https://www.youtube.com...
Logical-Master

Con

Contention #1: Itachi could drown Rob Lucci.


1) PRO claims that the water Itachi produces is not natural, thus would not weaken Rob Lucci, were he submerged in it. He claims that only ornary water is effective in weakening a devil fruit user. However, he provides no proof of this. Look at the statement I provided in the previous round, Oda plainly says "The sea here can refer to anything from rivers, pools and baths to any kind of standing water. On a worldwide level, they are all the "sea” What PRO says is baseless conjecture and should not be considered until he provides evidence to show otherwise.


2) PRO claims that Lucci's superior speed would enable him to avoid the water dragon and is thus relying on his fourth counter-point in this contention. See my response accordingly. Furthermore, also note my arguments regarding shadow clones and smokebombs. Even on the unlikely chance that Lucci was faster than Itachi, any form of distraction would be sufficient to bypass Mr. Lucci's speed.

3) PRO claims that I've presented no evidence that Itachi's water dragon would be impervious to Lucci's kicks. PRO is quite mistaken as my argument is premised upon common sense. What PRO is arguing is that Lucci could use his tempest kicks to slice through the water dragon. However, one can verify the truth of my argument by getting a knife and slashing at the water in a swimming pool. If this somehow causes the water to dissapear, I'll gladly concede on PRO's argument here. Otherwise, the tempest kick is simply not going to have any effect on a massive water dragon jutsu. The blades will fly right through the water.

4) PRO claims that because Lucci's power level (douriki) has been measured at 4000, this proves he is faster than Itachi. However, there are multiple problems with PRO's analysis.

First, it should be noted that "doriki is basically the physical power of someone."[1] Physical strength tells us nothing about physical speed. I can bench press 400 pounds, but that does not give me the ability to keep up with Olympic level sprinters in a track race.

Second, Mr. Lucci's doriki was measured at 4000 whereas the average marine was measured at 10.[2] Meaning Lucci is not "4000 times the normal capacity of the person much strength as for general skills" [sic]. Rather, Mr. Lucci is simply 400 times stronger than the average human male marine. Moreover, I don't know of any ordinary human that can run 200 miles per hour.

Third, pretty much everything PRO has said is baseless. We don't have the ability to measure Mr. Lucci's precise speed. This stuff about measuring the amount of frames on screen (something he does not support with actual evidence) is classic art fallacy and can be used to come to wide number of absurd conclusions. For example, Hercule from DBZ must have super-speed, according to PRO, since he can "vanish" in plain sight.[3] However, the narrative in DBZ establishes that Hercule does not have super-speed. The lesson to be learned is that attempting to reach conclusionson the basis of animation alone is illogical,hence the art fallacy. It may just be the author's intent to say that X is moving pretty fast. How likely is it that the animators factor in time/distance/speed equations when producing these series? Unless PRO has something the author has actually given us, I'm going to have to insist that you disregard his baseless comments on this matter.


5) PRO concedes that the Kami-E cannot be used to detect the real Itachi, but that he could still anticipate attacks from anywhere. He bases this on Lucci's leopard form granting him enhanced smell, hearing and vision. However, not only have we never seen Lucci's display such abilities while in this form, but none of that explains how he's going to determine whether Itachi is real or a Shadowclone. You can have the best sight, smell and vision in the world. None of that makes a difference when against shadowclones, especially when up against master practioner like Itachi. Shadowclones are a chakra based technique and Lucci does not possess the ability to detect and distinguish chakra. Not to mention that there's nothing stopping a clone from erecting an impervious shield with the amaterasu or the susano'o.


Contention #2: Itachi could burn Rob Lucci alive with the amaretsu.

1) When I cited chapter 478 of Naruto, I was making the point that we have reason to believe that Sasuke's proficiency with the mangekyou techniques was inferior to Itachi's. The fact that Sasuke's tsukyomi is inferior is ample evidence of this. Not to mention that Itachi has had the mangekyou for a longer period of time and is overall a more experienced shinobi. There is ample reason to believe that Itachi could make better use of these techniques than Sasuke could during his battle with the Raikage.

2) PRO reiterates his claims about Lucci's speed, but as I've pointed out, the reasoning he uses to determine his speed is flawed and unsupported by actual evidence. As I've insisted, this stuff about Lucci being nigh-lightspeed is quite baseless and doesn't explain how a powerless Luffy can utter a full sentence while Lucci, in close range of Luffy, is charging at him at full speed.[4].

PRO further says that you should disregard my evidence since Lucci was not at his peak, but as the fight demonstrates afterwards, both Lucci and Luffy still had plenty of fight in them afterwards. Are we really to believe that Lucci has gone from moving "near the speed of light" to moving substantially slower than the speed of sound (i.e. Luffy uttering a full sentence before Lucci could reach him)? Or is it simply much more likely that Lucci is simply nowhere near as fast as PRO would have you believe? Use your common sense, members of DDO.


Contention #3: Itachi could seal Lucci away forever with the Susano'o


1) Members of DDO, all you need do is read what Orochimaru said in the link I provided. He said nothing about "his universe" and the author gives us no reason to believe that it could only work in "his universe." Again, PRO is simply making baseless assertions. Moreover, by PRO's logic, I could reach the conclusion that Lucci's powers only work in "his universe." It's a double standard that defies common sense.

2) The greatest disproof of PRO"s argument about the Sasuke vs Raikage fight is the Sasuke vs. the Raikage fight itself.[5] Here, we see Sasuke battling the Raikage just fine while using nothing more than the Amaterasu and the Susano'o. In the process, the Raikage loses an arm and nearly a leg, whereas Sasuke comes out of the battle unscathed. If not for Gaara's interference, the Raikage would have lost his leg much like he had lost his arm. Since its uncontested that Itachi was superior to Sasuke at that time, just imagine if it had been Itachi facing the Raikage? Use your common sense, members of DDO. Itachi is clearly capable of battling speedy opponents of ridiculous speed.

3) There is absolutely no indication that Lucci was just as strong as Luffy. Think about it folks. PRO is claiming that Luffy was strong enough to shake a city in an earlier story arc. Lucci's own stated doriki proves he isn't that strong. His doriki was 4000, meaning he was 400 times stronger than an ordinary human marine. Does anyone seriously believe that 400, 4000 or even 40,000 ordinary men could shake an entire city? Of course not. Lucci was not as strong as Luffy, but he did have more experience, greater skill and greater speed (through most of the fight). Even when Luffy amped his strength with Gear 3, Lucci responded by using speed and strategy (i.e. exploiting Luffy's weakness against sharp attacks). These are viable means of engaging Luffy in combat.

Sources:

[1] http://onepiece.wikia.com...
[2] http://www.mangapanda.com...

[3] http://tinyurl.com...


(@ 3:17)

[4] http://tinyurl.com...
(@ 3:15)

[5] http://tinyurl.com...


Debate Round No. 4
thestickmanful

Pro

1 ) First , you are right when you said it might be water pools , the sea , the baths, but ownership of elements created starting chakra are not identical properties of a natural element , it was seen in the fight Sasuke vs Killer Bee where the "electricity " created from Sasuke ` s chakra does not behave the same way as a normal electricity because instead of just electrify the two swords , Sasuke managed to cut in half the sword Suigetsu ` s sincerely do not know how many times I will repeat that the evidence is in the anime , I have already given you more than 3 concrete evidence so far , all shown in the anime and spent the sources more than once , just for the record .

2 - CON states that my hypothesis is improbable on the speed Lucci , but makes the same mistake does not confirm that he would be deceived by the shadow clones and smoke bombs because even in base form , it has heightened senses , he could see Luffy hundred meters chasing him , and Robin Spandam even before any of them hear the footsteps of Luffy . And as said , his speed in base form was shown in his fight with Luffy , yes , Itachi surpassed anywhere in the anime shown , even Sasuke vs Itachi (who did not notice anything in that fight so fast that can match Lucci he may have a greater potential , but I work on evidence , sorry ) . Itachi can even see with your Lucci Soru using the Sharingan , but nothing says he could wriggle his throat to be pierced with a Shigan . His logic was very good , but unfortunately nothing we can use as evidence of speed that we have several Lucci . ( Luffy against Lucci , the Soru technique and its performance in Enies Lobby are more than enough ) .

3 - I see that you made R03;R03;a mistake , the Rankyouku it is not a simple cut released by the feet , it is a mass of compressed air to touch some body does not cut in a linear fashion , but how you blew your own way . Evidence is when Luffy is bombarded by him in his fight with Lucci , he was not cut , just thrown away . Its premise is desbacada because in a pool if I could fire a rankyouku in a pool , it would explode in the way that I played and bubbles and the water would come back to that part . Even if it's chakra that Itachi is dominating , is in the form of water , and works like water at that time for a spell , called jutsu , if a Suiton ninjutsu style . This would cause an explosion in the water dragon and Itachi would lose some control over it by having dispersed at that time Lucci could move quickly to some strategic place and shoot Shigans that are highly lethal ( Luffy was bombarded by flying Shigans which has a power greater than that of a bullet in his fight with Lucci and bleeding heavily , with cannonballs and guns have no effect , and the cast of naruto is not ready for firearms we own ) or even with his physical strength , that is explosively high ( compared to being with Luffy ) .

4 - This is the only way to have an approximation of the speed Lucci , after all, your CON argument was totally wrong because this has to do with the capabilities of Lucci and not to go in the bank and know my speed . The Doriki is the ability to fight not only strength , is measured by the strength, but also part of their general skills , of course , does not represent the speed , but it is something we can hold of reasoning and try to make an approximation , as I said, I do not need to prove the speed Lucci so here , just to show that its speed is greater than Itachi .

5 - It is not so difficult to lay first seem , but not for those who know . Look , Lucci needs only one attack to defeat the shadow clones , no matter how many come , a lethal attack would be enough, a punch or kick the Lucci could break an arm even with a good defense , but Itachi has skills on superhuman , seen in his fight against Sasuke and Naruto with Killer Bee and Pain , but nothing compared to a person who has been training exceptionally long with a small fruit that can increase all physical and sensory skills . In the case of Susano , Houkougan that emits a very powerful pressure could break the Susano , the strength of Luffy has much to do with the Raikage and Tsunade to the 2 already were compared ( no matter who is stronger , were matched ) , which were sufficient to achieve break Susano Madara . Do not know if I could with just one blow, but blows and various Houkougan sufficient to break the Susano until he recovers , because q is a technique consumes much chakra and tires , Lucci would come with everything because so shown, it is not with no loss after using this powerful technique that he himself created .

Contention 2 - let's go

1 - Yes there is a problem with that , I was not referring to this point , even I know that, why argue against facts right ?

2 - I used this call yes, but forgot to post the evidence that was present in a forum , then I grant you this point, but does not change the fact that the speed of Lucci against Itachi , my point was not to prove that it will speed the light, but rather to prove the veracity of their superior speed.

I think not, let's see it members , the reason who sees One Piece , who 've seen and know Lucci , has seen his appearances , etc. , know that driving force and speed , always apont"o Lucci more than Itachi , of course , driving past achievements , not expecula""es silly , think well , who is stronger or faster between the two ? Was actually shown that Itachi is faster than him? Or it would appear that Lucci is faster than Itachi ? Use your common sense .

Contention 3 -

1 - Oops , it looks like you made R03;R03;a mistake here . We will travel a bit to reality members and CON . When we say something , we never thought that the Universe is apart . For anyone reading comics as I know there is the multiverse = many universes and dimensions , but PRO ? For quotes that? For if we correlate the Universes , we see that there is an interconnected animes Multiverse , I see that all anime fiction are side by side in a multiverse . When you said something , never thinks of something beyond it, because you do not know the existence , therefore does not specify anything. Again , it seals Orochimaru said anything, but will he saddlery something they do not know ? Will ? Think about it , the evidence here only says he would seal something , but in his universe , the same thing in the universe of Naruto , sakura naruto in classic affirms that all human beings have chakra , and if I say elsewhere have Ki , Reiatsu and others, as I showed in the comments, they are not the same thing , the same way it is not only how it all works . His argument did not seem very good CON .

2 - Very wrong , this time could not endure . CON honestly never even Itachi deflect an attack from Raikage , he never demonstrated such speed, Lucci has been demonstrated in numerous struggles times , all the skills were demonstrated , you do not understand it ? The Soru technique is reasonably able to stop numerous speeds of various characters from the Naruto cast , Soru is extremely faster than Itachi , he would not keep such speed that way .

3 - Not really, you are denying facts already stated in the anime and manga . Who watches the episode and already spent 126 or 127 are well aware that Luffy does have a force that has opened a giant hole 200 meters high approx . Go all common sense , Luffy was able to make a huge crater and bend a city , Lucci equaled the strength of Luffy in their fight, so when they clash of equals eager to fight . This is true , I have nothing more to say at this point , no point you want to refute something that happened .

Proof:
https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.youtube.com...

naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Itachi_Uchiha

http://onepiece.wikia.com...
Logical-Master

Con

Contention #1: Itachi could drown Rob Lucci.


1) Again, PRO offers nothing to dispute Eichiro's Oda's claim that any kind of water is sufficient to paralyze a devil fruit user. He talks about Sasuke using "electricity" to cut swords in half, disregarding the intense heat electricity can produce when in contact with an object. As one can see plainly during the fight, the lightning swords melted through another sword.[1]. No matter how one looks it, this different properties argument is unpersuasive. If Rob Lucci gets caught in Itachi's water dragon, he's done.

2) PRO claims that Lucci must have heightened sense since he heard Luffy "hundreds of meters away" in base form. This never happened though. What PRO is referring to is an instance where Luffy was screaming at the top of his lungs while in the hallway adjacent to Lucci and Spandam. Both Lucci and Spandam heard him. PRO has given us no reason to believe that Lucci would be able to see past clever use of these. This is dangerous to PRO's case. While Lucci wastes time on a shadow clone, Itachi could catch him off guard with a water dragon, amateresu or the susano'o. And given the speed with which Itachi could pull off these techniques, even if you were to believe that Lucci really did have heightened senses, it wouldn't be enough to overcome Itachi's tactics.

PRO says a couple of things about speed, but none of it is persuasive. Sasuke, who was inferior to Itachi at the time, was able to see, counter and just about best the Raikage, someone who literally moved at the speed of lightning. PRO has given us no evidence that Lucci is faster than the Raikage and no reason to believe that Itachi wouldn't be able to keep up with Lucci, assuming Lucci was able to deal with Itachi's shadow clone and smoke bomb tactics.

3) As PRO points out, the tempests kick (rankakyu) is a mass of compressed air. That's just it though. It's compressed. This is how it's able to cut through solid objects. Nonetheless, due to its compression, it doesn't blow anything way as PRO seems to be suggesting. This stuff about "explosions" and what not is simply unsupported. Again, get a knife, try "cutting" the water in a pool and see what happens. If the pool "explodes", I'll gladly concede PRO's argument and reimburse you on the pool. Water is nigh-intangible. Chakra is completely intangible. Lucci can fire tempest kicks all night and day. He's never going to "cut" through the water dragon, much less make it "explode."

4) PRO is mistaken when he claims that his methods are the only way to approximate Lucci's speed. PRO can also do as fans do and simply ask the author. The author answers question on a regular basis. Using pseudo-scientific calculations (i.e. measuring the number frames on a screen) is simply injudicious and unreliable, as I've pointed out. Tom can appear like he's chasing Jerry for miles while inside the confines of an ordinary house, only for us to later see that the house is of ordinary size.

PRO is absolutely wrong about doriki measuring fighting ability rather than strength; the word strength is used to describe it.[2][3]

5) PRO claims that Lucci only needs one attack to defeat Itachi shadow clones.

A) This is an assumption he fails to support. Any of Itachi's shadow clones could easily use the Susano'o as a defense. As I pointed out earlier in the debate, Itachi's Suasano'o has a shield (yata mirror) that makes him impervious to all attacks. Lucci's physical abilities would be useless. He says the Rokougon could break the susano'o, but presents no proof of this and provides us with no response to the manga citation I provided earlier, claiming that Itachi's susano'o can reflect any attack. Physical strength is irrelevant.[4]

B) The shadow clones could use smoke bombs to hinder Lucci's eyesight, making it even more difficult to attack them.

C) The shadow clones are simply a distraction. It doesn't matter whether Lucci finishes them off or not. Even one instance of wasting his time on a shadow clone means instant defeat as Itachi could use that instant to pull off any of the instant-kill strategies I've listed here today.


Contention #2: Itachi could burn Rob Lucci alive with the amaretsu.



1) Since PRO doesn't address the rebuttal I've offered here, he concedes that his original claim (that because the Raikage dodged the amaterasu against Sasuke, he'd be able to dodge it against Itachi) is erroneous.

2) PRO admits that Lucci is not anywhere near the speed of light or sound, but still insist that he's faster than Itachi. Even if that was true, Itachi is still more than capable of dealing with speedy opponents. Sasuke, was inferior to Itachi at the time, was able to fight and nearly defeat the Raikage, who, as you can see in the video I posted, was literally as fast as lightning.

Lightning is 224,000 miles per hour and 3700 miles per second.[5] Sound is 767 miles per hour.[6] Making the Raikage much faster than Lucci, who we know is slower than sound based on the video clip I provided showing a weakened Luffy being able to utter a full sentence before Lucci, who was already in close range, could reach him. Heck, based on those speed differences, if anyone has to worry about a massive speed disadvantage, it's Lucci!


Contention #3: Itachi could seal Lucci away forever with the Susano'o

1) Whether there is a multiverse or not, PRO has simply provided us with no evidence that Orochimaru (or the author) was only talking about "his universe." Everything he has said is baseless conjecture. There are no devil fruit in the Naruto universe nor is there such a thing as rokushiki. Either we are to believe that none of Rob Lucci's abilities apply here or we're to conclude that PRO is just trying to have his cake and eat it.

2) We do not need to see Itachi deflect an attack from the Raikage to know that Itachi could deflect an attack from the Raikage. We know that Itachi let Sasuke kill him, we know that Sasuke's skills (at the time) were inferior to Itachi's, based on comments like the one I posted, we know that Itachi had more shinobi experience than Sasuke. If Sasuke could keep up with the Raikage, so could Itachi. PRO has no argument here.

3) PRO completely ignores the proof I provided to confirm that Lucci wasn't strong enough to shake a city. Again, the average marine has a doriki of 10. Lucci's doriki was 4000. It takes more than 400 men to shank an entire city. Therefore, Lucci was not as strong as Luffy. PRO can deny this all he wants, but the facts stand. Both Luffy and Lucci had different assets during their battle, but we don't conclude that they were equals on each of their assets. Lucci had decades of fighting experience and formal training. Luffy had herculean strength and immunity to blunt damage. Ultimately, Luffy's herculean strength prevailed.

Conclusion


You heard a lot throughout today's case, members of DDO, but the bottom line is that each of the strategies I've listed are sufficient to instantly annihilate Rob Lucci. The basis of PRO's entire case is that Lucci is fast. Mr. Lucci is speed wouldn't allow him to prevail in battle against Itachi Uchiha. Itachi is more than capable of dealing with adversaries much faster than Rob Lucci and is very fast in his own right. Itachi also has various means of nullifying Lucci's attacks. His Susano'o's yata mirror grants him invulnerability to all attacks and Itachi could also trick Mr. Lucci with shadow clones and smokes. Remember, all Itachi needs is one instant to pull off any of the strategies I've offered here today. The instant he does so, Rob Lucci is finished.

Thanks for the debate!

Vote PRO!

Best regards,

Logical-Master


Sources:

[1] http://tinyurl.com...
[2] http://www.mangapanda.com...
[3] http://www.mangapanda.com...
[4] http://tinyurl.com...
[5] http://www.komonews.com...
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org...


Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by thestickmanful 3 years ago
thestickmanful
Ok, but still the purpose of their equality of spiritual energies, in my view, remains equivocal, primarily because it is our expecula""o, we must work with what we have through facts, invent something to strengthen our point of view, we are not being fair right? I do not do it to defend Lucci more than Itachi, I do it simply because it is the facts we have, no one ever said being equal, any mangaka that I know at least, we must take into account all these differences, not in name, but of power, and its origins. In this matter, that his fight against Goku, there would be no fight, you can not use real things with fictitious things. You do not win because there would be no fight.
Posted by Logical-Master 3 years ago
Logical-Master
Nope, chakra is energy inherent in all humans in the Naruto verse. The author simply uses the word chakra. I have no intention of debating this point endlessly, primarily in light of my first reason, which is that this sort of logic defeats the purpose of having these "who would win" discussions. Seriously, if me and Goku had to fight, I'd win since Goku's powers are fictional! Seriously, just no!
Posted by thestickmanful 3 years ago
thestickmanful
But this is your deduction. Let us see the flaw in your argument: Genjutsu is manipulating chakra in the victim's brain . A person could have a different energy and fight each other without problems , using any attack that does not contradict with logic. In the case of Superman , Goku does not handle the Ki for example, or controls the ki of others, only uses their own ki . Superman does not have that power , but the point is not to win but to possess. Superman has some bigger than Goku's physical skills , but lacks Ki . Goku can not do anything with some action that manipulates Ki Superman because he has not. This is the point . In this case , everything is different , what they can do with this energy , how it could have arisen , how it works , how it works , properties of this energy , whether it will change or not the spirit , etc. . The energies are individual in their universe , we could never make multiple comparisons that contradict with another universe .
Posted by Logical-Master 3 years ago
Logical-Master
That said, I don't believe your reasoning in regards to genjutsu actually follows. First, the old "two different universes" argument defeats the purpose of having these conversations in the first place. It's like saying that Goku cant defeat Superman because ki in Supermans universe doesn't work like ki in Goku's universe. Second, chakra is simply another term for energy. Energy, ki and chakra are all the same. The energy that is legitimately different is haki, per the author's own claims and descriptions.
Posted by thestickmanful 3 years ago
thestickmanful
Hmm ok... okay then we will take this debate further, I think you could first start free mode.
Posted by Logical-Master 3 years ago
Logical-Master
PRO, I agreed to your terms. I'm simply adding an additional that has no bearing on anything you stipulated in R1.
Posted by thestickmanful 3 years ago
thestickmanful
kyudisease, Look, First, Itachi does not have the ability of Izanagi, Izanami only, he is only aware of this technique, since in pair, is used with the Izanami.Nunca Itachi was shown using this type of Genjutsu, after all, this genjutsu can not be used in living beings, just reality around non-living. Only those who can use today are:
Baru Uchiha (Anime only)
Danz!3; Shimura
Madara Uchiha (Manga only)
Naka Uchiha (Anime only)
Obito Uchiha
Rai Uchiha (Anime only)
Posted by kyudisease 3 years ago
kyudisease
Under your current rule set Itachi would win automatically. He can use Izanagi twice seeing as how Izanagi changes the actual fabric of reality as opposed to changing how people see it, like with tsukuyomi.
Posted by thestickmanful 3 years ago
thestickmanful
Kkkkk I Understand man, well, you should search some things about Rob Lucci, they are very similar in his own plot, you should do this, on one piece wikia specify very well his history!
Posted by Speakerfrthedead 3 years ago
Speakerfrthedead
Dang, i don't know Rob Lucci only Itachi..
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