The Instigator
Swordmaster
Pro (for)
Winning
35 Points
The Contender
PreacherAndy18000
Con (against)
Losing
14 Points

Rom 10:9-10 teaches Lordship salvation

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after 8 votes the winner is...
Swordmaster
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/13/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,874 times Debate No: 12031
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (8)

 

Swordmaster

Pro

rules of this debate.
Anyone who accepts this debate must answer the questions given by the opponent. and failure to do so forfeits the round to the one who asked the question.
Let it be understood that if a question will be answered in another round, that it must be so stated as such, and the answer in that round must be identified as the answer to that particular question.
No more then 3 questions may asked per round. If this is agreed to let us began.
I have heard this passage used time and time again "trying to defeat the teaching (found in the bible) that baptism is Necessary for salvation. Yet they have taken this passage out of context. Rom. 10:9-10 is not saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to be saved, Nor is it saying that all one has to do is believe in the heart and confess from the mouth and they will be saved. I have heard this Calvinistic teaching for years, and in this debate I will set the record straight.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
Notice that no where in this verse does it talk about confession, or repentance, as well as being baptized. Yet many hang their entire souls destiny on that verse.
There will be 5 rules of bible interpretation that i will use.
1st. Rule of bible interpretation is: that all verses on the same topic must be considered before one draws a conclusion as to what the bible teaches concerning that topic.
Thus Luke 13:3 "except you repent, you will all like wise perish." is just as valid a verse concerning salvation as John 3:16. neither cancels the other out.
2nd rule of bible interpretation is: Keep every verse in context with the passage around it.
Thus I submit that Romans 10:9-10 cannot be understood unless chapters 9-11. are taken into account..
3th rule is: "the rules of language apply."
Thus we need to really dig to find what this passage means.
4th rule is: What did the original audience understand when they heard those words?
5th rule the bible harmonizes with itself, so any concluesion other wise is a wrong concluesion
we need to understand as much as possible who they were and what were the circumstances that promoted the writing of the letter to them.
So who is Paul writing to in Chapter 10? to answer this question lets read:
9:1-5
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen a according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen
Who were Paul's country in the flesh as verse 2 identifies? They were the Jews, Israelites according to the flesh. Christ was a Jew, and they were his kinsmen according to the flesh. So I submit that this passage from Romans Chapter 9-11 are written to Jews. In this part of the text it is written to unsaved Jews. Now the whole letter according to Rom. 1:7 "To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Thus we know that it is addressed to the Church at Rome, but Paul is talking to his fellow Jewish Christians, and letting them know that he has a deep love for the Jews who are not saved.
This starts the whole direction of thoughts in the next 3 chapters. it is also note worthy to bring up at this point that Paul quotes from the old testament no less then 12 verses. 5 verses from the Pentateuch and 7 from the prophetical books.
Jews understood those scriptures well for they were given to them. therefore without a doubt we see this passage directed toward the Jewish Christians.
Next we are going to follow the passages that are around Chapter 10:9-10, both before and after this passage. This will take the rest of this round and most of the next round.
Rom. 9:6-12, " But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
Notice Paul is telling them that not every seed of Abraham are Israel. think about it, Esau is a seed of Abraham, but not counted as Israel, for they were Edomites. Defining it more closely those from the seed of Jacob came the children of promise. Yet God Chose the seed not on its merit, but because he is God and he answers to no man. Paul would go on and say in verse 16 "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."
Today God chose the church as the elect, not Jews born physically the seed of Abraham. lets skip to verse 27 "Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved."
It was never intended for all Israel to be saved, but only a remnant. That remnant was the ones who would leave the Jewish faith and submit unto Christ. again in verses 29-32, And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the Lord of Sabaoth l had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah." 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. o For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
therefore only those who pursue righteousness by faith will be saved. now this to the Jew was a stumbling stone. we will look at that thought in greater detail in my next post. So in context we see Paul talking to the Jews who were Christians explaining why they were of the elect, and their countrymen were not. it is in this setting that we go to Chapter 10:1-4,"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
there are 5 things against the Jew.
1. They have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
2. They Are ignorant of God's righteousness
3. They seek to establish their own according to the Law.
4. They have not submitted to God's righteousness.
5. They have not accepted that the law has ended for the believers in Christ.
Paul is explaining to the Jews who had become Christians why Israel according to the flesh would not be saved. now lets skip down to verse. 16-17," 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" I 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Notice the word obeyed in verse 16 and believe are used interchangeable. who is game??? come on I am going to show you water and the gospe
PreacherAndy18000

Con

Hi my name is Andy we have debated a similar topic before.

"I have heard this passage used time and time again "trying to defeat the teaching (found in the bible) that baptism is Necessary for salvation. Yet they have taken this passage out of context. Rom. 10:9-10 is not saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to be saved, Nor is it saying that all one has to do is believe in the heart and confess from the mouth and they will be saved. I have heard this Calvinistic teaching for years, and in this debate I will set the record straight."
1. I find nowhere in the bible where it teaches baptism is a prerequisite for salvation Ill wait to hear his evidence though.
2. This is not just a Calvinistic teaching if you knew what Calvinism actually teaches its even more extreme then my position.

"John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
Notice that no where in this verse does it talk about confession, or repentance, as well as being baptized. Yet many hang their entire souls destiny on that verse."
1. True people depend to much on this one verse and it doesn't say confession but it does say belief just belief not baptism and aanyways this isn't even the verse were debating.

"There will be 5 rules of bible interpretation that i will use.
1st. Rule of bible interpretation is: that all verses on the same topic must be considered before one draws a conclusion as to what the bible teaches concerning that topic.
Thus Luke 13:3 "except you repent, you will all like wise perish." is just as valid a verse concerning salvation as John 3:16. neither cancels the other out.
2nd rule of bible interpretation is: Keep every verse in context with the passage around it.
Thus I submit that Romans 10:9-10 cannot be understood unless chapters 9-11. are taken into account..
3th rule is: "the rules of language apply."
Thus we need to really dig to find what this passage means.
4th rule is: What did the original audience understand when they heard those words?
5th rule the bible harmonizes with itself, so any concluesion other wise is a wrong concluesion
we need to understand as much as possible who they were and what were the circumstances that promoted the writing of the letter to them."

These are all true I agree

so far ive heard no good evidence in support of his position.
Debate Round No. 1
Swordmaster

Pro

In order to understand this passage I need to:
1.show the audience which I have done in my first post.
2.Show the theme of the passages from 9-11 encompasses a call to action.
3.Show that this passage is not talking about salvation, but for the gentiles not to brag, and the Jews not to
think that they are all not Israel that are Israel God chosen,
4.Show what saves and how
5.To tie it all together in my conclusion.
What old testament passages are use in this chapter?

I have already shown who the audience was, in my first argument, I must show in this discussion the theme of Chapters 9-10. Paul Quotes in Ro. 9:33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." Isa 28:16 (believing)
(H3) The Greek form of the word (which Paul Used guided by the Holy Spirit) also is a participle and that shows us The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the English participle, "-ing" which indicates action and this corresponds with Peter use of the same passage.
2Pet 2:8,"and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed,"
The word of Jesus echo in LK. 20:9-18 Then He began to tell the people this parable: "A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also, treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 And again he sent a third; and they wounded him also and cast him out. 13 Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son. Probably they will respect him when they see him.' 14 But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.' 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others." And when they heard it they said, "Certainly not!" 17 Then He looked at them and said, "What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone'? b 18 "Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."
The Holy Spirit does not contradict his given interpretation of the same verse. Both are teaching us to be obedient is believing. When anyone is not obedient, then Jesus becomes to that person a stumbling stone. So the stone of Stumbling implies a person who is not being obedient to the Commands of Christ. Jesus is not their Lord, and that is seen by their action.
Rom 10:2 "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge." Knowledge is very important, in interpreting vs 8,"But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):" Paul were consistent throughout his ministry. He said in1 Co. 1:23, "but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,"
What Paul was meaning when he said, "The word of Faith which we preach," What was the word of Faith, but Christ Death, Burial, and resurrection, and our obedience to it. Paul had already told these Christians how to obey the gospel in Chapter 6:3-4, 7, 17 he does not need to tell them again.
(H5) Now the word believe in this passage is a verb. Denoting an action. There is an action in this belief. Jesus said Luke 6:46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say? What did Jesus Say? in order for him to be our Lord we must Obey, What Action is Paul talking about the same thing, Obey. Notice Believe in your heart the Lord Jesus, but Jesus demands more then just belief, we must obey. All scriptures must harmonize together, they never contradict, Jews in the flesh would never confess Jesus as Lord, but only the faithful Jews would.
The word "Lord" in this passage means master. Note Jesus is not your Lord (master) unless you are obedient to his will. in Matt. 7:21,"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
Again, Lord always implies obedience. Paul uses this term in 9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
A non believing Jew would never confess Jesus as Lord, for them to do so would imply being a follower of Jesus This is what that is talking about. this is why in Rom 10:12-13,"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.13 "For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
This term "calls on the name of the Lord" is not unique to the new testament. Consider:
1.Gen 4:26, "And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh. Then [men] began to call on the name of the LORD."
2.These men in Genesis did not say "Jesus Save me I confess your name", No, these men were worshiping God with sacrifices that were made for their sins, as they called upon his name for forgiveness.
Ro. 10:12-13 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
This passage is from Joel and was quoted also in Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.'
Notice Peters response when he was asked in Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Peter answered, Call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved? in verse 38, No,
what Peter said, 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Now this is how he responded, and this is defining how one calls on the name of the Lord today. They must be baptized into Christ. "To call on the name of the Lord" which means to: Obey the Gospel in Rom 10:16, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?"
The doctrine that they obeyed were stated earlier in verses 3-4, now read Rom 6:17-18, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
This is the Heart believing into Righteousness
Ro. 10:10, "For with the heart one believes into righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made into salvation."
Below is the theme of Chapters 9-11
Romans 11:19-20 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
So to make these verses teach that all you must do is believe and confess Jesus as Lord and your saved, is erroneous to the core of what Paul is teaching.
I have showed context and structure, purpose and reason.
Let me ask my opponent
1. What did Paul mean in Rom. 6:7?
2. What doctrine saved them in Rom 6:?
3.In Ro. 10:16 what is obeying the gospel of Christ?
1.http://www.blueletterbible.org...
PreacherAndy18000

Con

"In order to understand this passage I need to:
1.show the audience which I have done in my first post.
2.Show the theme of the passages from 9-11 encompasses a call to action.
3.Show that this passage is not talking about salvation, but for the gentiles not to brag, and the Jews not to
think that they are all not Israel that are Israel God chosen,
4.Show what saves and how
5.To tie it all together in my conclusion.
What old testament passages are use in this chapter?"

Alright Ill start from here then.

Sources
1. The Transformation Study Bible
2. NRSV

1. Audience Paul is writing to Jewish and Gentile Christians at Rome.
2. Theme you never really gave a clear theme you said alot but you never summarized your theme summarize it into a sentence so ill know what your talking about.

Response to your ??
1. He means just what he said whoever dies to sin is free from it.
2. ??
3. Hes talking to the jews in this verse if youd read the whole section for once hes saying that the jews are being disobedient by choosing not to obey the gospel by believing it and not to accept christ because they were believing in their own rightessness not Christ's.
Debate Round No. 2
Swordmaster

Pro

I need to establish a few teachings from the Bible on baptism. First in Romans 6:3-4, 3 "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." What was Paul addressing? Verses 1-2, 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Notice that Paul set up a problem and a reason. The problem was these Christians misunderstood grace. He has just finished up a teaching on justification in Chapter 5 and now he is dealing with their lack of repentance. They thought that the more they sinned the more grace they received. Paul says "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" in verse two and in verse seven he uses the term "died" again. 7 "For he who has died has been freed from sin." Paul is using a line of reasoning here of the Christians death. Verse 2 teaches if the Christian dies to sin he don't live in it, and verse 7 teaches the Christians death freed them from there sins.
I ask a question, "when and how and with who did they die in these verses. The answer is found in the following verses. 3 "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Who's death does this verse say we are baptized into? None other then Christ Jesus!!! As we continue notice verse four. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
In verse 4 the death we are baptized into is ours, it is at that point that we died to self, sin and the world. Notice verses 5-6. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin"
Jesus said in Luke "If anyone desires to come after me let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me." The point is we can not take up a cross our way, it must be done God's way. In the above verse we learn that when a believer dies with Christ is when they are baptized and not before. It is at that point that the believer is saved.
Verse 7 "For he who died has been freed from sin." Plainly teaches a person is saved at the point of baptism. Still talking about the same subject Paul writes in Rom 6:17-18, "17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
I ask what doctrine did they obey from the heart that set them freed from their sins? They obeyed the gospel of Christ. God can not and will not save anyone under the new covenant that does not obey His gospel.
So lets go forward to chapter 10:9-10 of Romans. Paul is not re-visiting salvation. He don't need to; what he is doing is encouraging the Jews to remain faithful for when he says 11-12, "For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him."
Like I showed in my last post, calling on the name of the Lord today is when a man who has faith in Christ is baptized for the remission of their sins. And Notice Paul uses the very term "call upon the name of the Lord."
He also said in verse 16, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Notice the words "obeyed the gospel." There are not two separate teachings on obeying the gospel. Paul also told the church in 1 Thessalonians 1:8-9, In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Notice the seriousness of not believing or obeying the gospel of Christ.
"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."
Friends it is a serious thing not to obey the Gospel of Christ. Paul guided by the Holy Spirit showed us How in Rom 6:3-4 as we have already look at. Thus we come to Mark 16:15-16, "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned"
Notice we see that believing is what makes baptism work. Without belief it is impossible to please Him. Obviously Jesus did not need to say, "he that does not believe and is not baptized," for baptism does not stand alone apart from belief.
Rom. 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." The Jews according to the flesh would not believe and will be put to shame on that great day. But when one believes to the point of obedience he will be saved. Their belief had to be to the extent of leaving the beloved law of Moses and by it propelling them to obey.
One other thing, in John 19:33-34 we see that Jesus shed His blood in His death, and we already have learned that we are baptized into the death of Jesus, so we conclude that is where we come into contact with His blood. Therefore John would say, Rev. 1:5b, To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood." Thus again if you are saved before you are baptized you are saved without the blood of Christ, without being washed in his blood. Gal 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Notice a person is a son of God through faith in Christ Jesus, but not without being baptized into Christ. If you were saved before you were baptized, you were saved before you put on Christ and before you entered Christ. That flies in the face of Eph. 2:13, "for only when a person has already entered Christ to where he is in Christ, are we brought near by the blood of Christ." It takes faith to believe that when a person is baptized into Christ they are washed with the blood of Jesus. 1 Pet. 3: 20-21, "who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long suffering waited f in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Water saved Noah like baptism saves us. lets look at Paul when he was known as Saul. He was given authority to persecute the church. Acts 9:1-2. He was blinded and told that Jesus was the one who blinded him by Jesus himself. Acts 9:3-7.He Obey, and Prayed and fasted. Acts 9:8-11. Preacher Andy, according to your belief and position he had to have been saved at this point right?
He was baptized for the forgiveness of his sins Acts 22:16 "And Now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." After three days of praying and fasting Paul still had sin on him and he was unsaved. It took Paul being baptized into Christ, or obeying the gospel of Christ to get his sins forgiven. This passage equates calling on the name of the Lord and baptism at the same thing and time. Thus this is what Romans 10:9-10 is talking about, a belief so strong that it obeys, Andy you can ask me 3 questions also and here are my 3 questions.
1. According to Acts 22:16 when was Saul sins washed away, before or after he was baptized?
2. What is your understanding of how one obeys the gospel, please back it up with scripture
3. What did Peter say for them to do, (in response
PreacherAndy18000

Con

1. Ok no offence but you bring up way to many points in each post for me to respond to each one just get to the point and stop jumping all over the place.
2. You don't even write like your having a debate you write like your writing a whole book and you completly ignored my last post.

alright now my take on romans 6
1 What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted, 18 and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness for sanctification. 20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 So what advantage did you then get from the things of which you now are ashamed? The end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

vv1-2 the romans thought that the more they sinned the more they were forgiven they didn't understand what the christian life meant yet its about repentance which means we ask for forgivness for sin and die to them not living for them any more not using grace as a license to sin
vv3-5 baptism is a public display of what happened to christ death going underwater buriel being under and resurrection being brought back outt of the water and its our way of showing that same thing has happened inside us notice in these verses it never says anything about saved salvation or anything like it because its important but it doesn't have anything to do with salvation
vv6-7 if we die to something in this sense it means on the inside so if we die to sin were free from it because were not living for it like living for a slave for a master now god is our focus our master were free from sins reign
vv17-18 notice in v 17 he uses the phrase obedient from the heart becuase this is how we obey the gospel from our hearts its not a physical obedience if that were true what about crippled people who can't be baptised are they going to hell no all they must do is obey from the heart which means believing the gospel of christ and confessing him

I don't wish to respond to your interpretation of romans 10:9-10
because you completly ignored my response to that from before

so skipping to mark 16:16
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.
1. first some of the most ancient manuscripts we have of mark don't include vv 9-20 so they may have been added later i wouldn't base my doctrine on something like this
2. 2nd it says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (but) whoever (believes not) will be condemned

response to your questions
1. 16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, (and) have your sins washed away, calling on his name.'
notice he says get up be baptized and have your sins wahsed away how call on his name
2. believing it 16 (But not all have obeyed the good news;) for Isaiah says, "Lord, (who has believed) our message?" 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
3. ????
Debate Round No. 3
Swordmaster

Pro

Preacher Andy I had asked in round 2, In Ro. 10:16 what is obeying the gospel of Christ.
YOU ANSWERED. " He's talking to the Jews in this verse if you read the whole section for once he is saying that the Jews are being disobedient by choosing not to obey the gospel by believing it and not to accept Christ because they were believing in their own righteousness not Christ's"
Swordmaster response: Clearly 1 Cor. 15:1-5, states the gospel of Christ is His death, burial and resurrection, and I ask you "what is Obeying the gospel?" Your answer is incorrect you said, "Jews are being disobedient by choosing not to obey the gospel by believing it"
Swordmaster response: You do understand that believing is what a believer does. In Ro. 10:9-10,"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Notice the word believes, is a verb, denotes action, if you believe there must be action or you are not a believer. Confess with your mouth, (action) the Lord (action) therefore, believing in your heart, (Action) What action? The bible plainly teaches that we must obey the gospel? I have shown 3 verses that teach that the gospel is something that must be obeyed. Rom 10:16, 2 Thess. 1:8-9, and 1Pet 4:17,
Andy want you us to think that all you have to do is believe "Mentally". what Andy is saying, "if you have a child, and you tell him to go to the store and buy some bread, all that child has to do is say daddy, I accept your command by believing it, and nothing else is expected. Andy, Your Heavenly father told you to obey the gospel, So the bible teaches us how to obey it, I showed plainly in my last post that Romans 6 teaches us how? When one Obeys the gospel by being baptized into Christ, they are believing and accepting Jesus as Lord, and not before.
Please notice his lack of response and teaching. He says what he believes, but not one time has he harmonized any passage. Nor does he understand that obeying and believing requires action.
The above was in response to round 2, Now in response to round 3, "Andy you said, Ok no offence but you bring up way to many points in each post for me to respond to each one just get to the point and stop jumping all over the place.
Swordmaster response: Andy the bible never contradicts itself, When one writer is talking about a subject , all other writers must agree on that subject. You had agreed to this in my first argument.
You Said:
2. You don't even write like your having a debate you write like your writing a whole book and you completely ignored my last post.
Swordmaster response: I could not find what you wrote, I was wondering what was going on.
You said: alright now my take on Ro. 6 vv1-2 the Romans thought that the more they sinned the more they were forgiven they didn't understand what the Christian life meant yet its about repentance which means we ask for Forgiveness for sin and die to them not living for them anymore not using grace as a license to sin
Swordmaster response: Repentance is of major importance, I agree I set out to show Lord's ship salvation, and was using Baptism as an example of obedience. The work of repentance is required before one is saved, Paul is going deeper here through his teachings on death. Notice he said in 3-4, that they died, not by a mental belief as Andy would pervert this into saying. But the bible says when they died , that was when they were baptized.
You Said. Vs. 3-5 baptism is a public display of what happened to Christ death going underwater burial being under and resurrection being brought back out of the water and its our way of showing that same thing has happened inside us notice in these verses it never says anything about saved salvation or anything like it because its important but it doesn't have anything to do with salvation
Swordmaster response: If baptism does not have anything to do with salvation, why does Paul teach in verse 6: "knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Sounds Like salvation to me! When are Christians crucified with Christ? Context, context, context, lets keep verse 6 in context, with verse 5 and it says, "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection," When were they crucified with Christ? When they were united together in the likeness of his death!!!!!!!! When did that happen? Verse 3-4, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4. Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
WHY were they baptized??? The later part of verse 6, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Andy look at verse 7, "For he who died has been freed from sin." And you said that doesn't have anything to do with salvation.
You said: vv6-7 if we die to something in this sense it means on the inside so if we die to sin were free from it ."
Swordmaster response: Andy Death means separation, Ja. 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. " What you have done is take this verse out of context and that means your conclusion is a pretext." You completely ignored the above verses, Gal 1:8-9 applies to you also, stop perverting the gospel of Christ.
You said: its not a physical obedience if that were true what about crippled people who can't be baptised are they going to hell no all they must do is obey from the heart which means believing the gospel of Christ and confessing him
Swordmaster response: I have baptized cripples and diseased people before. And the same Lord commands them as he commanded us. so skipping to mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.
You said 1. first some of the most ancient manuscripts we have of mark don't include vv 9-20 so they may have been added later I wouldn't base my doctrine on something like this 2nd it says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (but) whoever (believes not) will be condemned
Swordmaster's response: I talked to a Muslim yesterday that said that the bible is untrustworthy because it has things added into it. Be careful he will convert you, I trust the whole bible and will cut none of it out. Why don't you get a razor and cut it out of your bible? You don't respect what it says anyway. Shame on you.

You said: response to your questions
1. 16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, (and) have your sins washed away, calling on his name.'
notice he says get up be baptized and have your sins washed away how call on his name
Swordmaster Response: I want you to Notice Paul did not say, "how" Andy added it. I showed very well what calling on the name of the Lord is and you have disproved none of it. So I will not waste my time re-arguing the matter.
You said:
2. believing it 16 (But not all have obeyed the good news;) for Isaiah says, "Lord, (who has believed) our message?" 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
Swordmaster response: Obedience and belief are used here interchangeable. Just like in Hebrews 3: 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1.If we do not obeyed is that considered belief by God?
2.Define believing
3.In Acts 2:38 why were they baptized?
PreacherAndy18000

Con

Swordmaster YOU SAID "Swordmaster response: Clearly 1 Cor. 15:1-5, states the gospel of Christ is His death, burial and resurrection, and I ask you "what is Obeying the gospel?" Your answer is incorrect you said, "Jews are being disobedient by choosing not to obey the gospel by believing it"

MY RESPONSE: The gospel is not something which we obey in the same way we do other commands. I know your interpretation baptism is obeying the gospel let me clarify mine a little bit. Baptism is a seperate command I believe it says in many places obey the gospel Romans 10:16 and in many places be baptised if they truly are the same command why not use thm interchangebly??? The gospel is something I believe we don't obey physically as much otherwise that would mean going through the same thing Christ went through 1 Corinthians 15:1-5. The gospel is what Christ did for us to save us being obedient to it means believing it not merely mental obedience. An obedience of the heart which means trust love for Christ and your right it is an action just not a physical one. Although it naturally leads to physical action baptism included but why stop there if you Obey the gospel from the heart youll want to obey all Christs commands not just baptism.

YOU SAID "Swordmaster response: You do understand that believing is what a believer does. In Ro. 10:9-10,"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Notice the word believes, is a verb, denotes action, if you believe there must be action or you are not a believer. Confess with your mouth, (action) the Lord (action) therefore, believing in your heart, (Action) What action? The bible plainly teaches that we must obey the gospel? I have shown 3 verses that teach that the gospel is something that must be obeyed. Rom 10:16, 2 Thess. 1:8-9, and 1Pet 4:17,
Andy want you us to think that all you have to do is believe "Mentally". what Andy is saying, "if you have a child, and you tell him to go to the store and buy some bread, all that child has to do is say daddy, I accept your command by believing it, and nothing else is expected. Andy, Your Heavenly father told you to obey the gospel, So the bible teaches us how to obey it, I showed plainly in my last post that Romans 6 teaches us how? When one Obeys the gospel by being baptized into Christ, they are believing and accepting Jesus as Lord, and not before.
Please notice his lack of response and teaching. He says what he believes, but not one time has he harmonized any passage. Nor does he understand that obeying and believing requires action"

MY RESPONSE
You gave your interpretation and I gave mine above to rebut yours.

YOU SAID "Swordmaster response: Andy the bible never contradicts itself, When one writer is talking about a subject , all other writers must agree on that subject. You had agreed to this in my first argument. Swordmaster response: I could not find what you wrote, I was wondering what was going on."

MY RESPONSE I never said anything about the bible contradicting itself. I agreed to a debate on the meaning of Romans 10:9-10 so far all you've done is bring up a bunch of verses that allegedly support your belief on baptism. And most of them you have'nt even tried to show how they relate to Romans 10:9-10 not that they contradict just don't prove your point.

YOU SAID "Swordmaster response: Repentance is of major importance, I agree I set out to show Lord's ship salvation, and was using Baptism as an example of obedience. The work of repentance is required before one is saved, Paul is going deeper here through his teachings on death. Notice he said in 3-4, that they died, not by a mental belief as Andy would pervert this into saying. But the bible says when they died , that was when they were baptized."

MY RESPONSE Not by Mental belief by belief of the heart baptism is a picture of the work done on the inside. Just getting baptised won't change ones heart if that were the case all we have to do is get everyone in the world baptised. It won't change the heart. In fact why would anyone even follow Christ's command to get baptised unless they had a change of heart. Your perverting it Paul says in multiple places works don't save so no man can boast like you.

YOU SAID "Swordmaster response: Andy Death means separation, Ja. 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. " What you have done is take this verse out of context and that means your conclusion is a pretext." You completely ignored the above verses, Gal 1:8-9 applies to you also, stop perverting the gospel of Christ."

MY RESPONSE Ok lets take your meaning seperation to seperate ourselves from sin means not to sin anymore but this isn't just magical it requires a change of heart. Unsaved sin is like our god its our focus its what we serve. When Christ becomes our god we focus on him and serve him but its not just our acts. Which save us it acts come from our inside not our outside this is why no physical act itself can save us we may do a good thing. Even as an unbeliever but its normally for selfish reasons and no because we love Christ. So first we must get the Christ in us to get sin out then we can be truly seperated from sin.

YOU SAID "Swordmaster response: I have baptized cripples and diseased people before. And the same Lord commands them as he commanded us." MY RESPONSE Iam sure you have because you would tell them theyll go to hell if they don't. Let me give you a scenario what if a person believes with his heart and confesses with his mouth that Jesus is lord and their on there way to get baptized and they get killed would they seriously go to hell just because they didn't have the chance I guess the theif on the cross was to late.

YOU SAID "Swordmaster's response: I talked to a Muslim yesterday that said that the bible is untrustworthy because it has things added into it. Be careful he will convert you, I trust the whole bible and will cut none of it out. Why don't you get a razor and cut it out of your bible? You don't respect what it says anyway. Shame on you." MY RESPONSE I am not saying the bibles untrustworthy. Shame on you for not studying this matter more 2 Timothy 2:15 all I am saying is that we don't have the original text of the Bible. We have many coppies of manuscripts and we use text criticism to try to find out by comparing them which one the original was probably most like. And that is one of the passages were pretty sure was added later there aren't many things like this but that is a significant one.

YOU SAID "Swordmaster Response: I want you to Notice Paul did not say, "how" Andy added it. I showed very well what calling on the name of the Lord is and you have disproved none of it. So I will not waste my time re-arguing the matter."

MY RESPONSE I never said paul did use the word how i added it for emphases.

1.If we do not obeyed is that considered belief by God?
Depends on what you mean by obeyed.
2.Define believing
Trust an action of the heart
3.In Acts 2:38 why were they baptized?
A display of what happened inside.

MY QUESTION FOR YOU
1. Why would anyone obey jesus command to be baptized if he wasn't already saved.
2. Romans 8:9 teaches if we have the spirit were saved. In Acts 10:44-48 when are they saved???
Debate Round No. 4
Swordmaster

Pro

Swordmaster's response: Question 1. Acts 22:16 answers that to get their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus. 2. Gal 3:27 to Get into Christ Where all spiritual blessing are Eph 1:3 To Obey the Gospel of Christ of which is God's power to save Ro 1:16, 4. To Received the gift of Christ which is the Seal of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38.
5. To Get their sins forgiven Acts 2:38. 6 To be clothed with Christ Gal 3:27,
Question 2. Romans 8:9 teaches if we have the spirit were saved. In Acts 10:44-48 when are they saved??? Sword master response They were saved when they obeyed the gospel of Christ, through being baptized. The reason the Holy Spirit fell upon them was not to save them but to show the Jews that the Gospel was also for the gentiles. This is such a big topic I cannot do it justice for I do not have room.
I once read an article on lordship salvation from a Baptist publication. I thought it strange that 2 supposing authorities on the bible would even have to talk about such a matter. One said all you have to do is accept Jesus as savior and the other says you must accept Jesus not only as Savior, but Lord. The big thing to them was work salvation.
You can not separate the 2 is what the bible teaches. Jesus said in Luke 6:46, "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?"
Matt 7:21-23, "21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
And to add to all of this look at Heb 3:15-19, "while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." c 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."
A hard heart is one that is in rebellion to the word of God. Just like the Israelites who would not listen or obey God. As a matter of a fact in verse 18 we see the reason why they could not enter into God's rest, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. Notice verse 19, They could not enter into God's rest BECAUSE THEY DID NOT OBEY! In verse 15, while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
A hard heart is one that does not obey the will of God and an disobedient heart is one that is considered by God a heart of unbelief.
Rom 10:9-10 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Remember this passage has to harmonize with the book it is written in and with what every other writer has taught concerning it. The confession with the mouth means nothing without obedience to Jesus as Lord. Believing in your heart means nothing without action to back up that belief. Righteousness and salvation are the same thing, for you cannot be saved and be considered unrighteous. Plan truths that Andy denies. Andy would have you believe that as long as you say I believe your being obedient.
Lets review calling on the name of the Lord. Gen 4:26, Gen 12:8, Gen 13:4, Gen 16:13, Gen 21:33 In every one of these times they called on the Name of the Lord, Yet without sacrifices being offered for their sins, they would not have been considered believing, faithful, or saved.
Now look at Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We must Harmonize our understanding with other passages that talk about the same thing. Acts 22:16 "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'"
2 points First, Saul had been in Prayer before he was talked to by Ananias, Acts 9: 3-6 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" 5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.
1.Saul believed in Jesus
2.But there was something he must do, He must be believing
Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Note: Paul is fasting. Acts9: 11 "So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying." Note: he is praying and fasting, Yet there is something he must do, for he is not saved, But according to Andy he is. For all Andy teaches is repent and believe. Paul is at this point but he is not saved. Ananias gives the command Acts 22:16 "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'" Just like all those in the old testament who called on the name of the Lord, without sacrifices being offered for their sins, they would not have been considered believing, faithful, or saved.
So Paul without being baptized would not have been considered believing, faithful, or saved. When one calls on the name of the Lord, that is a term that means they humble themselves before God trusting totally in him, and that is displayed through our obedience to Him. But Andy don't believe this, obedience is not necessary and Paul was saved before he was baptized according to him. Why they was sin still on him in verse 16? Andy can not harmonize these passages. Notice He has not said much of anything, except he disagrees with me.
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, g Who bring glad tidings of good things!" h 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Note Was Ananias sent to Saul? Yes, Was the gospel of Peace preached to Saul? Yes, Did Ananias good things to Paul in his teachings? Yes, Did Saul Obey the gospel of Christ, Yes and did he do the same things Peter told the Jews who believed and ask what must we do, as he gave that great order, That Billy Gram never gave, repent and Be baptized Upon the name of Jesus Christ into the forgiveness of your sins, and Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Saul did those things.
Saul followed Rom 10:9-10, is teaching us to make Jesus our Lord and when you believe that, the bible says Matt 12:35, A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. Andy do you treasure Jesus? Do you treasure his word and his gospel? Are you willing to obey Jesus in becoming obedient to his gospel, By being baptized, (Not for the false reason of an out ward sign of an inward faith) But for the remission of sins, are you willing to be buried with Christ, Die with Christ, to self sin and the world? Are you willing to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. Andy you asked: "Why would anyone obey Jesus command to be baptized if he wasn't already saved."
Andy believes that it does not matter what you believe as long as you believe in Jesus, Jesus teaches believing is not enough if it is not accompanied with actions, for he is Lord and King!!
PreacherAndy18000

Con

I can see he has once again not responded to me. This is supposed to be a debate respond all he did was respond to my questions. So I will not take the time to respond to the same arguments hes been using the whole debate. Which I've already handled. In conclusion we've seen nothing in support of his position. Exception of scripture twisting. The bible doesn't teach works salvation Ephesians 2:8-9 Romans 6:23 Romans 10-9-10. He says this passage was thrown in his face during the last debate this is ridiculous. He plainly asked me if not at baptism when is one saved. I said belief and confession and quoted it this was the passage we were supposed to be debating. It mentions salvation connected to belief and confession and obeying the gospel a few verses down and nowhere baptism. He qoutes a few verses in Acts where people were baptised after they believed as if this supports his position I agree baptism should be more important than it is it should follow salvation immeadeatly. However its not a prerequisite. Baptism cannot change a person trust in Christ as lord can. And works shall follow.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Swordmaster 6 years ago
Swordmaster
Andy
Look at the beginning of my post, I answered both of your questions. I started out with this primise, That Romans 10:9-10 taught Lordship salvation. I proved that and answered your questions on baptism. Except the one in Acts I did not have enough time. I would like to debate you in the future on that.
Posted by PreacherAndy18000 6 years ago
PreacherAndy18000
Oh well I apologize for the miss understanding. I only posted the parts I responded to and I put them in quotation maks.
Posted by Swordmaster 6 years ago
Swordmaster
Andy it is my responsibility to teach my position, and respond to any questions you may have. The problem I have been having is finding what you posted. You reposted my teachings, but wrote so little I could not find What you said, I think it is Just miss-understanding. One quick thought, only post the parts of my debate that you respond to, and make it clear that you are responding to me. Say something like "you said" "My response" this will define who is doing the talking and what the response is.
Posted by nickthengineer 6 years ago
nickthengineer
I didn't claim to have won yet. And again you resort to dogmatic statements in lieu of facts. Not surprisingly.
Posted by Swordmaster 6 years ago
Swordmaster
LLAMA
If you want to debate that is fine, I would not remove you from being my Opponent, I just donw care for people who give me one liners and mock this site. Post your position and I will still prove to you that Rom 10:9-10 is talking about Lordship and you can not be saved unless you are baptized.
Nick
I proved what the bible taught beyond a shadow of a doubt and you have not won yet.
Posted by LLAMA 6 years ago
LLAMA
I want to take this debate and argue that neither lordship nor baptism will get you salvation, but I am unsure if that would be something that PRO is looking for since he has been very clear in the fact that he may remove me from the debate...
Posted by nickthengineer 6 years ago
nickthengineer
Beyond a shadow of a doubt according to who? You beat 2 trolls who somehow had worse grammar and organization than you and are currently losing to me. I'd say there's much more than a shadow of a doubt, not that DDO voting is always accurate.
Posted by Swordmaster 6 years ago
Swordmaster
Fair enough Marauder, I understand thanks
Posted by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
I'm not taking the debate for two reasons.
1) I too am against Calvinism
2) 5 ROUNDS! and look at the size you can fill a single round with. Accepting this debate will know doubt be mentally exhausting, especially since I would be defending the opposite stance from my actual view.
Posted by Swordmaster 6 years ago
Swordmaster
Wow who has the courage to this debate. John Calvin taught that baptism was not essential to salvation, all you have to do is believe. He used Rom 10:9-10, and so today many are going to hell because of this teaching. in my last debate I showed beyound a shadow of a doubt that a person is save after they are baptized into Christ and not before. this verse was throwen up in my face as if it defeated my position. in this debate I will show that is not the case. Jesus must be our savior as well as our Lord. You can not seperate them, if you accept one, you must accept the other or your salvation is not real. So any takers? Lordship salvation is what those verse is all about, Obedience is required to the will of GOd. So where are those who are not afraid and believe they have the truth? Please do not accept this debate if you are trying to be silly, I will have you removed from this debate, only the serious may apply.
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