The Instigator
InVinoVeritas
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Hardcore.Pwnography
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points

Romantic french kissing is better with eyes closed

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
InVinoVeritas
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/21/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,963 times Debate No: 20001
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (3)

 

InVinoVeritas

Pro

French kiss: a kiss in which one participant's tongue touches the partner's lips or tongue and usually enters his or her mouth (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

I'm pro, so I'm arguing that the this practice is better when both parties' eyes are closed. Con is arguing that it is better when eyes are open.

First round is for acceptance, discussion of terms of debate, and definitions.

Thanks.
Hardcore.Pwnography

Con

I accept, this challenge.

As PRO has not provided a definition for better, I will do so.

Google defines better as: of a more excellent or effective type or quality
http://www.google.ca...

The purpose of a french kiss, or any kiss, is to display your intimate feelings for your significant other.

Therefore, a better french kiss would be a kiss where it is more effective in achieving this goal. A better french kiss would be a kiss where it is much more intimate, and you are able to display deeper and truer feelings for your partner.

As side CON, I will prove that this can be achieved much more so with your eyes opened during a french kiss.

I await PRO's arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
InVinoVeritas

Pro

PREMISES (I., II., & III.):

(I.) Sacrifice sight, Enhance touch


When you close your eyes, your other senses become more sensitive. That is why many of those who French kiss choose to close their eyes. [1] By shutting their eyes they take away their visual sense in order to emphasize touch. The reason why a French kiss is so pleasurable is due to the high sensitivity of the human tongue, not because of sight. [2] By taking away the "distraction" of sight, the tongue becomes even more sensitive to the touch, improving the quality of the French kiss. The sense of sight is pretty irrelevant when it comes to French kissing, as the next argument will prove.


(II.) Kissing a distracting blur?

Moreover, it is difficult for your eyes to focus on a face from kissing distance. [3] Trying to focus on the face instead of looking at a blur becomes a big distraction and takes away from the experience of kissing. Try putting a big object really close to your face; it's going to turn really blurry, and you will have to constantly re-focus your eyes in order to see it... Keeping your eyes open is an unnecessary hassle that takes away from the kissing experience.


(III.) Causing a tense moment to be less tense

Although it is certainly a very passionate and romantic activity, French kissing often makes both parties feel uneasy and vulnerable. [3] If both parties have their eyes open and are staring at each other, it only makes the situation more awkward and uncomfortable. Closing their eyes makes both parties feel more at ease and takes away from the uneasiness and tension that naturally comes during intimate moments like these. This is similar to why many couples choose to turn off the lights during sex.

...

For these reasons, French kissing with closed eyes is better than French kissing with open eyes.

[1] http://books.google.com...
[2] http://www.eroticcosmetics.com...
[3] http://sciencefocus.com...

Thank you. I am eager to read my opponent's refutations.
Hardcore.Pwnography

Con

As side Con, if I am able to even establish one reason why French kissing is better with your eyes open, then I have won this debate. I assume that Pro means that both parties would keep their eyes closed for the length of the kiss.

I agree that French kissing with eyes closed is more romantic, but opening your eyes from time to time during the kiss can lead to a better relationship. Therefore, it is much better, however less romantic, to open your eyes from time to time during the kiss. I will get more into this later.

First I will go into refutation.

(I.) Sacrifice sight, Enhance touch

Here, Pro provides an useless source of a book on psychology, that he probably did not even read.

This argument was basically about how not being able to see increases your other senses, in particular, the sense of touch.

However this is not true. It is not based on scientific fact, and is merely a myth, just like the myth that blind people can hear better, and touch better.
http://www.ehow.com...;
(scroll down to blindness and touch).
Therefore, closing your eyes does not enhance the feeling of touch, it is just a myth. Therefore, it does not improve the quality of the French kiss in this way.

(II.) Kissing a distracting blur?

First off, in the source you provided, it says "Most people can’t focus on anything as close as a face at kissing distance so closing your eyes saves them from looking at a distracting blur or the strain of trying to focus".

Therefore, there are some people who can focus on things that are close. Therefore, for those people, keeping your eyes open will not be an unneccesary hassle, and would not take away from the kissing experience but can actually benefit the relationship (more on this later). Pro has provided an argument that is not always true, therefore, it is an invalid argument.

(III.) Causing a tense moment to be less tense

Pro says, "If both parties have their eyes open and are staring at each other, it only makes the situation more awkward and uncomfortable."

However, I disagree. I would say that when both parties keep their eyes open, they can stare into each others eyes, allowing for more romantic action to be shared.

http://people.howstuffworks.com...

The following is taken directly from the site:

"Professor Arthur Aron, of the State University of New York at Stonybrook, has studied what happens when people fall in love and has found that simply staring into each other's eyes has tremendous impact.In an experiment he conducted, Professor Aron put strangers of the opposite sex together for 90 minutes and had them discuss intimate details about themselves. He then had them stare into each other's eyes for four minutes without talking. The results? Many of the subjects felt a deep attraction for their partner after the experiment, and two even ended up getting married six months later."

This shows that indeed, staring into each others eyes allows them to share feelings and feel deeper for the other, ultimately creating a more romantic bond and improving the relationship.

Now time for some Arguments:

I will keep my arguments short due to lack of space.

1. Religion:

Many religions support chastity and abstinence, and if like you say, French kissing is more romantic with eyes closed, it is very likely that the kiss would lead to something more, like sex, as it is foreplay. This would cause a lot of internal struggle with the religious party, as they would have to deny sex in order to maintain their vow, and potentially ruin the relationship. The other choice is to continue with sex and break their vow to themselves, causing an ethical struggle for identity, as to many people, religion is very important to them.

2. Sorry I kissed your eyes!

Pro did not specify when eyes would be closed during a French kiss. Therefore, if you have your eyes closed during the moment leading up to the kiss (when you are leaning forward), it is possible that you could miss and perhaps kiss their eyes or nose. This is very unromantic and would not improve the relationship as a kiss should. Therefore, keeping your eyes closed harms the relationship and is not better.

3. Gauging Reactions:

During a long kiss, it is advisable to open your eyes sometimes, to guage the reaction of your partner.
http://www.savvy-women-magazine.com...
If your partner looks disgusted, then you know to stop kissing her. If you have your eyes closed the entire time, you would not see this. This can harm your relationship with her. If your partner looks happy, you would know that you are doing something right, and this could potentially improve your relationship with her. Therefore, kissing with your eyes closed is not better, as it can ruin your relationship. By occasionally opening your eyes, you could potentially improve your relationship.

4. More Romantic:

Gazing deep into each other's eyes while kissing is much more romantic, as you can share alot of feelings during this time.

Vote CON!



Debate Round No. 2
InVinoVeritas

Pro

(Con misinterprets the terms of a debate of this nature. The burden of proof is equal and shared.)

---

First off, Con concedes that kissing with eyes closed is more romantic. Let us remember that a French kiss is strictly an act of romance.

Arguments:

(I.) Sacrifice sight, Enhance Touch:
Con claims that my psychology book is a "useless source" (and then ironically provides an eHow article as a source.) Con also claims that I probably did not read the psychology book, which is blatant slander.

Contrary to the opponent's claims, taking away a sense can accentuate other senses. In support of this: "[i]n one experiment, people who had spent 90 minutes sitting quietly blindfolded became better at locating the direction of sounds they heard." [1]

Therefore, closing your eyes can increase touch sensitivity of the tongue and cause increased pleasure, as a result.

(II.) Kissing a distracting blur?
Indeed, based on my source's statement, a minority of people do not have this problem. Hence, for a majority people, French kissing with opened eyes is not ideal, so, all in all, kissing with eyes closed is better.

"Pro has provided an argument that is not always true, therefore, it is an invalid argument." This is false. Again, the burden of proof is split and even.

(III.) Causing a tense moment to be less tense:
Yes, staring into each other's eyes can be romantic, but the study that Con provided only mentions staring into each other's eyes in general... not kissing distance. For a majority of people, as my prior argument suggests, people cannot even stare into each other's eyes effectively, since all they see is a blur and have to constantly re-focus their vision. Hence, staring into each other's eyes from kissing distance is not effective, and this has yet to be effectively refuted by the opponent.

Refutations:

1. Religion:
French kissing is often viewed as an act of foreplay in its, regardless of whether the parties' eyes are opened or closed. According to some religious figures, acts of kissing between men and women that happen for extended periods of time are sexual advances in themselves; and some say that any act of kissing between young people is sexual and unacceptable. [2] It is the responsibility of these religious people to do what they believe; if they believe that kissing with eyes closed is against their moral values, they should not engage in it. If a religious person kisses with eyes closed, there is a strong chance that immoral foreplay is intended... Therefore, this argument does not prove that French kissing with eyes closed is worse.

2. Sorry I kissed your eyes!:
The "leaning forward" is not part of a French Kiss. Based on the given definition in my first round, French kissing involves contact. Therefore, Con's argument is null.

3. Gauging Reactions:
If the partner were disgusted, the partner would stop and say so. French kissing is consensual and either party can stop whenever he or she chooses. Hence, there is no need to gauge whether or not the partner "looks disgusted" or not.

4. More Romantic:
The opponent blatantly stated before in his argument that French kissing with your eyes closed is more romantic, so this is a contradiction.

[1] http://www.readthehook.com...
[2] http://www.boundlessline.org...
Hardcore.Pwnography

Con

Okay so let's get into the last round.
Pro says, "Let us remember that a French kiss is strictly an act of romance."
Let me say something back to that.

Let us remember that a more romantic kiss, does not necessarily constitute to a better french kiss.

French kisses are an act of intimacy, not romance. You can have a romantic relationship with your girlfriend of two weeks, but you cannot have an intimate relationship with them. The time has been too short.

Intimacy is saved for longer relationships, more commited relationships. You don't have couples french kissing each other after they've only been dating for two weeks. It takes time to develop that trust, and to reach that stage.

Therefore, french kisses are not meant for romance, but meant to strengthen the relationship, an act of intimacy. Therefore, kissing with your eyes closed may be more romantic, but as French kisses are not acts of romance, it does not constitute to a better french kiss.

Now that this is out of the way, let us move into refutation.

(I.) Sacrifice sight, Enhance Touch:

I notice here that Pro does not deny not having read the book. Please read the source you provide, Pro.
Pro essentially says that in a study, hearing becomes better due to blindfolding.
Maybe that is true, but hearing is not involved in any way in a french kiss.

Therefore this argument is invalid, as I have already proven in my previous rebuttal that touch is not enhanced in any way (see the article).

(II.) Kissing a distracting blur?

Pro concedes here that a minority of people do not have this problem.
Let me remind people that this resolution is "Romantic French kissing is better with eyes closed", it is not "Romantic French kissing is better most people with eyes closed."
This original resolution encompasses all people, so if some people do not have this problem, then the resolution is false. The majority is not always correct.

Consider this:
In the past, the US allowed slavery of African Americans. In this case, the majority of people supported this. But there was a minority who did not.
So what Pro is saying is: for majority of people, slavery is a good thing, so all in all, slavery is a good thing.
No, what they were doing was still wrong, just because they are the majority does not entitle them to be correct.

Let me also remind people that arguments must always be true, for it to be considered valid.
Consider the resolution: Murder is legal.
In this case, the argument: Murder should be illegal for blacks since statistically they have high crime rates, is not valid. Not all blacks commit crimes, so in this case, you isolate the blacks who do not commit crimes, as they are included in the argument.

In this resolution, the people who can focus are included in the resolution. Therefore, they may find opening their eyes during the kiss better as they do not have that problem. Therefore, for them, closing their eyes does not neccessarily make the kiss better.

(III.) Causing a tense moment to be less tense:

Note that Pro concedes that staring is romantic here.
What Pro does not realize is that he has agreed with me here.

He says that staring into each other's eyes at kissing distance is ineffective.
He agrees that staring into eyes is romantic.
Is that not a contradiction? He believes that staring is romantic, but staring at kissing distance is ineffective. But staring at kissing distance is included in the previous assertion he made.

Consider this:
Pro says: I like fruit. I don't like oranges.
He has essentially contradicted himself, as he has asserted that he likes fruit. Later he contradicts himself as oranges is part of the general category of fruit, and was included when he said: I like fruit.

Furthermore, I have already explained in my previous refutation why the majority is not always correct.

Rebuilding

1.Religion
Pro claims that this argument proves nothing.
However I disagree. According to Pro, french kissing is more romantic with your eyes closed. So, if you have your eyes open, it is less romantic, meaning it is less likely to lead to sex.
Therefore, having your eyes open during a french kiss is better for religious people, as they are less likely to break their abstinence vows
Pro says: religious people should not kiss then. The inevitability of that fact is that somewhere, sometime, a relgious couple will kiss before marriage. I have already proven that the resolution accompasses all people, so if it is worse for some people, then the resolution is false

2.Sorry I kissed your eyes!
You must study before a test to do well. You must strecth before you run to run well. You must lean forward with your eyes open to french kiss well. Every action must have an action leading up to it. Therefore, it is included in a process. Therefore, leaning forward is included in the process of a french kiss. Therefore this argument is still valid

3.Gauging Reactions
In a relationship, you dont want to hurt feelings, so you would not do that

4.More Romantic
Note: Pro has stated that staring into eyes is more romantic.


Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PeacefulChaos 5 years ago
PeacefulChaos
Just remember one of the most important rules: there are no absolutes in debate. This includes the last statement as well.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Again, the burden of proof is assumed to be shared and equal.

Good debate.

An important skill for debate is conciseness. Please don't blame the character limit. We faced the same restrictions throughout this debate. Thanks.
Posted by Hardcore.Pwnography 5 years ago
Hardcore.Pwnography
No, I meant as long as I have a case where romantic french kissing is better with the eyes open, then I have disproved the resolution.

No matter, good debate.
Sorry for the one liners at the end, I ran out of space.

Note to InVinoVeritas, please make your future debates 8000 characters long. I did not notice when I accepted.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Determining if something is "better" means everything needs to be taken into consideration... and the pros and cons of the issue both need to be weighed.

A single con doesn't make something, all in all, better or worse. All pros and cons need to be weighed for that sort of conclusion to be made.
Posted by Hardcore.Pwnography 5 years ago
Hardcore.Pwnography
As long as I can prove a case where romantic french kissing is better with eyes open, I win, do I not?
The reason why I believe that Pro has to prove that in all cases, french kissing is better with eyes closed, is because the resolution suggests this. It is not, Sometimes, Romantic french kissing is better with eyes closed. As long as I give one case where eyes open is better, I win do I not?
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Thank you very much, Maikuru. Indeed, the burden of proof is shared and equal.
Posted by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
I wouldn't give arguments to Pro for presenting a single benefit of closed eyes, nor would I give it to Con for presenting one benefit of the alternative. Unless otherwise noted, it can be assumed that the burden of each participant is shared and equal. This is especially true for cases of subjective preference, where a single example of superiority proves little and may not necessarily refute opposing arguments.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Resolved: Green apples are the best
Pro: Green apples are the best
Con: Green apples are not the best, other apples are the best.

Pro argument: People say green apples taste better, according to study X, so they are better.
Con argument: People say green apples have a displeasing color, according to study Y, so other apples, such as red ones, are better.

According to your theory, if no time is given for refutations is given, con automatically wins...? The only conclusion that could be made from the debate is that there are both pros and cons to green apples, and hence, voters would decide which side presented stronger claims to prove whether, all in all, green apples are the best or not relative to other types of apples.
Posted by Hardcore.Pwnography 5 years ago
Hardcore.Pwnography
No, that's not ridiculous at all. That's how any debate works.
You're side Pro, you have to prove indefinitely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that french kissing is better with the eyes closed. If there is even one reason why french kissing is better with your eyes open, then you have lost, as you have not proven your side.

Consider this:

Resolved: Green apples are the best
Pro: Green apples are the best
Con: Green apples are not the best, other apples are the best.

All con has to do is give an example of another apple and prove why that apple is the best.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
"As side Con, if I am able to even establish one reason why French kissing is better with your eyes open, then I have won this debate."

Uhhhhh... Hey, Con, that's completely ridiculous. The debate is over whether one side is, all in all, better than the other. There are probably positives and negatives to both sides, obviously... You seem to be very misinformed about how this works.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by LiberalHoyaLawya 5 years ago
LiberalHoyaLawya
InVinoVeritasHardcore.PwnographyTied
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Total points awarded:32 
Reasons for voting decision: I credit Con for dismantling Pro's first premise (re: touch sensation) through his superior use of cited material, but Pro was more persuasive on every other point. Con didn't appreciate that the burden of proof was totally equal (as Pro's debate terms provided that "Con is arguing that [french kissing] is better when eyes are open"), so his attacks on Pro's generalizations were misguided. Also, Con's attempts to distinguish between romance and intimacy were a stretch. Close, but Pro won.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
InVinoVeritasHardcore.PwnographyTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I'm impressed that both sides came with so much to say, and even found relevant references, for such an obviously subjective topic. Both made good arguments. A tie.
Vote Placed by Stephen_Hawkins 5 years ago
Stephen_Hawkins
InVinoVeritasHardcore.PwnographyTied
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Reasons for voting decision: A fair few of Hardcore's arguments were completely refuted to the point where they should have simply been dropped, and Veritas had a fair few arguments himself which worked very well in themselves. He wins.