The Instigator
revleader5
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
wingnut2280
Con (against)
Winning
25 Points

Rudy Giuliani is a fool and could never help this country.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/23/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,794 times Debate No: 869
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (14)

 

revleader5

Pro

I have made this debate 4 rounds so that me and wingnut2280 have a chance to say what we will be talking about over the next four rounds.

My position- I think Rudy Giluliani has no experience with leadership. He merely put his face on 9/11, he didn't do a ton.
He...
-will give huge tax cuts to the rich(will cite my source in round 2)
-acted like he did it all during 9/11(cite my source in round 2)
-fears Ron Paul(cite my source in round 2)
-got drowned out by Ron Paul supporters at a speech he made.
wingnut2280

Con

Let me first start by saying a few things about the debate. I expect to lose even if I dominate the debate because of the overwhelming number of Paul supporters online. Also, I myself have bounced back and forth between Rudy and Ron, but have decided to caucus for Giuliani for reasons I will explain here, despite my affinity for much of Paul's preachings.

I address your points first.

1) Tax cuts

This is actually a common misconception about the entire Republican party as well as Rudy. Rudy cuts taxes across the board proportionally. For example, if we were to issue a 5% tax cut, a man making 100 would get 5 back whereas a man making 10 would only get 50 cents. This is where the misconception comes from. Rudy and republicans do give tax cuts to the rich, but not exclusively.
There is a reason. History shows us bottom up economics don't work. When we burden corporations and the wealthy with heavy taxes, they are able to simply pass that burden down to the poor and middle class. Look at oil companies. If we provide them tax breaks, they pass that on to the consumer, and the opposite is equally true. As the price of crude goes through the roof, gas prices stay level because we aren't molesting the corporations. Providing tax cuts exclusively to the poor creates a stagnant economy.

So, Rudy does not give tax cuts to the wealthy exclusively, and tax cuts across the board (including the rich) is a good thing.

2) Leadership

Rudy does not take full and functional credit for 9/11. This is also a flaw of popular opinion. It is where he gets a lot of his notoriety, but he acknowledges that he does not deserve some kind of iconic treatment, but merely acted well when placed in a terrible position.

Also, his leadership status is not contigent on 9/11. He held the third highest position in the Justice Dpt. and was mayor of New York, which is the 5th largest executive position in the country including all states and the nation itself. His leadership as mayor in the seven years BEFORE 9/11 even occured would be enough to warrant him office alone. I will shower you with statistics if you wish, but the turn around NYC saw under Rudy was phenomenal and I want him to do to our country what he did to that city.

3) Ron Paul

I don't see how those last two points, even if they are true, reflect at all on Rudy's ability to be a great president. I realize you are an avid Paul supporter, but that bears no weight on Guiliani or his ability to be president. Also, the fact that Paul supporters drowned him out is the reason Paul is only carrying 2% of the nomination and, again, does not reflect Guiliani's ability to lead. I could get into a whole different debate on Paul, but he has no weight on Rudy's functionality as president.

By the way, I am glad you have made this 4 rounds and I look forward to your response.
Debate Round No. 1
revleader5

Pro

revleader5 forfeited this round.
wingnut2280

Con

To sum up, Rudy is the quintessential republican. He observes the conservative notions of increased security the typical candidates like Fred Thompson observe, while simultaneously championing Ron Paul's concepts of smaller government. The difference is, Rudy applies them in practical scenarios where they will actually work in the REAL WORLD. Being correct in principle is great, but we need a president who can apply these things and make them work.

Giuliani's record BEFORE 9/11 is outstanding. The reason I want him to be president is so he can do to our country what he did to that city. His leadership during the tough times during and after 9/11 are just an additional reason I would vote him in.
Debate Round No. 2
revleader5

Pro

1) Tax cuts
Ron Paul has never voted for a tax increase. As for voting for tax cuts, he is not into big business, and SPECIAL INTERESTS. He doesn't give huge tax cuts to big companies unless they deserve it.

2) Leadership

Rudy does not take full and functional credit for 9/11- This is what you said. Google Rudy Giuliani in the images section, you'll get him making speeches about 9/11, posters saying how much he helped. So, according to popular opinion he does, but he really doesn't? Isn't it what the public beleives that really matters? When people come and complain to him that he stole the credit for 9/11, he tells them, THAT'S a RUMOR. So everyone would be happy, people who think he did it all on 9/11, and people who THINK he's an honest guy about 9/11. Did you by any chance hear the recording of him saying, "The towers are going to collapse?" DAYS BEFORE 9/11? Maybe he SHOULD get credit for it, for ACCOMPLICING IT!!!

3) Ron Paul

Well. Ron Paul. I have mentioned him, as the alternate to Rudy Giuliani. To tell you the truth, besides the 9/11 thing, every candidate besides Ron Paul is basically the same. Rudy Giuliani hopped the bandwagon of 9/11 and is using it as his ticket to the White House. Have you seen the youtube video where they counted how many times he said or referenced to 9/11 in only ONE DEBATE? Every one of his arguments makes a reference to 9/11.
wingnut2280

Con

1) Tax Cuts

Again, I don't know how Ron Paul makes Giuliani any less of a good candidate. Furthermore, Rudy's tax cuts credit is just as viable. He hasn't been in Congress like Paul because he was to busy gathering executive experience as Mayor of the biggest city in our country. He doesn't have the special interest risk because he isn't involved in Congressional gameplaying. Rudy has an outstanding grasp of how the economy works and will employ every stategy he used in NY to our country. He is a practical candidate who will employ great tools in order to both, better our country and protect our constitutional principles.

2) 9/11

So.....Rudy Giuliani is in bed with Radical Islamic terrorists? OK, well any reasonable person would see Rudy as humble. He did play a big part in the post-9/11 recovery, but he puts the credit on all of the volunteers etc. Popular opinion is not what matters. Rudy would only be a bad guy if he was actually doing these things.

3) Ron Paul

Again, I don't see how this would matter. Rudy has several differences between each of the candidates. Rudy would make practical and reasonable changes to the government, while still accompishing all of the things we need to get done.

Finally, the fact remains that Giuliani would make great changes to our nation just as he did to NYC during his tenure (including pre-9/11). The notion that Giuliani milks 9/11 is a popular misconception. It is, again, just another reason why he would be a GREAT president, regardless of Ron Paul. You have given me no reason to discredit Giuliani other than the fact that he may be an islamic terrorist who was an accomplice in 9/11. Obviously, this is absurd and I have no reason to doubt Guiliani's fantastic pre-9/11 record and the sucess he will being to the White House.
Debate Round No. 3
revleader5

Pro

revleader5 forfeited this round.
wingnut2280

Con

Let me just say again, Rudy is an economic genius. Other candidates want to make claims about votes they have made or companies they have turned around, but Rudy is the candidate who has made the drastic change we need already. He hasn't just voted on bills or run a small state in a mediocre way. Rudy has held the fifth highest executive office in the country and made REAL changes that no one else has. What he did for NY, even before 9-11, is remarkable and I can't wait to have him do the same for our country.
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by shwayze 9 years ago
shwayze
it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that we havent had a world war in over 60 years...due in large part to the United States policing the world. We're the most powerful nation in the history of the world and it is our duty to protect our allies and other countries from terrorism.
Posted by shwayze 9 years ago
shwayze
it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that we havent had a world war in over 60 years...due in large part to the United States policing the world. We're the most powerful nation in the history of the world and it is our duty to protect our allies and other countries from terrorism.
Posted by TJBric 9 years ago
TJBric
Both of those World Wars began without having anything to do with our country. So implying that because of them we need to "pre-emptively" stop these things by having bases around the world is ridiculous. We should be worried about OUR country, therefor bases on our own land will do just fine.

Also, I never said these bases were oppressive, just not necessary.

How is it you think the only way to not be "isolationist" is to have our military meddling in the business of other countries?
Posted by Matt_Jones 9 years ago
Matt_Jones
I would have loved to have this debate. The Pro has possibly the easiest fight one could have: Pointing out a few of the hundred reasons why Rudy is the last person who should be President of the United States. This debate really had no place to discuss Ron Paul. You pulled a typical Republican move which was move away from the main issue and raise another. This was a flop. I have to give my vote to the con. I think it is foolish of him for wanting to expand the Bush Legacy and vote for another Republican.

The crisis we are in: The Economy, The Environment, The War in Iraq and our growing problem with Iran along with the current trampling of the Constitution by the President and his party can only be solved by the Democratic Party.

I would debate any Republican on this issue and I would ask them to be expected to be defeated by an 18 year old.
Posted by shwayze 9 years ago
shwayze
if by war monger you mean peace keeper than yes. we had two WORLD WARS in a span of 20 years. Since the end of WWII, we have stationed bases all around the world in order to keep peace and be PRE-EMPTIVE. What would be really foolish is to bring everyone home, then have a massive coup or violent attack, and then send troops back to clean up the mess. ya that makes a lot of sense....I don't hear countries demanding we take away our bases around the world. They aren't oppressive, they are there to keep peace and thwart anything before it actually happens.
Posted by TJBric 9 years ago
TJBric
Shwayze you apparently have no idea what isolationism is. Isolationism is cutting your country off from all others in every aspect.

The only aspect that Ron Paul wants to remove from other countries is our military. So you think any country which isn't constantly at battle with others is isolationist?

Ron Paul wants the United States to practice diplomacy and trade with other nations, but just not lead unprovoked attacks and stations our troops in permanent bases around the world.

He's not an isolationist, you're just a war monger.
Posted by shwayze 9 years ago
shwayze
revleader, you said: "..besides the 9/11 thing, every candidate besides Ron Paul is basically the same."

Seriously? Last time I checked, Ron Paul was the only candidate who wanted to become isolationists.
Posted by TJBric 9 years ago
TJBric
The idea that Rudy single handedly cleaned up NYC is ridiculous. After the high crime of the late 80s, just about every big city in the United States experienced a dramatic drop in crime rates.

Also Wingnut mentioned that despite "drowing out" Rudy supporters Ron Paul got 2% of the vote. Well two states down. In one Paul got more than three times the votes that Giuliani did, and in the other they practically tied.

Commenting on Alexthemoderate championing Rudy for getting rid of the adult stores and strip clubs in time square....you say that as if they weren't legitimate businesses. What Rudy did was actually penalize people because he didn't agree with their type of business by changing laws to force them out. As nice as it is to have Times Square a tourist destination and a spot representing the city, one can't merely reshape a city by excluding business types that you don't like.
Posted by ReaganConservative 9 years ago
ReaganConservative
revleader5 are you serious? As mayor of New York City, Rudy led 8 million people, a greater population than some states, and he did some remarkable things. He turned NYC's $2.3 billion budget defecit into a surplus; he cut crime in half, reduced the murder rate by 66%, and turned NYC into the safest large city in America; he will fight to keep tax rates low while also simplifying the tax code and reducing the corporate tax rate; he will achieve what he did in NYC which is a lower tax burden for working families, a growing economy, and robust private sector job creation, all of which will foster economic growth for all Americans. He saved New Yorkers $9 billion in taxes. He took 460,000 people off of welfare by giving the poor a latter to climb out of poverty. While supporting the 2nd Amendment, he fought crime by taking illegal guns out of the hands of criminals. He is the ONLY presidential candidate who has experienced a national attack by Islamic extremists first hand, and he was put into the position of leading 8 million people through the disaster. He wants to control the borders, Americanize immigrants, and deport illegal immigrants as soon as they commit a crime; and also, he wants to win the War in Iraq and protect the United States.

You think he has no leadership experience? Oh so leading 8 million people was nothing? Try harder next time, champ.
Posted by GeoffG 9 years ago
GeoffG
Ok, definitely take Rudy over Paul. He's a gyno for God's sake!!! Haha, just kidding, that has nothing to do with it.
But seriously, on principle, Paul is great, but in practice he would do an enormous amount of damage to our country.
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Vote Placed by U.n 11 months ago
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