The Instigator
Atrag
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Jonathan11
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Russia's so-called 'anti-gay law' does not significantly violate the rights of homosexuals

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Jonathan11
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/2/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,669 times Debate No: 37273
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

Atrag

Pro

This debate concerns paragraph 6.21 to the Russian code of Administrative Violations. Here is a full translation of the paragraph:

"6.21. Propaganda of non - traditional sexual relationships among minors.

1. Propaganda of non - traditional sexual relationships among minors, expressed in the dissimation of information aimed at forming non - traditional sexual attitudes among minors, attractiveness of non - traditional sexual relationships, distorted image of social equality of traditional and non-traditional sexual relationships, or the imposition of information about non - traditional sexual relations, which can attract interest to such relations, if these actions do not make up a criminal offence, -

shall entail the imposition of an administrative fine in the amount of 4000 to 5000 rubles for citizens; in the amount of 40 000 to 50 000 rubles for oficials; and in the amount of 800 000 to 1000 000 rubles for organizations, which can in the latter case be replaced by suspension of activity for up to 90 days.

2. Actions provided for by paragraph 1 of this Article, committed with the use of the media and (or) information and telecommunication networks (including network "Internet"),if these actions do not make up a criminal offense, -
shall entail the imposition of an administrative fine on citizens in the amount of 50 000 to one 100 000 rubles; for officials - from 1000000 to 200000 rubles; for legal entities - 1000 000 rubles or administrative suspension of activity for up to 90 days.

3. Actions provided for by paragraph 1 of this Article, committed by a foreign national or a stateless person, if these actions do not make up a criminal offense, -
shall be punishable by a fine of 4000 to 5000 rubles followed by administrative expulsion from the Russian Federation or administrative arrest for up to 15 days followed by expulsion from the Russian Federation.

4. Actions provided for by paragraph 1 of this Article, committed by a foreign national or a stateless person with the use of the media and (or) information and telecommunication networks (including network "Internet") if these actions do not make up a criminal offense, -
shall be punishable by a fine of 50 000 to one 100 000 rubles followed by administrative expulsion from the Russian Federation or administrative arrest for up to 15 days followed by administrative expulsion from the Russian Federation."
Jonathan11

Con

So what you saying Putins propaganda law does not significantly violate the right of homosexuals. That is ridicules, so forcing citizens to tell minors that being gay is a lie and that it does not exist is probably one of the worst things you could do to violate the rights of homosexuals, Your claim is outrageous and you must not know what violate means. For those reasons that is why I believe that it does violate the rights of homosexuals.
Debate Round No. 1
Atrag

Pro

Con has misinterpreted the legislation. It no point does it encourage citizens to say anything to minors. Therefore, stating that the legislation 'tells minors that being gay is a lie' is incorrect. If Con does not understand the legislation then I encourage him to send me a message to help with his interpretation or else merely spend time over deciphering it before commenting.

I advance the following arguments:

1) This is not a criminal law but a administrative one. It is similar to laws that prevent showing children sexually erotic or violent images and the only punishment is a fine or suspension of activities.

2) Any detriment to a homosexual's rights is not significant. Homosexuals in Russia can no longer talk to minors about homosexuality in a way that promotes it. This is not a significant detriment to the homosexual.
Jonathan11

Con

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
On this website it shows a RUSSIAN MAN BEING ARRESTED AND CRIMINALLY CHARGED WITH PROTEST PRO-GAY.

And it is the law in Russia that you cannot tell minors under the age of 18 what gay is, that is what propaganda means, I guess you don't know what the word means.

But still denying the right to be homosexual or marry someone of the same sex (which is the reason athletes are protesting to boycott the 2014 Olympics in Sochi Russia), but the one thing your not understanding is your not gay nor am I but you cant assume they are not being violated because you DONT KNOW what it means to be homosexual.
Debate Round No. 2
Atrag

Pro

"On this website it shows a RUSSIAN MAN BEING ARRESTED AND CRIMINALLY CHARGED WITH PROTEST PRO-GAY."

Consistent with what I said in my previous argument, he was not criminal charged. He was charged with an administrative offence. It is very common in many countries that if you commit an offence then you have your visa removed and you are deported. That is exactly what happened in this case and is not a significant violation of his rights. It only had a right to be in the country to the extent that he obeyed by its law.

My opponent yet again questions my ability to use a dictionary. I hate posting definitions here but he has forced my hand:

prop"a"gan"da(1)

noun
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.

3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.

I would welcome my opponent's explanation on how this equates to gay propaganda meaning telling 'minors under the age of 18 what gay is'.

My opponent states that I cannot assume that homosexuals aren't being violated. This is true. However, the purpose of this debate is for him to argue that the law 'significantly violates' the rights of gay individuals in Russia. It is not enough for him to merely state that I can't prove they are not being violated.

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
Jonathan11

Con

This website will show that the law prohibits the knowledge of homosexuals to minors.

http://www.policymic.com...

On June 30 this year, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed into law a bill banning the "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to MINORS," thus opening a new, dark chapter in the history of gay rights in Russia. The law caps a period of ferocious activities by the Russian government aimed at limiting the rights of the country"s lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people.

The definition of PROPAGANDA
1. Information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
2. The dissemination of such information as a political strategy.

So if Russia created the African Propaganda law, stating that Africans wouldn't be able to enter the country of Russia and that minors would be prohibited to have knowledge of "Blacks", and based on your arguments that it wouldn't violate the rights of Africans.
Debate Round No. 3
Atrag

Pro

I'm sorry, I can't pinpoint anywhere in that article that bans children having knowledge of homosexuality. Can you quote which sentence you interpret as saying this? What you have quoted doesn't state that at all.

I feel that this debate is just going to go round in circles. Propaganda means exactly what your definition says. That its used to promote something. Its not just the mere knowledge of homosexuality or else the law itself would be ilegal as a law that mentions homosexuality. It would cr"ate somewhat of a legal paradox!

"So if Russia created the African Propaganda law, stating that Africans wouldn't be able to enter the country of Russia and that minors would be prohibited to have knowledge of "Blacks", and based on your arguments that it wouldn't violate the rights of Africans"

Please quote in the law 1) where it says that gay people can't enter Russia and 2) where it prohibits knowledge of homosexuality, as opposed to promoting it.

You clearly see all information as propaganda. Here's a website about rape: http://en.wikipedia.org... Is this rape propaganda to you?
Jonathan11

Con

Please quote in the law 1) where it says that gay people can't enter Russia and 2) where it prohibits knowledge of homosexuality, as opposed to promoting it.

Since the 2014 Olympics are being held in Russia several homosexual athletes from countries such as Canada, U.S and European nations are considering boycotting the Olympics because their not allowed to "kiss" or "hold hands" with there partners or just to "act straight".

http://www.spiegel.de...
Debate Round No. 4
Atrag

Pro

Well the law in Russia is ambigious on this issue. It could be that public displays of affection broadcasting over TV could mean that those individuals could be fined under this law if it is said to be propaganda. This does not mean they cannot enter Russia all they have to do is not display affection in public. There are many cultures where kissing in public is prohibited amongst straight couples too. I maintain that although this may be an infingement of rights it does not constitute a significant violation.

You have not mentioned how the knowledge of homosexuality is prohibited.
Jonathan11

Con

I maintain that although this may be an infingement of rights it does not constitute a significant violation.

There is no way that not allowing a couple to show there love and affection towards each other is not a violation, that is outrageous not being able to show affection for the one you love is unacceptable and most would agree with me that that is a violation of not only our rights but our freedoms.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
The Russian Orthodox church needs to collapse just like the Soviet Union!

Watch episode 2 of Stephen Fry's Out There for an interesting insight/counter at your dissertation.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Shadowguynick 3 years ago
Shadowguynick
AtragJonathan11Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct is a tie. Both were polite toward each other. S/G is fine on both sides. Arguments goes to con. Pro seemed to not understand the definition of propaganda and how it is implemented. Even so, he failed to explain how homosexual's rights weren't being violated, in the sense that they were censored. Reliable sources is equal, neither side used many sources.