The Instigator
dinokiller
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Deku
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

SC2 Terran are too overpowered against Protoss

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/22/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,962 times Debate No: 13747
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (0)

 

dinokiller

Pro

First of all, i expect that my opponent plays Starcraft 2 and second, that he should have knowledge of terran and protoss units.

My arguments of Terran being overpowered:

1. The MMM strategy.
The MMM is known as the Marine, Marauder, Medivac which completely destroys any protoss resistance by the time the Terran army comes. Even without the medivac, the protoss gets destroyed easily as the Terran basic infantries are known to own all races basics.

2. The cost.
For example a marauder which cost 100 minerals and 25 gas.
It completely owns a stalker on its own while it costs 125 minerals and 25 gas.
To make the fact even worse, marauders are even faster to produce.

3. Counterstrategies
The terran has so many counter strategies against protoss, even more then the protoss has against terran. For example, the basic infantries. Terran just has to mass marines and marauders. Or if they use air units, terran only has to produce vikings which owns all air units. To make it even worse, terran can add reactors to double the production speed by allowing 2 constructions at the same time.

4. Map layout.
All maps are builded with only a ramp as an entrypoint.
The most advantage a person gets is a terran player as Terran could just wall of his base to prevent attacks. Protoss can wall too but in the end, his own units cant get out. Zerg can wall too, but serves no advantages as the zerg has the fastest unit production and the largest masses in begin.

I await the response of a fellow SC2 gamer.
Deku

Con

I actually play Toss as well, but we'll see how this goes.

1. MMM
MM(M) is easily countered by a strong zealot/stalker mix backed by either HT's or Colossi- A few good storms will obliterate a ground force, especially if he's teched to Medivacs rather than ghosts, and colossi guarantee that even if he attempts to kite your zealots he'll get melted. Earlier pushes can be easily defended by a sentry or two at the ramp, with a few Immortals to eat the Marauders if you please.

2. The Marauder is a ground to ground anti armor unit and the stalker is a ground armored unit- the stalker is meant to be countered by the marauder. Furthermore, the Stalker is meant to be warped in- if he'd getting marauder's faster than you're getting Stalkers it means you haven't gotten warpgates which means you deserve to loose.

3. Terran is free to mass marines and marauders only, but he will be obliterated by either HTs or Colossi. Vikings are eaten alive by blink stalkers.

4. I'd claim the ramp layout benefits Toss quite significantly as well- you often see players like HuK using a FF at the ramp to keep stuck in his main as his expos are obliterated, or vice-versa. Defensively, a single sentry stops all early aggression.
Debate Round No. 1
dinokiller

Pro

Hoh? A fellow sc2 player.

1. MMM
MM(M) is easily countered by a strong zealot/stalker mix backed by either HT's or Colossi- A few good storms will obliterate a ground force, especially if he's teched to Medivacs rather than ghosts, and colossi guarantee that even if he attempts to kite your zealots he'll get melted. Earlier pushes can be easily defended by a sentry or two at the ramp, with a few Immortals to eat the Marauders if you please.

I assure you, zealot + stalker are no match for MM(M) even without Medivac. Also, teching for HT or Colossi immediately is a guaranteed loss. First of all, HT are useless on their own, they have to research first for the storm and with so many requirements just to get a Templar Archive, by the time you begin researching, your terran opponent is already at your front door. Colossus are the same, with such a high cost and many requirements. Even if you get 1 or 2 of them out, your opponent still wrecks your army. Immortals are good against armored, but does only 20 damage against marines compared to the 50 damage against armored types. And since terran always have a reactor running up, you always face more marines then marauders.
You also mention that an early push is immediately stopped by a sentry but i disagree.
First of all, marines have guns. They shoot you, they dont even have to reach you. Secondly, the force field isnt permanent, it disappears after a while.

2. The Marauder is a ground to ground anti armor unit and the stalker is a ground armored unit- the stalker is meant to be countered by the marauder. Furthermore, the Stalker is meant to be warped in- if he'd getting marauder's faster than you're getting Stalkers it means you haven't gotten warpgates which means you deserve to loose.

Then you have proven my point because sentries sucks because of its high gas cost and its weak, stalkers gets owned by marauders and marines and zealots gets shot to death before they can reach your opponent army. I have proven that Terran is overpowered.

3. Terran is free to mass marines and marauders only, but he will be obliterated by either HTs or Colossi. Vikings are eaten alive by blink stalkers.

You forget something. Colossi and HT are in higher tech tier where upon marine and marauders are avaible right in the beginning. Protoss players doesnt have the time to mass Colossi or HT to counter the MMM (or just MM) army.
And I mention that vikings are to destroy protoss air,what kind of an idiot sends vikings against stalkers? (Unless he has an army prepared to take on stalkers.)

4. I'd claim the ramp layout benefits Toss quite significantly as well- you often see players like HuK using a FF at the ramp to keep stuck in his main as his expos are obliterated, or vice-versa. Defensively, a single sentry stops all early aggression.

Uhh i cant make much of it, i see 2 times his and both are referring to something else...
Cmon make this clearer...
Deku

Con

1. Stalkers and zealots alone, no. Which is why you use sentries to either gimp marine damage or, more likely, use forcefields to make sure he can't kite your zealots. Zealots actually tear through Terran bio when the Terran is backed into a wall.
Yes, the Terran is at your front door while you're researching Storm, but the good news is you can drop a forcefield and keep him stuck out there- or better yet, only allow a few of his soldiers in and kill them while the rest are trapped. Two colossi with extender thermal lances are enough to turn most battles to your side if you've been keeping up in macro- if you fire them at the same place, that's *60* damage, enough to kill 8-9 marines with *every* attack and bring marauders down to 5 health with 2. If he's used stim (he has) then those marauders are dead. I generally don't recommend Immortals except against early Marauder pushes or again Terran mech, but you don't "always" have more marauders than marines.

2. The stalker does not get 'owned' by marines, only by marauders because, again, the marauder is built to fight armored units. Sentries do not 'suck' and zealots will only get shot to death before they reach the opposing army if you choose to engage him in the open. You let him run some of his guys up your ramp, throw down an FF and kill the stranded troops.

3. If the attack is MMM then yes, you should be at T3- the medivac is a tier 3 unit. If he comes at you with just marines and marauders, you have to abuse forcefield. The idea behind blink stalkers is that you, if you mix them into your army, you will be more then prepared if he sends vikings at you (or any other air unit honestly.)

4. My mistake, I excluded the words "the opponent" The post should have read "I'd claim the ramp layout benefits Toss quite significantly as well- you often see players like HuK using a FF at the ramp to keep the opponent stuck in his main as his expos are obliterated, or vice-versa. Defensively, a single sentry stops all early aggression."

What I mean by this is that, while the Terran can wall off, the Protoss player can take advantage of the ramp as well by blocking it with forcefield. This serves two purposes-: first, if the Terran has expanded to his natural, you may divide up his army by placing a forcefield at his ramp- any troops in his main will be unable to reinforce his natural, giving you the upper hand. Furthermore, early in the game you can use a forcefield at your ramp to cut his army in half and defeat it or to keep him out of your base all together. So, the ramp benefits you as well.
Debate Round No. 2
dinokiller

Pro

1. Stalkers and zealots alone, no. Which is why you use sentries to either gimp marine damage or, more likely, use forcefields to make sure he can't kite your zealots. Zealots actually tear through Terran bio when the Terran is backed into a wall.
Yes, the Terran is at your front door while you're researching Storm, but the good news is you can drop a forcefield and keep him stuck out there- or better yet, only allow a few of his soldiers in and kill them while the rest are trapped. Two colossi with extender thermal lances are enough to turn most battles to your side if you've been keeping up in macro- if you fire them at the same place, that's *60* damage, enough to kill 8-9 marines with *every* attack and bring marauders down to 5 health with 2. If he's used stim (he has) then those marauders are dead. I generally don't recommend Immortals except against early Marauder pushes or again Terran mech, but you don't "always" have more marauders than marines.

And here comes my answer again, Colossus and HT are at a higher research tier where upon MM are avaible right in the beginning. Even if you instantly tech to Colossus, you get beaten up as the requirement sucks up your resources and building even 1 colossus isnt cheap stuff. And back to my point. MM are avaible in the beginning so if you were just teching to colossus and just managed to make 1 (You can only make 1 with the time given), then you are screwed as your army is small because of the teching and 1 colossus isnt gonna do much. Yes you can research the Thermal Lances but that requires resources and time. You dont have the time. HT is nearly useless without storm and is also at a higher research tier.
Yes Sentries does help if you can block your opponents attack wave, except ALL terran units are ranged. You can try and block your opponents army and split them to half, but both side of the splitted army can still attack rendering your powerfull FF nearly useless. Also, you mention zealots own if they do get close, but do they even have the chance to get close? Terrans can hit and run or use stimpack to own you. Even worse is if marauders has the upgrade which slows all your units that gets shot by a marauder.

2. The stalker does not get 'owned' by marines, only by marauders because, again, the marauder is built to fight armored units. Sentries do not 'suck' and zealots will only get shot to death before they reach the opposing army if you choose to engage him in the open. You let him run some of his guys up your ramp, throw down an FF and kill the stranded troops.

Like I said, FF the ramp isnt gonna do much as your opponents both splitted army can still attack you. Even when you manage to surround them with zealots, they could just focus fire or spray them to death with stimpack.
Like I said, terrans always have the open ground advantage and if they do get up your ramp, its wont matter whether he retreated or not as long as he focus fires or uses stimpack.
And I say marine DOES own stalkers because they fire nearly 3x faster and 3 marines (150 minerals) owns a stalker (125 minerals 25 gas). You see now why its imbalanced, no?

3. If the attack is MMM then yes, you should be at T3- the medivac is a tier 3 unit. If he comes at you with just marines and marauders, you have to abuse forcefield. The idea behind blink stalkers is that you, if you mix them into your army, you will be more then prepared if he sends vikings at you (or any other air unit honestly.)

MM is still unstopable, even with FF. But even so, this is where also the unbalancement is. The Viking has the same range as a sieged tank which is ALOT, outranging all other air units in the game. Even if you mix them at your stalker, your terran opponent does the same. Also, if you bring in colossus while your opponent comes with vikings, they get shredded.

4. My mistake, I excluded the words "the opponent" The post should have read "I'd claim the ramp layout benefits Toss quite significantly as well- you often see players like HuK using a FF at the ramp to keep the opponent stuck in his main as his expos are obliterated, or vice-versa. Defensively, a single sentry stops all early aggression."
What I mean by this is that, while the Terran can wall off, the Protoss player can take advantage of the ramp as well by blocking it with forcefield. This serves two purposes-: first, if the Terran has expanded to his natural, you may divide up his army by placing a forcefield at his ramp- any troops in his main will be unable to reinforce his natural, giving you the upper hand. Furthermore, early in the game you can use a forcefield at your ramp to cut his army in half and defeat it or to keep him out of your base all together. So, the ramp benefits you as well.

With Siege Tanks, who needs to reinforce his natural expansion anyway?
Siege tanks if deployed into siege mode, has an ungodly range that can hit you from afar. It even does 50 damage + splash, ripping your army apart.

See how imbalanced it is?
Deku

Con

1. You seem to misunderstand the point of the forcefield at the ramp. First, by dividing the army you limit how much of it can attack you. Yes, his units are ranged but they do not have infinite range- only a small fraction will actually be able to attack your forces. Secondly, he will not be able to kite your zealots, meaning your zealots will be doing their full damage all the time- and Zealots counter marines and marauders HARD in this circumstance. Thirdly, he will not be able to fight your stalkers since he won't be able to see up your ramp. If executed properly, he should loose 4-6 marines/marauders and you'll loose at most a zealot or two, not counting anything you manage to pick off as he retreats.
Zealots own if they get close yes- they get the chance to get close when you corner them with a forcefield or research charge.

You can easily beat a Terran opponent by holding him at your ramp.
2. His entire army can *not* attack you because they can't all get in range. Furthermore, as I said before, he can't shoot units at the top of your ramp, only the zealots carving through his marauders.
The stalker's purpose is as follows in the marine/marauder vs. zealot/stalker matchup-
If the Terran player sees a zealot/stalker mix then he was two options in terms of engaging-
1. Stand and fight
2. Shuffle forward

If he chooses to stand and fight, the zealots will surround him and he will almost certainly loose- zealots just do too much damage. The stalkers aren't really useful at this point, the zealots are doing all the work.
If he chooses to shuffle forward, as is common, then he will not take damage from the zealots- but he will gimp his own damage, risk cornering himself, and still take damage from the stalkers. if you micro your zealots properly, by sending zealots home when their shields get depleted, then you may well get away with minimal loses and several dead marines and marauders.

3. You say MM is unstoppable, yet even in my league (Platinum) MM is highly uncommon- because, like it or not, FF micro counters MM. If you stop his marauders from running, that's it. They *can't* go toe to toe with zealots, even if they outnumber them. A single zealot will kill a marauder in under 10 seconds (13.33 dps for 125 health) vs over 20 seconds for a marauder to kill a zealot (6.6667 dps for 150 health)- despite the fact that a marauder costs more than a zealot. You can set him far behind you if you can properly use forcefields.

The viking (range 9) does not have the same range as a siege tank (range 7 not in siege mode, 13 in siege mode). First, if he's built enough vikings to be a problem then you can be certain he doesn't have as many ground troops as you. Second, if you have blink then you can easily hunt down and dispose of his vikings.

4. The same could be said of the Colossus- even more so in fact. The Colossi does more DPS to both armored and unarmored targets (18.18 to all targets) than a sieged tank (16.667 to armored, 11.667 to unarmored), does not do friendly fire, and I can chase his retreating army by walking right off the cliff and walking back up if chooses to chase me.

I recommend you watch Day9's videos or perhaps Horst's recent tutorials posted on the Toss forums if you want something Protoss specific. If you can properly hold off the early game aggression, Terran doesn't have much he can throw at you.
Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Brenavia 6 years ago
Brenavia
I wish I could have voted on this before voting period ended. I would vote Terran are OP.
Posted by dinokiller 6 years ago
dinokiller
yup
Posted by Dmetal 6 years ago
Dmetal
MM(M) should probably be more balanced, Banelings should be made faster to catchup to stimpack, and zealots should be made faster (pre-chargelot). I don't think they are so cheap that protoss don't stand a chance, though. I play as toss and beat terran players with similar skills (gold-plat).
Posted by dinokiller 6 years ago
dinokiller
Thats a problem actually since posting videos without others permission will end up with me sued :O
Posted by Deku 6 years ago
Deku
It is tough to determine a winner in these sort of discussion- the only type of 'real' evidence comes in the form of replays, but then the discussion becomes "did he loose because his race is under powered or because he played a bad game?", a question which requires to expertise on the part of the reader to answer. I *probably* should have mentioned the fact that at almost all levels of play the Protoss win against Terran more often than not- live and learn I suppose.
Posted by XStrikeX 6 years ago
XStrikeX
I mean, I'm not totally clueless about Starcraft II... I played 1 and liked it. And my friends talk about 2 a lot and I watch videos.
Posted by TheAtheistAllegiance 6 years ago
TheAtheistAllegiance
All I know is that Zeratul owns all.
Posted by XStrikeX 6 years ago
XStrikeX
well, if I go to a site where it explains the game, then it's going to be relatively biased and I would have to form my own opinion, not based on this debate. :O
Posted by mageist24 6 years ago
mageist24
I WANT TO TAKE THIS DEBATE SOOOo BADLY!!!
Posted by dinokiller 6 years ago
dinokiller
Also, Deku i forgot, if i ever catch you voting for yourself, i will make my vengeance sweet.
No votes have been placed for this debate.