The Instigator
liberty
Con (against)
Losing
31 Points
The Contender
brittwaller
Pro (for)
Winning
57 Points

SHOULD THE BE A MINIMUM WAGE

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/23/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,875 times Debate No: 4770
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (20)

 

liberty

Con

This is my first on-line debate and I am glad to see that I have a worthy opponent. I want to discuss the the important topic of minimum wage in THE UNITED STATES ONLY . It is risky to oppose to something most people agree on but I believe it to be fun and challenging. In my opening Argument I have decided to to just refer to my basic argument without much detail and save the real debating for round 2 and 3.
first of all minimum wage cost many jobs to the economy and workers of it especially the lower qualified ones. Also, most people who work for minimum wage are student and workers in training e.t.c and do it just to tell potential interviewers that they indeed have work experience, so evidently most of them intend to achieve more and the more the minimum wage rises the fewer of these people can be afforded to be hired by employers. Additionally getting rid of minimum wage will eventually lower prices of every day products because of the lower cost for in training workers, so both the managers, the lower qualified worker (who otherwise would be unemployed) and the costumer gain.
I am eagerly waiting to see your arguments to this my worthy opponent and wish you a good and fun debate
brittwaller

Pro

Thank you to my opponent for posting this and challenging me. I look forward to a good debate. I will respect your request to limit our discussion to the United States, although my arguments will apply in any case given; however, one good turn deserves another, so I ask that my opponent, liberty, limit his arguments to reality.

Affirmed: There should be a minimum wage.

"[F]irst of all minimum wage cost[s] many jobs to the economy and workers of it especially the lower qualified ones."

-Minimum wage exists in its common form as a way of protection for workers - especially the least qualified. It is in place as a shield from exploitation by employers.

"Also, most people who work for minimum wage are student and workers in training e.t.c and do it just to tell potential interviewers that they indeed have work experience, so evidently most of them intend to achieve more..."

-Certainly, many minimum-wagers are students or other young people, but certainly many are not. Without a given amount of innate intelligence, education, opportunity, and subsequently specialized skills - the state that many are in - minimum wage, with possible raises through the years, is the only kind of payment from legal work that they can expect throughout their lives. You also miss one of the primary, if not THE PRIME, reasons for any wage-labour in the first place: making money in order to survive, and beyond survival it is merely as matter of buying crap that you really don't need, which is of course produced by the employer of the wage-earner. From personal experience, I can say that I did not work as a host at Red Lobster when I was 16 (this was when they had those horrible fish shirts) to put it on my future resume - I did it for money. I personally intended to achieve more, as you say, but this isn't the case for myriad persons.

"...the more the minimum wage rises the fewer of these people can be afforded to be hired by employers."

-False. Inflation outpaces the rise in minimum wage by football fields at a time. By the time minimum wage catches up, Employer X has made more than enough profit to offset this. I am not familiar with any cases of a minimum-wage labourer being either fired or not hired because the current rate of minimum wage was raised. Until recently, the minimum wage was set at $5.25 an hour. At 40 hours a week, this comes to $840.00 a month before taxes. So if a person were single, they are still below the poverty line even though they work full-time. I infer that most employers, according to you, would start labourers below this mark, as it is the cost that is the issue of primacy here. Certainly, they could hire more workers... that work for less than it takes to live, the purpose of working. Unemployment would be at an all-time low, but poverty would be at an all-time high. Interesting...

"Additionally getting rid of minimum wage will eventually lower prices of every day products because of the lower cost for in training workers, so both the managers, the lower qualified worker (who otherwise would be unemployed) and the [consumer] gain."

-I doubt it. In any case, unfortunately, by the time that lower prices "eventually" came into sight, the gap between rich and poor would be a true chasm, and half of the new workers that were hired would be either homeless because they can't afford even the cheapest of rent or dead from starvation because they can't afford food. Civil strife would erupt, etc.

1. Why there should be a minimum wage:

We tyrants, tycoons, captains of industry, CEO's, presidents, moguls, barons, dukes, princes, and other excellent and successful people should give the little people SOMETHING - at least enough so that we won't go to the guillotine. Understand that we do not OWE them anything, but it is in our own self-interest to give them enough bread and pocket change to distract them from their unimportant and, for the most part, useless (their only true use is to generate profit for us) lives.

2. Why there MUST be a minimum wage:

Even if the minimum wage were set at $0.005 (two zeros on purpose), it MUST exist. Otherwise, employers could pay workers absolutely nothing, and they would be slaves or serfs.

Back to you, liberty

Britt
Debate Round No. 1
liberty

Con

liberty forfeited this round.
brittwaller

Pro

My argument stands. 100 characters 100 characters 1000ldfjljdfslkjdflkjsdfljklkjlkjlkjlkjlkhjlkjljklkjll
Debate Round No. 2
liberty

Con

I am very sorry Britt but I was out of town (I had the same problem with another debate). I hope me being late to post my argument does not spoil the debate.

I suggest that since none of us posted a real Round 2 argument we do not count Round 2 and go on as if the debate had only 2 Rounds and continue our debate that promises to be a great one!

Message to voters: If my opponent accepts this suggestion Round 2 should not be taken into consideration when voting.

I will post my next arguments regardless of your choice.
__________________________________________________________________________________

Fist of all I would like to say that after careful consideration, I have decided that limiting the debate to reality would be disastrous for my debate and because I am aware that minimum wage is indeed necessary in some countries, I am forced to regretfully deny my opponent's request because I agree with him and find it difficult as a rookie to play the devil's advocate.

I negate: there should not be a minimum wage

"I am not familiar with any cases of a minimum-wage labourer being either fired or not hired because the current rate of minimum wage was raised"

- You may not ,but it does happen and its very simple: Imagine yourself as a restaurant owner and you need 10 waiters and have , you may hire 10 teenage waiters for 3.0$ an hour, but if the law forces you to pay 6.0$ an hour you are forced to hire only 5 waiters, thus 5 jobs are immediately lost and 5 teenagers don't have a job!

Don't forget that the minimum wage applies only to those who are lucky and skilled enough to get a job, while the less qualified stay unemployed

"I infer that most employers, according to you, would start labourers below this mark, as it is the cost that is the issue of primacy here. Certainly, they could hire more workers... that work for less than it takes to live, the purpose of working. Unemployment would be at an all-time low, but poverty would be at an all-time high. Interesting..."

"We tyrants, tycoons, captains of industry, CEO's, presidents, moguls, barons, dukes, princes, and other excellent and successful people should give the little people SOMETHING - at least enough so that we won't go to the guillotine. Understand that we do not OWE them anything, but it is in our own self-interest to give them enough bread and pocket change to distract them from their unimportant and, for the most part, useless (their only true use is to generate profit for us) lives."

"Even if the minimum wage were set at $0.005 (two zeros on purpose), it MUST exist. Otherwise, employers could pay workers absolutely nothing, and they would be slaves or serfs."

"By the time that lower prices "eventually" came into sight, the gap between rich and poor would be a true chasm, and half of the new workers that were hired would be either homeless because they can't afford even the cheapest of rent or dead from starvation because they can't afford food. Civil strife would erupt, etc."

- All these arguments are similar so I would like to discuss them as if they were one.

My opponent in these arguments has forgot to consider one basic fact: The power of the working class in the market and the world, workers only offer their labour if they want to, either us "dukes", as you say, like it or not. Workers are not hired against their own will! For example if the minimum wage is reduced to 0$ that doesn't mean that an employer can pay whatever he wants. For example if an employer offered 0.5% an hour for a waiter would anyone want the job ,no matter how desperate they were? Obviously not. Consequently workers in a market such as the one in the US can not be exploited because they have a will of their own.
In one of the above arguments my opponent has stated that:"Unemployment would be at an all-time low, but poverty would be at an all-time high." Above I have proved that poverty would not be high because of the power to chose your place of employment. So Unemployment would be at an all-time low, period.

"Certainly, many minimum-wagers are students or other young people, but certainly many are not."

- False. Numbers show that 95% of people who work for minimum wage are workers in training, teenagers, students and part time workers and many of the remaining 5% don't intend to stay there. This category of workers are people who want to gain experience, some extra money and learn the values of work while doing so. They are willing to work for much less than the minimum wage and because of the minimum wage laws, many of them cannot find jobs. So minimum wage may help few people trying to support a family (5% of the people who work for minimum wage), but it will hurt those who have 95% of minimum wage and an extra 5.5% of the population of the USA, the unemployed adults. Simply, there will be less low skilled jobs for those who actually need them.

"Inflation outpaces the rise in minimum wage by football fields at a time"

Wrong. Inflation in the US is low because we have one the most competitive markets in the world and even if it was high, thousands of jobs would still be lost, as I explained above.

"Minimum wage exists in its common form as a way of protection for workers - especially the least qualified. It is in place as a shield from exploitation by employers"

Sure that is its intention but its results are that the many lower qualified workers end up unemployed.

The remainder of my opponent's arguments have already been addressed

Why There should not be a minimum wage:

1.) The minimum wage hurts small companies. Every time the cost of hiring increases, small businesses have more expenses, given one or two bad months (that are almost inevitable in business) and these businesses will fail to produce enough funds to pay their expenses, thus go under.

2.) Without the minimum wage, many businesses would be more efficient. For example if a restaurant can hire waiters for 3$ an hour it can hire 20 students who are desperate for a job, but if it is forced to pay 6$ an hour it can only hire 10 waiters. Would the costumer get his/her order taken faster in the first or the second situation?

3.)The minimum wage costs the economy thousands of jobs. This is explained in more detail above.

4.) Minimum wage causes many businesses to use machines are exploited and many workers lose their jobs to machines. Imagine that you are a manufacturer that is suddenly forced to pay 7$ instead of 4.5$ an hour for each worker in your factory would you believe that replacing the workers with machines was more urgent and worth the investment more or less than before?

5.)As I already explained, many young workers lose their potential jobs and the experience of work.

6.)The minimum wage limits our choices. We can say no on our own, we do not need the government to tell us what we can do and where we can work and limit our choices as employers or workers, we are free people!

7.) A free market has the power to adjust itself. For example if employer X offers an unacceptable wage for a job, no one will will be interested, so he will have to raise the wage in order to hire someone to do the job, thus a minimum wage is not necessary, it just limits people and businesses.

Taking all the above into consideration we realize that minimum wage is not needed in a competitive market like the one in the US. This is because workers have a voice of there own and don't need others to say no for them. A competitive and free market has the power to adjust itself without the help of the government.

Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen,

back to you, britt

Alex ("liberty")
brittwaller

Pro

brittwaller forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by liberty 8 years ago
liberty
Britt,
Ask youself one question. Are there jobs that you can do for free? Like working one hour a week as a playboy photographer, or any fun job that would look great on a resume etc? If you can answear this question than you will understand that your argument is wrong.
Posted by liberty 8 years ago
liberty
I meant can't find typographical error sry :(
Posted by CiRrO 8 years ago
CiRrO
Oh cool. ^^ Cya around. I can't wait till the group extensions is added.
Posted by liberty 8 years ago
liberty
Yes of course I would love to join the group!
Well I can find many people to agree with me either! oh well I found couple on this site! :-D
Posted by CiRrO 8 years ago
CiRrO
LOL, yay, another strong conservative. Would u want to join my Conservative Group (when the feature is available)? Interesting, I also came upon this site by accident. I was looking to see if I could find a site with possible topics for next years debating season. Also, I was curious why you debated against the minimum wage. I don't know many people who agree with me on that. ^^
Posted by liberty 8 years ago
liberty
Thanks for votting for me CRro. In fact I am a conservative, I support New Democracy in Greece (conservatives) and the Republican party in the US, I am half American and Half Greek and my entire family are conservatives (my mother belongs to the New Democracy and almost ran for parliment in the 2007 elections) also my grandfather was in the Navy with John Macain and supports him. To be completely honest I hadn't undurstood the site and the way it worked (I came across it by mistake), so I perposely made myself as liberal as possible. Now, I know the site and I put my real beliefs in my profile. I believe in capitalism and a free market
And hey! this debate was about minimum wage, how can I possibly be liberal if I am debating against it ???
Posted by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
Oops. In my syllogism below, it should say "W>0," not the other way around. Mea culpa.
Posted by CiRrO 8 years ago
CiRrO
extremely** Srry typo. Uh, character length, length.
Posted by CiRrO 8 years ago
CiRrO
Wait, Liberty. Your whole issue profile changed from being extremal left (Liberal) to now right (Conservative). Why the sudden change? I'm happy about it though. Go conservatism!!
Posted by CiRrO 8 years ago
CiRrO
Ok, Ive voted Con. I believe he did very well at refuting Pro's points. Good job both of you. ^^
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