The Instigator
MrWright
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Pitbull15
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Salvation from Sin and the Essentiality of Water Baptism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/18/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 674 times Debate No: 46191
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

MrWright

Pro

The New Testament teaches that water baptism is necessary to the salvation of the soul. And without which no on e can be saved from their sins or enter into Heaven.
Jesus said; "He that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED. He that believeth NOT shall be condemned." - Mk. 16:16 Jesus affirmed that in order to be saved, one MUST both believe AND be baptized.
Jesus also commanded His apostles to "make disciples of every nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" - Matt. 28:19. Jesus affirmed that disciples (i.e. Christians, followers of Jesus Christ) were to be made by baptizing those who have heard and believed the gospel message.
2 Tim. 2:10 & 3:15 clearly state that salvation from sin exists only "IN CHRIST". And, the one and ONLY means of entering Jesus Christ is through the means of water baptism; "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal. 3:28, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? " - Rom. 6:3
Unless one's sins are forgiven and "washed away", he/she cannot be saved and therefore, cannot enter Heaven - Jn. 8:21. The apostle Peter, made abundantly clear that it is through being baptized that one's sins are forgiven; " Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38, and Ananias instructed Saul of Tarsus to "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" - Acts 22:16.
Therefore, the New Testament teaches unequivocally, that in order to be saved from sin and enter Heaven eternally. one MUST be baptized in water.
Pitbull15

Con

"The New Testament teaches that water baptism is necessary to the salvation of the soul. And without which no one can be saved from their sins or enter into Heaven.
Jesus said; "He that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED. He that believeth NOT shall be condemned." - Mk. 16:16 Jesus affirmed that in order to be saved, one MUST both believe AND be baptized."

It also says that he who doesn"t believe is not saved. It didn"t mention anything about baptism in that part, so it wouldn"t necessarily imply that baptism is needed. What translation do you have? I"m using KJV.

"Jesus also commanded His apostles to "make disciples of every nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" - Matt. 28:19. Jesus affirmed that disciples (i.e. Christians, followers of Jesus Christ) were to be made by baptizing those who have heard and believed the gospel message."

When one is baptized, it"s meant to be a public profession of faith, not as a means of salvation. While it"s certainly an important step in obedience to God, it wouldn"t be necessary for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our "account" by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation. Anything other than faith alone would be a works-based salvation. Ephesians 2: 8-9 says that you"re saved through faith in Christ alone. If you are a believer, the rest including works and baptism will come naturally.
Debate Round No. 1
MrWright

Pro

I was under the impression that the standard rules of debate would be followed here. That is, the one in the affirmative is followed by a denial of the affirmative proposition and the premises supporting that argument. However, I see this is turning out to be the other way around here.
Nevertheless, I"ll briefly dismantle my opponent"s arguments and proceed on with my next argument.
In Mk. 16:16, Jesus did NOT say "He that believeth and is SAVED shall be baptized", as my opponent alleges. Jesus, in this statement employed two aorist tense participles "believeth and is baptized"; the action of which MUST be completed BEFORE the action of the main verb of the sentence, in this case is "shall be saved". Therefore, the phraseology used by the Lord in the passage necessitates that BOTH faith and baptism precede the gift of salvation.
Pitbull15 has sadly involved himself in a severe logical contradiction in his argument. He said that "Jesus' death alone paid for our sins". Then, he said "Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our account, by faith alone", citing Eph. 2:8-9 which mentions both grace AND faith. And, finally he said "Anything other than faith alone would be a works-based salvation." So, he holds that Jesus" payment alone was necessary, then faith alone, along with grace, but anything other than faith constitutes "works" of merit.
First of all, no passage in the Bible teaches or even suggests that only believing in Jesus in necessary to receiving salvation from sin. Jesus said CLEARLY in Lk. 13:3 that one must "repent" in order to be saved from perishing. In Rom. 10:9-10, the inspired apostles wrote explicitly that one must both believe and confess faith Jesus Christ. And, Peter made it abundantly clear that in order to be forgiven of and saved from sin, one must both "Repent and be baptized" " Acts 2:38
Now if, as my opponent says, faith ONLY is necessary to receive salvation from sins, the fallen angel (i.e. demons) who "also believe, and tremble" " Jms. 2:19 would be saved today as well. But, the Bible tells us that they are, in fact "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" " Jude 6. In fact, Jms. 2:24 is one and ONLY place in scripture where the phrase "faith only" appears; and it says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only." This passage teaches us that both an inward faith (i.e. believing, assent) and works of obedience are required for one"s salvation rather than a mere mental assent to the gospel. This very passage says that "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, WHEN (NOT BEFORE) he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" " Jms. 2:21.
Furthermore, my opponent believes that one can be saved while both being "in sin" and "outside of Christ".
1.) The New Testament teaches that one"s sin are forgiven and "washed away" when he/she is baptized. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for ("eis" = unto/into, see Matt. 26:28) the forgiveness of sins" " Acts 2:38, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord" " Acts 22:16. There is no other scriptural way for an alien sinner to have his/her sins forgiven or "washed away", except through baptism.
2.) The New Testament teaches that the one and ONLY way INTO Jesus Christ is through baptism. "Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED INTO Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" " Rom. 6:3, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" " Gal. 3:27. These two passages speak regarding putting off one" sins and putting on Christ, which is done so through being baptized. Therefore, without and prior to baptism one is STILL clothed with sin and apart from Jesus Christ.
My opponent cannot scripturally answer these arguments. If he can, I sure would like him to try.
Pitbull15

Con

I didn't say that faith ALONE would save a person. If he doesn't do good works, his faith is not strong. I know it may sound like a No True Scotsman fallacy, but a person who had accepted Christ as his savior would have already repented and done good works to accompany his salvation. He would naturally be compelled to repent, do good works, and be baptized. So basically, it's a package deal; you can't have one without all the others.

"1.) The New Testament teaches that one"s sin are forgiven and "washed away" when he/she is baptized. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for ("eis" = unto/into, see Matt. 26:28) the forgiveness of sins" " Acts 2:38, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord" " Acts 22:16. There is no other scriptural way for an alien sinner to have his/her sins forgiven or "washed away", except through baptism.

2.) The New Testament teaches that the one and ONLY way INTO Jesus Christ is through baptism. "Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED INTO Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" " Rom. 6:3, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" " Gal. 3:27. These two passages speak regarding putting off one" sins and putting on Christ, which is done so through being baptized. Therefore, without and prior to baptism one is STILL clothed with sin and apart from Jesus Christ."

Baptism may wash away all the sins already committed, but what about the sins the man has yet to commit? Jesus Christ died for all the sins of the world past, present and future. When one is baptized, it is a symbol of your sins being washed away by Christ and a public profession of faith, as well as integration into a church. Baptism doesn't save from sins but from a troubled conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism, however, cannot be the big requirement for salvation. To think of it that way is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Debate Round No. 2
MrWright

Pro

My opponent"s argument is barely short of non-existent. Actually most of what seems to be his case consists of my own premises.
But, here is what "Pitbull15" is saying. 1.) Once one becomes a Christian, he/she will automatically, or in his words "naturally" do good works, such as repent and be baptized, and 2.) If baptism washes away all one"s past sins, then that would necessarily leave his/her sins yet committed unforgiven.
What my opponent fails to propose prove in 1.) of his comments is HOW THE BIBLE SAYS ONE BECOMES A CHRISTIAN. He forfeited the so-called "faith ONLY" position, which he espoused in his previous comments, which he denies saying. But, below is a quotation from the closing remarks of his previous comments:
"Anything other than faith alone would be a works-based salvation. Ephesians 2: 8-9 says that you"re saved through faith in Christ alone."
Thus, he has neither refuted my affirmative arguments, nor offered any Biblical alternative means of obtaining salvation from sin in any way.
As for my opponent"s 2.) comments, what he misses is the GLARING fact that baptism is the means which the Bible teaches that brings one into relationship, "fellowship" and "sonship" with God. Jesus explained to Nicodemus that one "MUST" be born into the Kingdom of God " Jn. 3:3-5. Birth constitutes familial relationship. And, this birth, as the one"s physical birth entails two factors "of the water and of the Spirit".
"Eis ton Onoma" = "baptizing them into the name of": That phrase appears in the original Greek New Testament in Matt. 28:19, in what we call Jesus" "Great Commission". It describes just HOW disciples of Jesus Christ (synonymous with those "in the faith" " Acts 11:26, 13:48-52 and 14:22) are made according to the command of the RISEN Savior. The phrase "into the name of" means "into the possession of", "into subjection to" and "into the Lordship of"; as in ancient times those traded or sold "into slavery" were done so "into the possession of" a certain owner. So, Christ"s apostles, being instructed to "make disciples" did so by baptizing those who heard and believed the message of Christ, thus bring them into the "possession of", "under the authority of" and "into relationship with" Almighty God. This is EXACTLY why the inspired apostles wrote; "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." " Gal. 3:29, having been "baptized INTO Christ" and thereby having "PUT ON Christ" " vs. 27.
Therefore, having had his/her sins forgiven and "washed away" through baptism, as I vehemently argued in my previous comments, one THEN becomes a child of God and citizen of the Kingdom of Almighty God, and therefore, possesses the right and privilege to pray to God through Jesus Christ for forgiveness of future committed sins, having repented with "godly sorrow" " 2 Cor. 7:10. The apostle John wrote that children of God have the privilege of the continual washing, cleansing of Christ blood, when and if they are acknowledged and confessed " 1 Jn. 1:7-2:2. The apostle Peter urged Simon, who had already believed and been baptized and subsequently sinned, to "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." " Acts 8:22
This is God"s Heavenly provision for the future uncommitted sins of the children of God. If we repent and confess our sins, HE WILL (future), not "HAS" (past) forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Finally, the apostle Peter argued PLAINLY that as Noah and his family "were saved BY water", "BAPTISM also NOW SAVES US" " 1 Pet. 3:21.
Pitbull15

Con

"My opponent"s argument is barely short of non-existent. Actually most of what seems to be his case consists of my own premises."

We're both Christians, aren't we? Of course our premises are going to be similar

"But, here is what "Pitbull15" is saying. 1.) Once one becomes a Christian, he/she will automatically, or in his words "naturally" do good works, such as repent and be baptized, and 2.) If baptism washes away all one"s past sins, then that would necessarily leave his/her sins yet committed unforgiven.
What my opponent fails to propose prove in 1.) of his comments is HOW THE BIBLE SAYS ONE BECOMES A CHRISTIAN. He forfeited the so-called "faith ONLY" position, which he espoused in his previous comments, which he denies saying. But, below is a quotation from the closing remarks of his previous comments:
"Anything other than faith alone would be a works-based salvation. Ephesians 2: 8-9 says that you"re saved through faith in Christ alone."
Thus, he has neither refuted my affirmative arguments, nor offered any Biblical alternative means of obtaining salvation from sin in any way."

Here's my proposition on how to become a Christian:
What I'm trying to get across to you is that "faith" is a package deal. Naturally doing good works and getting baptized, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Someone with true faith would be compelled to do these things. John 14:6 says
"Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." Acts 3:19 says: "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." And how could I forget Romans 10:9-10? "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

But, I may have had your definitions confused before I accepted your challenge. Are you saying baptism alone is necessary for salvation, or are you arguing it's a necessary step, but not the way to salvation? Because I believe it's necessary, too; but not the true way to salvation in Christ. I apologize, but I want to get a clear definition.
Debate Round No. 3
MrWright

Pro


Here are 4(FOUR) quotes from my opponent CLEARLY asserting that baptism is not required or “necessary” for the salvation of one’s soul.


“Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism, however, cannot be the big requirement for salvation.”


“It also says that he who doesn"t believe is not saved. It didn"t mention anything about baptism in that part, so it wouldn"t necessarily imply that baptism is needed.”


“When one is baptized, it"s meant to be a public profession of faith, not as a means of salvation. While it"s certainly an important step in obedience to God, it wouldn"t be necessary for salvation.”


“Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation. Anything other than faith alone would be a works-based salvation.”


Now, he says; “I believe it's necessary, too”. The fact is that either my opponent has changed his position and thereby given up his argument and denial of the proposition in question, or he really doesn’t know what he believes about the essentiality of water baptism and requires further study on the subject. But, there's no excuse for not understanding the proposition which you decided to refute or not understanding my position.


Nevertheless, the proposition is clear, “Pitbull15”. My opening argument has been posted here for you to go back and read and examine for clarity, contradiction and inconsistencies. I can’t help you now, if you do not understand the proposition under consideration.


I gathered that you accepted the challenge to debate this subject with the understanding of the proposition and of your opponent’s position. Otherwise, you are certainly free and even encouraged to question your opponent’s position, arguments and premises.


Nevertheless, NOWHERE in scripture does it state or even suggest that “baptism is an outward sign, a public profession or symbol of” anything. This is a dreamed up idea of opponents of baptism and is NOT Biblical at all.


Baptism is obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. “And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.” – Acts 6:7, “And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.” – Acts 18:8, “But they have not all obeyed the gospel” – Rom. 10:16.


Read the warnings about failure to “obey the gospel”. “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” – 2 Thess. 1:8-9


“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of God?” – 1 Pet. 4:17


Read the reward of “Obedience to the gospel”. “And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them THAT OBEY HIM” – Heb. 5:9, “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED FROM THE HEART that form of doctrine which was delivered you. BEING THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” – Rom. 6:17-18


Therefore, it is indeed the will of God that everyone hear the gospel, believe it, confess His Son and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Remember, the Lord said; “Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven.” – Matt. 7:21


Pitbull15

Con

Then I guess this debate's been a waste of time.

What I've been saying all along is that yes, it's God's will, but it seemed like you were saying that baptism alone could save someone since you said baptism alone was the way to Christ. Like I said before, our premises are going to be similar since we're both Christians and share the same beliefs. I apologize for wasting our time.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Pitbull15 3 years ago
Pitbull15
I live by myself so I never really logged out when I was done. Now I'll remember to do that. You'll have my argument sometime tomorrow.
Posted by MrWright 3 years ago
MrWright
Oh, okay. I wasn't sure you intended to actually engage in the debate. I see you're "online" quite and engaged in other discussions. So, I thought you had changed your mind or something.
Posted by Pitbull15 3 years ago
Pitbull15
I just need time to finish typing up my argument on Microsoft Word. Trust me, you'll have it before the deadline. I have a busy life, you know.
Posted by MrWright 3 years ago
MrWright
My supposed opponent CLEARLY has no intention of debating this proposition. So, I can only conclude that accepting my challenge to debate this proposition is a mere ploy to quell and prevent the discussion of this topic.
However, if there be any who seriously want to debate this proposition, please bring it my attention. I have no interest in juvenile antics.
No votes have been placed for this debate.