The Instigator
libertarian
Pro (for)
Winning
19 Points
The Contender
jadoreyouux
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points

Same sex couples should be federally allowed to adopt.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/13/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,447 times Debate No: 4406
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (7)

 

libertarian

Pro

Amendment 14, Section 1 has a clause in it called the Equal Protection Clause. It states, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

This proves that same-sex couple adoption should be legal.

The case Loving vs. Virginia is the case that overturned the ban on interracial marriage. The Supreme Court ruled that Virginia was being discriminatory. The Court unanimously voted against Virginia, against discrimination, and in favor of the Loving (no pun intended) family who was allowed to marry. This proves that adoption rights go out to all couples, despite discrimination.

Australia, the Netherlands, Canada, the United Kingdom, Sweden, Spain, Belgium and Iceland allow same sex couples to adopt.

The American Psychology Association says that same sex adoption does not negatively effect an adopted child.

Every child deserves a loving home. To deny this to a child is more than immoral or prejudice. It is inhumane.
jadoreyouux

Con

I would like to attack your last point first.
You say-The American Psychology Association says that same sex adoption does not negatively effect an adopted child.
-- but this is not true.
Children of gay men and lesbians are vulnerable to teasing and harassment, particularly as they approach adolescence. The Courts are concerned that children raised by gay and lesbian parents may have difficulties with their personal and psychological development, self-esteem, and social and peer relationships. Which is obvious there.

you then say -Every child deserves a loving home. To deny this to a child is more than immoral or prejudice. It is inhumane.
-- but many people that are not homosexual are searching for children and being denied everyday that can provide a loving home. They have to venture our of the united states to get their children. We should allow heterosexual first and many heterosexual couples are denied which justifies homosexuals being denied as well.

Your first point is about the the 14th amendment, and your rights. which you say the law justifies allowing the adoption of children.

--But legality isnt the true debate. Legality should be viewed after the life of the child. Children need a male and a female role model in a relationship, and only a straight marriage can provide this.
Children raised by same-sex couples demonstrate a significant increase in low self-esteem, stress, confusion regarding sexual identity, increased mental illness, drug use, promiscuity, sexually transmitted infections and homosexual behavior. Children will be ridiculed and tormented for reasons they cant control. Yes striaght people can have these problems as well, but there is an overall obvious increase in children of same sex parents. Coincidence ... i think not.

**To turn your argument by allowing gays to adopt your actually limiting the life of the children by creating such sitautions listed above.

--- there really is not a 14th amendment. There were 37 States in the Union at the time of ratifying the amendment, so ratification by at least 28 was necessary to make the amendment an integral part of the Constitution. Actually, only 21 States legally ratified it. So it failed of ratification. No State, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate. So the state can waive this right of equal suffrage. This proves US federal government has no right enforcing the 14th amendment in the case of gay marriages.
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Your second point is this case that rules in favor of non discrimination
which proves that adoption rights go out to all couples, despite discrimination.
= when not allowing a gay couple to adopt it is not discrimination. Its preventing discrimintaion in the life of the child.
- but i would also like to point out that adoption rights shouldnt go out to everyone because of this one case. That would be like saying since it is okay for one person to own a gun everyone should. To link that refrence abusive parents should not be allowed to adopt. In a way gay couple parents are indirectly verbally abusive by increasing the likelyhood of the childreen being tormented. which has the ability to leading to low self-esteem, stress, confusion regarding sexual identity, increased mental illness, drug use, promiscuity, sexually transmitted infections and homosexual behavior.

---Just because Australia, the Netherlands, Canada, the United Kingdom, Sweden, Spain, Belgium and Iceland allow same sex couples to adopt. are doing this doesnt mean we should too. Its like the old saying if someone was jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge would you do it too?.
We shouldnt allow children to become guinie pigs, in the quest for gay children to become parents.
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Debate Round No. 1
libertarian

Pro

>>> Children of gay men and lesbians are vulnerable to teasing and harassment, particularly as they approach adolescence.

+++ The other kids do not have to know the relationship this child's parents have.

+++ This does not have significant damage and has not been reported often. Most people are accepting, like you, as the comments display.

+++ American Academy of Pediatrics states that over 1 millions have adopted children.

+++ This is a problem but a small one in comparison. Most children would rather have a loving, caring home, than an overcrowded, unloving home. They are willing to accept a little ridicule over lack of love and parents.

>>> We should allow heterosexual first and many heterosexual couples are denied which justifies homosexuals being denied as well.

+++ This is a prejudice statement. The 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution states that no citizen should be denied equal protection under the law. This is discrimination and is not equal protection.

+++ Heterosexual couples are denied for a particular reason. There is no shortage of children in need of adoption. If a couple is denied adoption, it should be for a reason other than their sexual orientation. In 2001, Dr. Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz published a comprehensive review of the social science research on lesbian and gay parenting in the American Sociological Review. The study showed that gays were just as good parents as straight people. (www.soulforce.org)

>>> Legality is not primary.

+++ Legality is primary. The United States has to follow the Constitution. If we stop following the Constitution, it will lead to us loosing our freedom of speech, religion, right to deny quartering soldiers. We need to follow our Constitution.

+++ For your next, stereotypical rant, I have these statements from scientific organizations:American Academy of Pediatrics
"Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual. When two adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition."43

American Psychiatric Association
"Numerous studies over the last three decades consistently demonstrate that children raised by gay or lesbian parents exhibit the same level of emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as children raised by heterosexual parents. This research indicates that optimal development for children is based, not on the sexual orientation of the parents, but on stable attachments to committed and nurturing adults. The research also shows that children who have two parents, regardless of the parents' sexual orientations, do better than children with only one parent."44

American Psychological Association
"Research has indicated no significant differences between the capabilities of lesbian, gay, and bisexual parents when compared to heterosexual parents. However, lesbian, gay, and bisexual parents face challenges not encountered by most heterosexual parents because of the stigma associated with homosexuality and bisexuality. Prejudice has led to institutional discrimination by the legal, educational, and social-welfare systems. In a number of instances, lesbian, gay,and bisexual parents have lost custody of their children, have been restricted in visiting their children, have been prohibited from living with their domestic partners, and/or have been prevented from adopting or being foster parents, on the basis of their sexual orientation."45

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
"There is no evidence to suggest or support that parents with a gay, lesbian, or bisexual orientation are per se different from or deficient in parenting skills, child-centered concerns, and parent-child attachments when compared to parents with a heterosexual orientation. It has long been established that a homosexual orientation is not related to psychopathology, and there is no basis on which to assume that a parental homosexual orientation will increase likelihood of or induce a homosexual orientation in the child. Outcome studies of children raised by parents with a homosexual or bisexual orientation, when compared to heterosexual parents, show no greater degree of instability in the parental relationship or developmental dysfunction in the children."46

American Anthropological Association
"The results of more than a century of anthropological research on households, kinship relationships, and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution. Rather, anthropological research supports the conclusion that a vast array of family types, including families built upon same-sex partnerships, can contribute to stable and humane societies ... The Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association strongly opposes a constitutional amendment limiting marriage to heterosexual couples.

>>> Children raised by same-sex couples demonstrate a significant increase in low self-esteem, stress...

+++ This is unproven and untrue.

>>> confusion regarding sexual identity

+++ This is completely untrue. If you have a nerdy dad, you will not become nerdy. This rub off argument is completely untrue.

>>> increased mental illness

+++ Gay parenting does not make you retarded.

>>> drug use, promiscuity

+++ These are untrue stereotypes.

>>> sexually transmitted infections and homosexual behavior

+++ Having gay parents will not make you gay.

>>> The 14th Amendment was initially only ratified by 28 states.

+++ Yes. But by 2003, all states had ratified the amendment.

+++ To void the 14th Amendment is to say that interracial marriage is overturned, abortion bans are overturned, and so are African-American voting rights. But the fact is, now, every state has ratified the amendment.
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>>> not allowing a gay couple to adopt it is not discrimination. Its preventing discrimintaion in the life of the child.

+++ It certainly is discrimination. Explain how it is not discrimination.

>>> The couple should be discriminated against.

+++ You gave a lot of stereotypical reasons. Couples should be denied adoption rights for legitimate reasons, not for sexual orientation, which the scientific community says does not harm a child.

My opponent has yet to refute constitutionality. He said all states did not raify the 14th amendment, which was good research and a little known fact, but untrue. Because the amendment was lately ratified by 2003 in every state of the union. He also tried to say constitutionality does not matter. But this is obviously untrue. Our government has to respect our Constitution.

The fact is that kids are often abused and molested and always have no loving parents when in orphanages (or whatever euphemism they're using now). Most children would rather keep their parents a secret and have loving parents than live in a poor, sad, overcrowded, loveless household. Some children will even tell the truth. But most children would prefer love and attention over neglect and a lack of family.
jadoreyouux

Con

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>>> Legality in FEDERAL terms not primary.*
==1st, 14 amendment- it would have never passed had reps from those states been there in 1868 a different amendment might have come along, but who is to say what never happened.the ratifications of the former confederate states were COERCED!-- many former Confederate states had their readmittance to the Union conditioned on ratifying the Fourteenth Amendment
how can force of arms deny another state a right to have representation in the Congress until it has ratified an amendment which its people oppose?

therefore it is up to the STATE to determine, not federal governent. it is not a federal issue, because states like FL. and Georgia and many of the confederate states were forced. they should make decisions that sorta link to the 14th amendment & do what they want because 1) it never should have passed and 2) they were coerced into passing the amendment.
--- hypothetically if you were forced to go sign a petition banning wearing the color purple & you really didnt want to, you should still be allowed to do wear it, since you were coerced into it.
--- people were coerced into slavery .. does coercion make slavery okay?.. NO
--- states were coerced into passing the amendment does coercion make the amendment? .. NO
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+++ The other kids do not have to know the relationship this child's parents have.
- yea, but if they find out, in school all hell would break loose. I am in highschool, i get to see first hand discrimination directly at gay people, and at children of gay people. Although America is diverse were still a discriminating country.
yet you are probably going to say im hypocritical because i say i dont think gays should be allowed to adopt. yet this is NOT discrimination. Discrimination would be not allowing gays to date, because it is not involving another life, that has no say in what is going on it is not discriminatory. it in turn is protection from discrimination. and protection of rights of that baby.
-- Children absorb a lot, their sense of gender roles are impressionable and they should have both an adult male and female in their home to guide them.
-- children have a right to obtain balance in thier lives.they didnt ask to be here,so parents need to give them a well rounded and stable life so they have a chance to grow up healthy and normal,a gay couple would be a lopsideded family unit for a child.i am not anti gay but a child forms his life patterns and most preferences in early child hood. he or she should have choices and should have the oppertunity to be straight if they so choose.having both parents of the same sex will seem normal to them and it would be a foreign concept to them to have parents of different sexes.so chances are he or she will grow up sexually confused..
---To deny a child a true mother or a true father is to deny that child a true home. a true chance to grow and live a normal (on the standards of the us and specific states) lives.
>>>Children more likely experiment homosexual behavior.
"In a study published in an issue of Developmental Psychology, London researchers Susan Golombok and Fiona Tasker found that children raised by a homosexual parent were much more likely to experiment with homosexual behavior themselves." other Studies indicate that children in homosexual households are four times more likely to identify as homosexual or get involved in homosexual behavior than children raised in single-parent households.
--A mountain of social science, the world's major religions, common sense and observation tell us that children have the best chance to thrive in married, mother-and-father-based families. Why not give kids the best possible chance at a normal, healthy family life instead of using them to make a cultural statement?"
+++ i never said i was accepting. "these arent my personal views" does not mean im support advocating gays to adopt. i dont think debaters opinions matter in a debate. that would lead to a never ending 4 year old debate of - nick jr is better, no disney is better, no nick jr. its the evidence presented, the studies, and the arguments made.
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+++Most children would rather have a loving, caring home, than an overcrowded, unloving home. They are willing to accept a little ridicule over lack of love and parents.
-----once again To deny a child a true mother or a true father is to deny that child a true home. a true chance to grow and live a normal (on the standards of the us and specific states) lives. cross apply everything i said about children learning everything when they are young.
-----religions started the standards of the US. why do you think places close early on sundays? or the post office is closed?
religious people would look down upon a gay couple adopting a child. which could prevent the child from practicing their own beliefs.
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>>>gays are just as good parents
--- this is not true, and im not sterotyping, statistics show gay people are less likely to stay in relationships. so the child involved might not only not be exposed to a "normal" life, but be in a situation where one of the parents leave. which can create even worse problems!
--- if you dont take that.. okay so what? its not the quality of the parents. its the rights of the child!
== I would just like to point out that all your info is from AAP yet, but then the AAP report revealed how little research has been done. Much of the research asks the parents, teachers and children how they feel about one another. Much of it is focuses on lesbian couples. The conclusions don't seem based on large enough samples to be scientific. The conclusions sound like wishes.
As the American Academy of Pediatrics eventually put it:
Research exploring the diversity of parental relationships among gay and lesbian parents is just beginning.
from just taking science regents, research based on a large percentage of people, a large variety of people, increases the truth behind statistics, yet due to the fact that AAP doesnt do much research your information is all INVALID! ( you can say my research is invalid as well, and we can DROP this part of legality, and go on the other parts & rights of the child if you would like?)
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>>>it is not discrimination.
it would discrimination to not allow a gay couple to date. it only involves the life of the 2 people involved.
yet when you add a kid in the mix you are looking at a totally different situation. because you have to look to the rights of the child, and the problems it may lead to, and the UNDETERMINED beliefs of the child
the child never was asked to be put on the earth, since it is here it should be exposed to a natural, "normal" lifestyle.
who is one to say that when the all adopted children of gay parents grow up, they like the fact their parents are gay. if you take that then you have to take the fact that some dont like the fact. you have to protect the rights/beliefs/life of the child.
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The fact is that kids are often abused and molested and always have no loving parents when in orphanages (or whatever euphemism they're using now). Most children would rather keep their parents a secret and have loving parents than live in a poor, sad, overcrowded, loveless household. Some children will even tell the truth. But most children would prefer love and attention over neglect and a lack of family.
---It's a myth that hard-to-place children would have
Debate Round No. 2
libertarian

Pro

Let's look at the facts: 1. Science (American Psychology Association, American Psychiatric Assiciation, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Anthropological Association, American Academy of Pediatrics) proves that gays make just as good parents as straight people.
2. Common sense will tell you that living your whole life in an orphanage is no fun. The United States Department of Health and Human Services will tell you that orphans are often abused, neglected and molested.
3. The 14th Amendment tells you that discrimination is illegal. It is the basis for interracial marriage and women's voting rights. My opponent's only rebuttals are that it was not ratified correctly, which was disproved. All 50 states ratified it by 2003. He also says that legality is secondary. But this is false. The Constitution is put before all government procedures. And science proves that the child is not even hurt.
There is no reason to vote CON. There is every reason from discrimination to constitutionality to child well-being to vote PRO!

I. 14th Amendment
>>> Confederates were forced to ratify amendment
+++ They were not forced. As a condition of loosing the war they could only join the Union if they ratified the amendment. It was a condition of war. They agreed to it. It was the price they paid for the Civil War. Every war has conditions that have to be followed after loss.
+++ The amendment has now been ratified by every state. All 50 states in the Union have ratied the Amendment. YOU CAN'T IGNORE THIS! The Amendment was ratified in Ohio in 2003 as the last state in the Union.(http://www.enquirer.com...)
+++ If the Amendment wouldn't count, women would never have gotten the right to vote and interracial marriage would be illegal.
II. Child Discrimination
>>> The kids will be discriminated against.
+++ Many kids choose to keep it secret and nobody ever finds out.
+++ Not alowing gays to adopt, because their children may be embarrassed is discrimination. It is saying: YOU CAN'T ADOPT, BECAUSE YOU'RE GAY!
III. Children absorb a lot, their sense of gender roles are impressionable
+++ Sexual orientation is wired into your system. You do not become gay by watching other people being gay. You don't become tall, by hanging around tall people.
+++ Science proves otherwise. My quotes from the scientific organizations disagree with you. They say there is no difference in the outcome of a child because its parents are gay.
IV. The child has no chance at being straight with gay parents
+++ This is disproved in many gay adoptions.
+++ Science disagrees with you.
+++ Why is it that with two straight, religious parents some children become gay?
V. This is denying a child a true home if there is no mother or father
+++ This is an insult to single parents everywhere.
+++ If a kid is forced to live in an orphanage, they will most likely prefer a home with parents and love rather than a neglectful home with a supervisor.
VI. Studies indicate that children in homosexual households are four times more likely to identify as homosexual or get involved in homosexual behavior than children raised in single-parent households.
+++ This is a lie. No such study exists. I looked for it. If it does exist, it is from a religious group that is biased like NARTH, Exodus, or Focus on the Family.
+++ If this lie has any truth, SO WHAT. Being gay is not a curse. Although, this study does not exist. It is a lie.
VII. Why not give kids the best possible chance at a normal, healthy family life instead of using them to make a cultural statement?"
+++ I gave a bunch of scientific quotes that disproves this. Gay parents do a good job. Single parents don't do as good a job, sadly. Studies show they are less efficient, but two parents works well.
+++ If the kid is in an orphanage, he should and will take a chance at adoption rather than a life without parents or love in an orphanage.
VIII. statistics show gay people are less likely to stay in relationships.
+++ This is untrue. Show me the statistic. Show me that it is not biased and is scientific.
IX. As the American Academy of Pediatrics eventually put it:
Research exploring the diversity of parental relationships among gay and lesbian parents is just beginning.
+++ Research may be just beginning. But all the research leans to my side. Your side is evidence-less and disproved. All it has to lean on is social stereotypes.
+++ What about the American Psychology Association, American Psychiatric Assiciation, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the
American Anthropological Association?
X. it should be exposed to a natural, "normal" lifestyle.
+++ Two gay parents (which has been peoven to be just as effective as two sraight parents) are better than an orphanage. Period.
XI. who is one to say that when the all adopted children of gay parents grow up, they like the fact their parents are gay.
+++ You don't to choose your parents. You are doing that child a major disservice by forcing that child to live in an orphanage and never experience love. Most likely be molested and abused [US Dept. Health & Human Services]. And have every Christmas and their entire wardrobe be with donated hand-me-downs.
===============================================================================

Let's look at the facts: 1. Science (American Psychology Association, American Psychiatric Assiciation, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Anthropological Association, American Academy of Pediatrics) proves that gays make just as good parents as straight people.
2. Common sense will tell you that living your whole life in an orphanage is no fun. The United States Department of Health and Human Services will tell you that orphans are often abused, neglected and molested.
3. The 14th Amendment tells you that discrimination is illegal. It is the basis for interracial marriage and women's voting rights. My opponent's only rebuttals are that it was not ratified correctly, which was disproved. All 50 states ratified it by 2003. He also says that legality is secondary. But this is false. The Constitution is put before all government procedures. And science proves that the child is not even hurt.
There is no reason to vote CON. There is every reason from discrimination to constitutionality to child well-being to vote PRO! Thank you.
jadoreyouux

Con

jadoreyouux forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Maya9 8 years ago
Maya9
Con arguments are just very poor and illogical.
Posted by jadoreyouux 8 years ago
jadoreyouux
sorry to busy, studying for finals
Posted by jadoreyouux 8 years ago
jadoreyouux
these arent my true views.
so dont call me a prejudice.
just practicing.
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kalyse020908
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