The Instigator
doomswatter
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points
The Contender
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Satan's Rap Sheet vs God's

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
doomswatter
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/11/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,619 times Debate No: 56432
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (113)
Votes (3)

 

doomswatter

Pro

Resolution: According to Biblical events, Satan has committed fewer sins than Jehovah.

Definitions

Biblical Events: Biblically recorded instances of an action or thought. Does not include unsourced attacks on character. For example, "Bill stole an apple from Bob" is a recorded instance, while "Bill is a thief" is an attack on character.

Satan: Jehovah's enemy and mankind's adversary. Also known as "The Devil".

Sin: Offenses against Jehovah's law (Exodus 20:1-17) and things that Jehovah hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).

Jehovah: The Christian god. Also known as "God".

Structure
Round 1: Pro Definitions and Rules/Con Acceptance
Round 2: Arguments and Rebuttals
Round 3: Arguments and Rebuttals
Round 4: Rebuttals and Closing (No new arguments)

Rules

Violation of structure or rules will be punished with an automatic victory for Pro.

For Biblical references, only use the Protestant Bible, as it is the only one I am familiar with. No Apocrypha. I don't care which version of the Protestant Bible is referenced, as long as this does not devolve into a version debate. Therefore, if Con's entire argument hinges on a rare translation in his/her preferred version, Con had better be able to concisely and completely prove that version is the correct one in a private message to me. Otherwise, use versions that agree with the majority. Any version banter during the debate will result in an automatic victory for Pro.

If anyone needs more clarification on the rules, or anything else, please ask in the comments or message me.


I think that covers it. I look forward to an entertaining debate!
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

ok......accepted.......on your terms.
Debate Round No. 1
doomswatter

Pro

Thanks to Con for accepting. I hope this debate will be mentally stimulating for all involved.

(Note: All Bible references are from the King James Version unless otherwise specified. All verses can be easily looked up and translated to other versions at biblegateway.com)

GOD

Foundations

"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." - Malachi 3:6

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." - 1 Peter 1:15-16

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." - Matthew 5:48

"Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." - Psalm 86:11

The Christian view of good and evil is based on the nature of God. The Bible declares that God is perfect: he is the ultimate standard for righteousness, goodness, and truth. The Bible also tells us that God does not change. Of course, such stability is necessary in order for us to know how to be righteous. God must be an unchanging standard in order for us to have a consistent example for our own lives.

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple."
- Psalm 19:7

This understanding of God's character is necessary in order to understand his laws and likes. According to the Bible, his laws and likes are not the arbitrary whims of a tyrant. Instead, they are revelations of a flawless character. He has revealed his character to us through his word, so that we may know him and imitate him.

Now we come to the meat of this debate. Ultimately, how do we know if something is a sin? If it is contrary to the character of God. How do we know the character of God? His word. So, can God sin?

Divine Immunity

I've established that God's character is perfect and unchanging, and necessarily so. It follows that God can not go "out of character", for, if he did so, he would cease to be perfect and unchanging. Therefore, there is no need for "divine immunity", or the idea that God can be infinitely excused because he is God. If God truly is perfect, then all of his actions will align with his revealed character. God will always act predictably within his holy nature. However, if God were to "break character", or do something that contradicts the character he has declared perfect, then he would be, by definition, sinning. As God is omnipotent, he has the ability to do anything, including "break character". So, has God sinned?

God's Hate List

In R1 I referenced the ten commandments as a test for sin, but for my purposes here I believe I really only need the Proverbs passage:

"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." - Proverbs 6:16-19

Since God hates the things listed above, we can be certain that they go against his character and are, therefore, sin. So, if we can find any recorded instances of God doing or promoting one of things he claims to hate, we can safely say that we have found an instance of God going "out of character" and, thereby, sinning. Now, I will list and briefly expound on instances that I believe I have found.

God Breaks Character

A Lying Tongue

1. In 1 Kings 22, the king of Israel, Ahab, asks a group of 400 prophets whether he has God's blessing in going to war. The prophets reply in the affirmative, but the king's friend, Jehoshaphat, has his doubts, so they consult a different prophet, Micaiah. Micaiah eventually gets around to telling them the truth:

"And he said, 'Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the Lord said, "Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?" And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, "I will persuade him." And the Lord said unto him, "Wherewith?" And he said, "I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." And he said, "Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so." Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.'" - 1 Kings 22:19-23 (This same story is also told in 2 Chronicles 18)

We see in this passage that God first provokes the "host of heaven" to trick Ahab into going to war, and then gives his blessing to a spirit that proposes possessing prophets and making them lie, or, in other words, giving them lying tongues. So, God has instigated, promoted, and set into motion something that he supposedly hates. Sin number one.

2. God tells the prophet Ezekiel that he is angry with the people of Israel for their idolatry. He proceeds to tell Ezekiel how he will punish the idolaters, and says:

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." -Ezekiel 14:9

God is so angry, he is willing to deceive prophets so that they speak lies, as we have witnessed him doing before in point 1 above. If provoked, God will apparently go against his own character and mastermind something he hates. Even planning to sin is a sin, as it is in conflict with perfection. Sin number 2.

Hands That Shed Innocent Blood

We know that God has done quite a bit of killing. The key word here, though, is "innocent". Instead of going into the details of all the different reasons God killed people in order to determine if any were innocent, I will stick with victims that we all can agree are innocent: infant children. Infants do not have the ability or capacity to break one of God's laws, nor to do something from his hate list. Yet, there are multiple instances of God killing, threatening to kill, or commanding the killing of infants:

1. God uses a flood to kill every human on earth except Noah and his family. -Genesis 7:21-23

2. God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt.
-Exodus 12:29-30

3. God threatens to kill newborns. -Hosea 9:15-16

4. God orders the killing of "little children". -Ezekiel 9:4-7

5. God threatens to rob people of their children. -Leviticus 26:22

6. God threatens to make a foreign army mercilessly kill young children. -Isaiah 13:13-18

7. God orders the Israelites to slaughter infants. -1 Samuel 15:2-3

8. The Israelites, with God's blessing, kill "all the inhabitants" of a city. -Joshua 8:18-27

9. The Israelites, with God's blessing, kill everyone in the city of Jericho. -Joshua 6:21

We see from these verses that God has killed infants, orchestrated and blessed the killing of infants, and made death threats against infants, when he supposedly hates hands that shed innocent blood. These instances account for sins 3 through 9.

He That Soweth Discord Among Brethren

Proverbs was written before Jesus' time on earth, so "brethren" here is not referring to Christians. God seems to mean that he hates anyone who stirs up trouble among literal brothers, or family relations. However, Jesus said this:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." -Matthew 10:34-36

Whether Jesus was God in the flesh or not, Christians agree that he was God's messenger. Apparently, God sent Jesus to be a sower of discord among brethren, even though he supposedly hates such a person. Sin number 10.

That’s enough on God’s side for now. Lets look at Satan.

SATAN

The Serpent in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-5)

It is a popular belief in Christianity that the serpent in this story was possessed by Satan, and that Satan lied to Eve about the fruit. However, I would like to point out that the Bible never makes the statement that the serpent was indeed Satan, nor inhabited by him. In other places, the Bible calls Satan a serpent and deceiver, but never conclusively says that he was the serpent who spoke with Eve. Therefore, the conclusion that this is an instance of Satan sinning is an assumption without solid, Biblical basis.

Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, let’s say that the serpent was Satan. Obviously, he didn’t lie about the effects of the fruit on Adam and Eve’s knowledge, but did he lie about their inevitable death? Is it not possible that Satan was simply mistaken? The difference between a lie and a mistake is that the former requires an intent to deceive, while the latter only requires ignorance of the truth. In this story, we are not told the serpent’s intentions, nor what the serpent believed to be true. Later on, Eve accuses the snake of “beguiling” her, and God takes her word for it and punishes the snake, but we never hear the serpent speak for himself.

Another interesting point to make is that God’s prediction about Adam and Eve’s death would not have come true had God not taken extra steps to insure that it did. According to Genesis 3:22-24, Adam and Eve could have lived forever had they eaten of the tree of life. Perhaps the serpent knew this, and that is why he scoffed at God’s warning. How was he to know that God would drive Adam and Eve out of the garden and place a guard?

No matter which way you look at it, you can not conclusively say that this is an instance of Satan sinning.

Well, because I’m running out of space, I’ll leave it at this for now. If necessary, I will build more arguments in the next round. I look forward to my opponent’s arguments and rebuttals.

Over to you, Con.

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Hmmmm,

...........some things you left out of the examples where you try to say God did wrong............

In the story of Ahab and Machaiah, you left out the fact that Ahab was the most evil king Isreal ever had. "Kings 16:30 summarized King Ahab's reign as "And Ahab the son of Omri did evil in the sight of the LORD above all that were before hiim"

In God's warning against deceiving prophets, you left out the preceding verses where God said to Ezekiel in Ezek 14:3-8......." 3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? 4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; 5 that I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself: 8 and I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

In both of these instances, God gave people over to their own evils. The people wanted to believe lies, they did not want to believe God, and He gave them what they wanted and the destruction that followed was the fullfillment of the judgement God promised against them for turning their backs on Him. He made examples of them by telling them ahead of time what He was going to do to them and why He was going to do it. The people who were being judged (punixhed) here had it coming and God knew they were not going to say sorry for anything they did wrong so He finally ran out of patience with them and gave them over to their own ways and executed judgement against them. God never lied to them. They were decieved by God because they did not want the truth........God could do nothing other than decieve them because to them, the truth was unacceptable to them . God gave them the deceit they loved untill it destroyed them. God executed them in His judgement agaisnt their evil ways. God destroyed them because they were against God and they would not say sorry to God.

In the story of the flood when God destroyed mankind except for Noah and his family, you left out this part.....
Gen 6:5:........... And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

God ran out of patience with them. They had all turned agaisnt God in everything they did. God preserved the human race through Noah. The whole world including Noah deseverd to die the same as we do because we have broken God's law. God is carrying out His plan by allowing us to continue under His mercy for now. When God destroyed the world with a flood, it was because He ran out of patience with them. He will run out of patience eventually with any person who is turned against God and will not return to Him seeking mercy from Him. The babies that died in the flood died under the sins of their parents. They had to die sooner or later because they were sinners the same as their parents and the same as us. I do not believe God holds babies accountable because they are not able to understand the concept of justice, and the Bible teaches this. Babies go to heaven when they die. The babies in the world at the time of the flood had their appointment with death at an early age thanks to their parents and God is not to blame. We are all born with guilt in our blood or in our genes or in our bones or however you want to say it, we are all imperfect, we have all sinned againt God and all must die to pay for our sins.

All of these accusations against God are attempts to deny God's right to punish the accuser. God is never to blame.

God has the right to execute any one of us at any time, and He has the right to take babies out of this world by any means He sees fit. When babies died under God's judgement, it was because of the sins of the parents or the sins of that nation.

God told the Israelites to annihilate certain nations because of the evil they had done against the Jews. God may execute judgement against any one of us at any time for any reason if we understand it or not. If God allows babies to die in judgements against people, it is the parents of those babies who brought God's judgement down on them.......or maybe God simply wanted to spare those babies from problems He knew they would have if the grew up. Who knows? God knows.

This whole line of accusaions against God is nothing more than refusal to admit that God has the right to punish. It's not God's fault that you have to die. It's not God's fault if you won't admit that you deserve to die and you won't seek His mercy. It's not God's fault if you believe you have the right to roam around wherever you can and wherever you feel like roaming and doing whatever you feel like doing. You do not have that right. If you insist on saying you have that right, God will send you strong delusion and you will believe that lie untill you are destroyed. God will harden your heart if you want to be hard against God because if you will not concede to His right to punish you, you will be hardened against God and that's the way you want it and God will let you have it that way and your destruction will be sure and God will destroy you and it will be your own fault.

Jesus is not the one who sows discord among brethren, it is the sin that is in the brethren that divides them. When one man chooses to follow Jesus and his brother will not, there is division between the brothers because of the stubbornness of the brother who would not follow Jesus. Jesus is God and it is not His fault if you will not follow Him. You can follow Him if you want to and not be the one who causes divisions amongst brethren. If all of the brothers together decide not to follow Jesus, then they are unitied in rebellion against God and they will all be destroyed together and that's their own fault.

The Egyptians were cruel to the Jews, God knew Pharoh would harden his heart, God hardened Pharoh's heart because Pharoh wanted to be hard against God. God simply remained unchanged, true to Himself, and Pharoh wanted God to change to allow Pharoh to do whatever he felt like doing whenever he felt like doing it. God hardened Pharoh's heart becaue God would not give in to Pharoh. Pharoh hardened his own heart and God gave him the hardness he wanted untill he was destroyed. God tried to get pharoh to reconsider and seek God's mercy but he got harder and harder against God. God could have destroyed all of the Egyptians together all at once if He chose to, but He wanted Pharoh to let Israel go free and Pharoh would not release Israel from being slaves until God was forced to go so far as to take all of the firstborn children of the Egyptians. God punished them and He has the right to punish anybody He feels like punishing in whatever way He sees fit. The Egypitians had it coming becuase of the way they had treated the Jews. It's not God's fault that they would not let the Jews go free, it's not God's fault that they ignored nine terrible plagues on their nation before the tenth one, the death of all their firstborn, finally convinced them that it's better to obey God and let the Jews go free. What will He have to do to convince you it is better for you to obey Him and seek His mercy than it is for you to harden your heart against Him and believe lies and insist you have the right to exist and roam unpunished simply because God created you?

The devil is the father of lies. He lied to Eve when he told her she would not surely die if she disobeyed God. The moment she disobeyed God, she entered into death, death entered into her, she was dead in her steps and Adam joined her in rebellion and died with her. God did not execute them in their death, they carried that death untill their bodies returned to the dust and they passed that death on to all of us. Satan's rap sheet is nothing but one big black mark against him for his rebellion against God. Your rap sheet is one big black mark against you for the sin that is in you and the sin you are in as you are dead in your sin now. You are under death penalty and it's just punishment for you. God is not to blame for your death. He is trying to save you from the devil's hell fire. He will not be patient with you forever. You have nobody to blame but yourself if you will not seek God honestly and stop trying to blame God and stop accusing Him of fault and take all of your own blame and admit to God that you are the only one at fault between you and Him.

Satan never stops sinning. He is in rebellion against God the same as you are.........the only difference is that Satan is deceiving you and you are deceiving yourself while being deceived and you are trying to blame God and it's your own fault if you are deceived because you don't want to admit that you deserve to be punished.......same as the devil.
Debate Round No. 2
doomswatter

Pro

Thank you, Con, for the prompt response.

I would like to remind everyone that this debate is not about whether God has the right to a certain course of action, but whether such a course of action conflicts with the revealed, "perfect" character of God.

If God's character has not been accurately revealed, then we have no standard of righteousness and can not be held accountable for falling short of an unknown standard.

If God's character has been accurately revealed, then an action that opposes or conflicts with his character can safely be considered sin.


REBUTTALS

Ahab and Micaiah

My opponent is claiming that God's actions, and thereby his character, were contingent on the character of Ahab. So, Con's case is that the unchanging, perfect God, who claims to hate a lying tongue, orchestrated the deception of Ahab through the lies of divinely possessed prophets because Ahab was evil. Why Ahab's sinful character forced God to adapt sinful characteristics, my opponent does not say. Could the omnipotent God not have dealt with Ahab any number of ways that did not conflict with the Proverbs hate list?

Ezekiel 14:3-8

Again, my opponent relates the character of God's enemies as justification for God's actions. However, the character of a perfect, unchanging God should not be conditional. If God's character is contingent on man's character, then God ceases to be a perfect, unchanging standard.

Con says, "God could do nothing other than deceive them because to them, the truth was unacceptable to them." I suppose simply letting them destroy themselves, or applying some other form of punishment was not an option? Why was an omnipotent God coerced into breaking character and supporting an act he claims to hate, when there were obviously other options?

Innocent Infants

Con admits: "I do not believe God holds babies accountable because they are not able to understand the concept of justice, and the Bible teaches this." In spite of this admission, Con attempts to justify God's slaughter of infants by claiming that they share guilt with their parents, and that they ultimately share a common, inborn guilt with the human race. By this reasoning, no one is "innocent".

If that is so, and innocent blood does not exist, then why does God say in Proverbs that he hates "hands that shed innocent blood"? Is God being coy, or intentionally pointless? If I run around killing babies, God doesn't hate my hands because the babies are guilty by association? Apparently, God himself seems to think that innocent blood indeed exists:

"Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked." -Exodus 23:7

"Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person." -Deuteronomy 27:25

"Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression." -Psalm 19:13

"They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood." -Psalm 94:21

"Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood." -Psalm 106:37-38

"Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths." -Isaiah 59:7

According to the Bible, innocence exists. If anyone is innocent, it would be infant children who are not old enough to have a proud look, a lying tongue, murdering hands, etc.

There are many inconsistencies in Con's following statements about God's dealings with sinners, but I need not address them as they are irrelevant to the point at hand. No matter how God deals with the guilty, my opponent has not shown why God slaughtered masses of infant children when he claims to hate hands that shed innocent blood.

Discord Among Brethren

Con attempts to justify Jesus' statements about causing familial discord by blaming the discord on those who would not follow Jesus. First, this directly contradicts Jesus' words, as Jesus says, "I am come to set a man at variance..." He did not say that the nonbelievers would create the variance. He readily accepts the blame for the discord.

Second, you can not blame the affected for the effects of the affector. If you drop a rock into a pool of water, is the water to blame for the ripples? By the same token, if Jesus came to set family members against each other, the members who were at peace before his coming can not be blamed for the upset. That is not fair at all.

Satan

My opponent uses ad hominem against Satan by calling him "the father of lies", but does not present instances of lying to support his claims, other than the serpent in Eden, which I already covered. Con has not shown how my analysis of the Eden story is incorrect. He has not proven that the serpent was indeed Satan, nor that the serpent intended to lie, nor that the serpent knew of the actions God would take in order to self-fulfill the prophecy of death.

My opponent then claims that Satan never stops sinning and is in rebellion against God. Since this debate is dealing in Biblical instances only, Con can not prove these claims.

NEW ARGUMENTS

Although at this point it seems unnecessary, I would like to briefly discuss two events that Christians often claim are examples of Satan's sin.

The Desolation of Job

In the book of Job, Satan speaks with God in heaven. God brags about Job being faithful and righteous, but Satan scoffs and claims that Job is only faithful because God has made him rich and successful. So God "makes a bet", and gives Satan permission to take everything away from Job to prove that Job will still be faithful. All of Job's livestock are stolen or burned up, most of his servants are killed, and all of his children die when their house falls on them. These unwarranted deaths are horrible, but did Satan sin?


God removed his protection from Job and all but commanded Satan to do his worst, and all for a psychology experiment. Either God wanted to see what Job would do, or, worse, God already knew what Job would do and just wanted to show Satan. Either way, God is complicit in these tragedies. Job acknowledges this when he says, "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away" in Job 1:21, and his family agreed when they "bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" in Job 42:11. If Satan can be blamed at all, God still shares guilt.

Satan's Rebellion

Satan's heavenly rebellion against God is popularly considered the first recorded sin. This is an interesting case, however, when you examine the nature of sin. As previously stated, sin is apparently anything that does not fit within the revealed character of God. If God wouldn't do it, it's sin. In this light, is rebellion against God a sin? Obedience and submission are not parts of God's character. He has no one to obey or submit to. Even if he could question his own authority, he obviously wouldn't, since he is intent on ruling the universe and having all life worship him. Therefore, if someone questions or rebels against God's authority, they are conflicting with God's goals, but not with his character. It is conceivable that someone could still be "Godly" and righteous in their actions toward other men while questioning God's authority.


Although this is interesting to contemplate, most Christians agree that failing to worship God is just as much a sin as doing something that offends his character. However, even if they are correct and Satan's rebellion was a sin, that is still only one instance of Satan's sin to God's ten that I have pointed out. My opponent has not sufficiently rebutted a single one of the ten, so God is still the bigger offender in this debate.

Back to you, Con.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

God's actions regarding Ahab and Micaiah were contingent on His own character, not Ahab's character. God acted agaisnt Ahab in accordance with His own character which is blameless. If we look at things assuming God can be blamed, we will misunderstand things and not assign blame where it belongs and not understand the character of God. Ahad orchestrated his own downfall, God gave him rope and he hanged himself with it. Ahad did not want the truth, and God finally gave up on Ahab and let him fall in his own pride, believing the lies he wanted to believe so God gave him what he had coming and what he deserved, a fatal fall in battle.

The things God hates are flaws in mankind. For Him to put you to death, and you know you are being put to death, is not murder, it is not shedding innocent blood. We all have death in our genes from the moment of conception, and a baby who dies goes to heaven because it has not attained the ability to reason so it could ask for mercy. God is just. I do not justfy Him. He is self-justified. He created me. He is before I was. He does not need me to justify Himself. He is just in punishing people however he sees fit. If He decides your baby cannot be allowed to grow to maturity, that is His decision and He who created you has the right to end your life at any time in any way and He is not to blame.

Again, all of the aruments trying to pin blame on God and find fault with God are ultimatley trying to make yourself equal to God so that God would have to be negated from having the right to send you to the fire of hell. You can't take away God's right to rule over you. You can't deny God's right to punish you. You can try, but God won't buy it. You cannot be godly if you are questioning God's authority. You cannot be righteous if you question God's authority or not. You have to be a new creature born of God's Spirt to be righteous, and then it's Him in you who is righteous. In your own right, you are defiled and cannot make yourself clean. Tryiing to paint God as unrighteous will not make an excuse for you. It won't work. It will only get you to one place in the end, and you don't want to go there and God does not want you to go there. You are hardening your heart against God and opening yourself up to be led by lying spirits the same as Ahab and you will be destroyed the same as Ahad was if you keep trying to blame God and deny His authority over you. You are intelligent and I thank you for keeping this debate civil. I hope you will stop trying to blame God for things when He cannot be blamed for anything bad and He is not at fault if anything good is withheld from you. God loves you and He wants you to be saved from death.
Debate Round No. 3
doomswatter

Pro

Thanks, Pro, for a stimulating debate, and thank you for your concern for my soul. Although I don't feel that personal pleas of a religious nature belong in a debate, I respect the fact that you have your own style and leave it to the voters to determine its merit.

REBUTTALS

"God's actions... were contingent on His own character..."

If Con believes this, then Con believes that it is in God's character to lie and deceive. If it is in God's character to lie and deceive, why does God claim to hate lying? Why does God condemn liars, if they are only following his example?

"If we look at things assuming God can be blamed..."

I am not assuming anything. I am only taking God at his word, and God said he hates lying. Is it wrong for me to expect a perfect God to be consistent?

"...God gave him what he had coming and what he deserved..."

I am not questioning what any person "deserves". I am simply asking why God would spread lies and deceit after strongly declaring his hatred for lying.

"The things God hates are flaws in mankind."

Can something be considered a flaw if God himself possesses it? Is Con saying that God only hates lying when it's someone else doing it, but it's perfectly fine if he does it? How is that a consistent example of righteousness and holiness? How can we hope to emulate him if he is not consistent?

"For him to put you to death, and you know you are being put to death, is not murder, it is not shedding innocent blood."

Infants do not know they are being "put to death", much less why.

"...a baby who dies goes to heaven because it has not attained the ability to reason..."

This justifies the shedding of their innocent blood? Not only could this be used as an argument for any type of infanticide or abortion, it does not explain why God would cause and order the shedding of innocent blood while claiming to hate the act. Does God hate the shedding of innocent blood, or does he want us to slaughter babies and send them to heaven? His example is inconsistent.

"He is just in punishing people however he sees fit."

I am not questioning this. However, when God describes what he "sees fit" one way, and then acts another way, we are left dealing with the conflict. If God is perfect, how can he contradict himself? He can't. It is a paradox.

"You can't take away God's right to rule over you."

I am not debating whether God has a "right" to rule over me. I am debating whether God has violated his own standards, and thereby sinned.


Conclusion

I believe that I have sufficiently shown that God has sinned by his own definition, and that he has sinned more often than Satan, according to Biblically recorded events. My opponent has not offered events of Satan sinning, but has instead elected to spend his time attempting to prove that God can not sin. I do not believe that my opponent's arguments have been sufficient, as I have shown in my own rebuttals. I would ask that Con please remember that the final round is for rebuttals and closing only, and no new arguments may be introduced.

I hope this debate has been interesting and informative for all. Thank you, voters, for your fair and honest consideration.

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Thank you for not taking offense at the style of opposition I have used against your postion. The plea i am making is not religious, it is reality. We all have to go somewhere when we leave this world. If we are trying to find fault with God, we will find out that it is us who is at fault and not Him. My plea is for you to reconsider your accusations against God, lest he not reconsider His accusations againt you. He is not the one in danger of losing His place.......He is the only One who can keep you safe throughout eternity.

This whole argument is a personal attempt to convince yourself that you are as righteious as God is. It's not good to take a stance against God.....not good for you. It won't hurt me, I know I'm the one who needs to be forgiven and God needs no forgiveness from anybody and no permission to do anything He decides to do. Attempts to misuse the Bible to try to prove differently are a mistake based on a mistaken premise that seeks to place blame on God. I did not spend too much time addressing the individual points because they are all taken out of context and misinterpreted from the mistake starting point of saying God is at fault and He is not perfect and He can be blamed.

Thank you for your gentlemanly conduct in disagreeing.

Remember, I did say all Satan does is in sin, all he does is sin, all he is is one big black spot. There is no need to list individual sins of Satan because all he does is sin. He is in rebellion against God and in sin and his "rap sheet" is entirely filled up so all the things agaisnt him leave no room on the "rap sheet" for any space that is not filled by his sin.

God has no rap sheet. There is no fault in God. You cannot blame God. If you think God can be blamed for anything wrong or God is at fault in any way, then you will misinterpret His Word in ways that attempt to make you look as good as God in your own eyes and you will only be fooling yourself primarily, and perhaps others secondarily, but God will always be blameless and He will not tolerate the accuasions of rebells against Him forever.

God did not "bet" concerning Job. Satan was betting. God knew what would happen from the start. If you try to bet against God, you can't win because He knows the outcome before you place your bet. God knew Job would not curse Him to His face as Satan insisted that He would. Job make the mistake in the end of claiming to be blameless and undeserving of the trial God put him through. Job changed His mind about that also because Job knew God could not be blamed for anything, not even for testing Job, and Job had no right to stand up to God.

The misunderstandings of God's Word and the passages taken out of context attempting to deny the holiness of God were too numerous for me to adress individually.......I don't have that much time, the arguments used by my opponent were not put together quickly or easily. It took a lot of study and research to pick out these passages and build arguments against God by twisting meanings and taking things out of context........which is normal for a person who does not want to admit that God can never be blamed for anything bad that happens.

My arguements will never be sufficient when the reader is looking at God as being wrong for anytihing in any way.
All of the points of my opponents argument which find fault with or place blame on God can be explained by other passages in the Bible, but to do them all at once in this debate would take an amout of time comparable to the time it took for whoever made this well researched and plotted accusatory argument against God. I could do it, but not easily and quickly enough. If you believe God can be blamed for anything wromg or found at fault in any way, then Con should win more points in your vote. If you believe God cannot be blamed and there is no fault in Him, then my arguments have been sufficient to support your belief and I should get more points from you.

What is more important to me is the manner of maturity and civility that my opponent showed in this debate......to my pleasant surprise, thank you Doomswatter. If I could honest say it is possible for God to be found at fault or to be blamed for anything wrong, I would have to give the winning points to Doomswatter and you should do the same if you think it is possible for God have a rap sheet of offenses that can be held against Him.

Also, I used the approach of a personal plea to doomswatter to change his mind because it is the same plea God makes to us all, pleading for us to agree with Him that He is altogehter righteous and has the ritght to test us or punish us in any way He sees fit, and to not accuse Him of any fault and not try to blame Him for anything bad or wrong.
Debate Round No. 4
113 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
It's likely the Opposite.
All people are mostly Truthful, except those asserting we should believe in God, who are mostly Untruthful.

All religious Apologists are Liars.
So all people pushing Christian Apologetics, (belief in God) are pushing Lies.

Such as those I see being pushed by LMGiG here.
The Canonical Gospels are all known to be Lies by honest New Testament researchers.

Only Apologists (liars) try to paint them as Truthful.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Let God be true, and every man a liar
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
1 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Again: Still quoting from a Book that has been proven to be Nonsense by Archaeology, Geology, History and Astronomy. There is not one science that supports that Bible as a valid piece of evidence for God.

Genesis is Wrong!
Exodus never happened!
Leviticus is Stupidly Naive.
etc..... Until the new testament, every single Book of the old testament contains errors.
The Gospels were not Witness accounts of Jesus's Life, because all witnesses were dead before 40 years after the death of Jesus, when the first Gospel was written, the others came years later.
So the gospels of Luke and John had no input from Luke nor John, as they were well and truly Dead.
They were from passed down fairy-tales/Legends about Jesus, started by Saul.

Paul only wrote some of the Epistles, not all of them.
Paul never met Jesus either, so made much of it up, including the Women finding an empty Tomb and Resurrection myth.
Truth is more likely that Jesus was tossed into a Mass Grave along with the rest of the criminals executed alongside him and thus they could not find the body, as it was mixed up with all his co-criminals.
Some of those bones discovered in Mass Graves by Archaeologists are likely to be those of Jesus Christ, but nobody knows his DNA, so we cannot test for it.
If they find confirmed remains of James, we may be able to extract DNA and compare it to those found in Mass Graves, and we may find the bones of Jesus of Nazareth.
But that is a long shot.

Essentially the Gospels are nonsense because they all disagree with each other, The Virgin Birth only exists in two while the other two deny it happened as they don't mention such an important event in the life of Jesus and They all disagree on what the very last words of Jesus Christ were, another important thing they screwed up. Demonstrating the Gospels were made up by their unknown Authors.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
2 Peter 2:12
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle,(body) to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, (body) even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
1 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Quoting from the Book Of Nonsense, (Bible), proves nothing.
It was written by people devoid of any real knowledge of reality.
They even thought that stars were stuck on the underside of the dome called Heaven.
If the Bible was right, our space craft would smash into Heaven and cause one of stars stuck on it with silly putty to dislodge and Fall to Earth:
Revelations 6:13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."
Demonstrating a writer with less Cosmological/Astrological knowledge than any current 10 year old child.
Yes, the Bible writers think that the Earth is a Snow Globe with Stars stuck on the inside of the Dome.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
1 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Phoenix61397 2 years ago
Phoenix61397
doomswatterLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Con abandoned argument by reason for an emotional type of argument, in the process abandoning the debate. The debate concerned biblical records, and pro won.
Vote Placed by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
doomswatterLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro wins this debate simply because Con was in over his head, failing to use the original Hebrew & Greek words of the Scriptures to debunk a few of Pro's core arguments which are based on the erroneous translation of the English interpretation of Scriptures. Without the proper subtext for refutation, Pro's core arguments are insurmountable. Thus, he wins.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
doomswatterLifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro's insights and arguments were sound, Con tried to provide excuses for the deeds of God, which made it a very weak argument. as if God was truly omniscient, it could name the seemingly evil ones and easily remove them (omnipotence), since it failed to do this and instead destroyed the lives of thousands of innocents, it is neither Omniscient, nor Omnipotent, instead it follows Pro's argument and appears Omni-Malevolent.