The Instigator
Pro (for)
2 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
8 Points

Satan's power is dynamic not static

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 671 times Debate No: 59083
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (2)




The position of pro, (me) is that Satan is not God's lackey. Con's position will be that Satan has to ask God before he can act. This debate is taking for granted that Satan in some form is real and certain terms will be used interchangeably such as Satan, Lucifer, Abaddon, Accusser, Adversary, Apollyon, Beelzebub, Deceiver, Devil, Enemy, Father of lies, God of this age, etc. The Bible, mythology, Rabbinical teachings and the Apocrypha is where the information about Satan is found. Science can give us very little if any information concerning this debate. History and philosophy even less.

If you can't do more than 1 or 2 sentences then please don't sign up for this debate as I am new here and so far have not gotten much out of my opponents, (probably it is my fault). So I will start debating now and good luck-

The Book of Job seems to lead the reader to the conclusion that Satan must appear before God as a prerequisite to Satan testing one of God's servants. As though God has a protective covering of some sort around His people and nothing can penetrate such a covering unless and until God opens up at least a little bit. Now at one point this may have been true, say in the Garden of Eden when the Man and the Woman were innocent. But Job was by no means innocent.


Hello Pivot. Thank you for debating me : ) I will start out with a famous passage from Job that I believe you refer to:

Job 1:6-12 (New International Version 2011)
Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
Job 1:9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied.
Job 1:10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
Job 1:11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
Job 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

In the context of:

Luke 6:46-48 (New International Version 2011)
Lk 6:46 "Why do you call me, "Lord, Lord," and do not do what I say?
Lk 6:47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like.
Lk 6:48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.


John 15:4-7 (New International Version 2011)
Jn 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
Jn 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Jn 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jn 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.


Isaiah 45:5a (New International Version 2011)
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.


Deuteronomy 11:26-28 (New International Version 2011)
Dt 11:26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse"
Dt 11:27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today;
Dt 11:28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.

(And Lastly)

Luke 10:17-20 (New International Version 2011)
Lk 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
Lk 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Lk 10:19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
Lk 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Jikpamu: In the context of all these verses and personal experience (I believe) that as a Christian I must submit to my Lord Jesus in obedience to Him if I wish to be successful against the kingdom of darkness and be protected from it (Job's hedge of protection). If I am disobedient to the Lord God of the Bible then I cannot expect that same Lord to protect me.

Jesus (God) is infinitely more powerful than satan as powerful as he is and so he must submit in the case of a "Righteous" "Christ-filled" Christian to the will of God in that said Christian's life. He cannot break the hedge of protection though he try unless God allows him to do so apparently as in the case of Job by satan accusing the believer before God.

I personally believe in reference to:

James 1:2-4 (New International Version 2011)
Jas 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
Jas 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.
Jas 1:4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

(that) these trials/tests are administered by satan only under the approval of God for the strengthening of a believer's faith.

Your turn Pivot...
Debate Round No. 1


Rebuttal to Con's round 1:

1) Job 1:6-12
Response: "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" I said, "Here I am. Send me."" (Isaiah 6:8)
This verse does not mean to imply that the Lord had to ask someone to become His messenger. It could have been that the Lord was being polite. Or it could have been that He was testing. There could be many reasons for the Lord asking a question. But not knowing the answer ahead of time cannot be a reasonable explanation for the Lord putting forth a question. So when the Lord asked Satan a question in the Book of Job it was not because the Lord did not know.

And when the Lord said that Job was blameless and upright that cannot mean that Job himself is righteous in and of himself because "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) We no longer need to figure out how God could declare Job righteous. Job had faith, "I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth." (Job 19:25) God could declare Job righteous because, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8 + 9)

God gave Job righteousness but not like He gave Job earthly blessings. Earthly blessings are 'here today gone tomorrow'. Righteousness does not benefit the flesh in any way- "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life." (John 6:63)

2) Luke 6:46-48
Contradicts the life of Job as given prior to Job 1:6-12 if Luke 6:46-48 is to be applied to the flesh because the house of Job fell and great was the fall thereof. So great that Job's family perished in the fall and Job went down to the social equivalent of the gutter.

In Luke 6:46-48 either Job was unrighteous or Luke 6:46-48 does not apply to the flesh. I say that the Luke passage cannot apply to the flesh because Job's house fell and God Himself declared Job righteous.

3) John 15:4-7
Job did remain in his Redeemer and even though Job's fleshly house has fallen and turned to dust and trampled under the foot of man Job by faith is redeemed.

4) Isaiah 45:5a
"Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? (John 10:34) And one of the titles given to Satan is 'god of this world'.

5) Deuteronomy 11:26-28
I don't exactly understand Con's point here with this passage? I think it is that if we obey the Law then God promises to bless us here in this life, on the Earth, and in the flesh. (Jesus obeyed and fulfill all the Law and the Prophets and all He got out of it here in this life, on the Earth, and in His Flesh was being nailed to the Cross. He didn't even have a place to lay His head. He didn't even have a wife and kids. He didn't even have money to pay His tax. He couldn't even afford a grave site.)

(While not ignoring the other verses and the statement of Con's that Christians are to submit and then receive rewards I think my rebuttal has been sufficient.)

Pro's round 2 argument:

Now for the Luke 10:17-20 passage-
"The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

The important part of this passage is that the names of the 72 were written in heaven because there came a time when the demons no longer submitted to the 72. Satan eventually got to every one of them. The houses of each of the 72 fell along with the House of Israel.

By using the Luke 10:17-20 passage Con is proving my point that the power of Satan is dynamic. "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." This is an observation of the decline of Satanic power, (Satan no longer had the power to hold a position in heaven like the power Satan had in the book of Job). Thus Satan's power is not static. Christ Himself declares that Satanic power goes down. Plus the 72 were pleasantly surprised that the demons obeyed them. That is because prior to this the demons did not obey them which is another example of a dynamic power in action, (sometimes the demons had power to resist and sometimes they did not have the power to resist).

All that is left for me to do is to show that Satan no longer needs to ask God's permission to attack the brotherhood of believers as Satan had too in the Garden and in the Book of Job.


In regards to:

1) It is true that all have sinned but like you said "God gave Job righteousness": there are many verses which speak to people being imparted righteousness or being expected to practice righteousness even though they may not be perfect in this: Matthew 5:6, Galatians 5:5, and 1 John 3:9-10:

1 John 3:9-10 (New King James Version)
1Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

2) I believe I explained that while if you are righteous God will put a hedge of protection around you that also God is capable of lowering that hedge of protection and allowing satan to afflict you so that you might grow. After all God is the Potter, we are the clay. The Potter can do whatever He wants with the clay : )

3) When comparing John with Luke and Job, "House" as mentioned in the Luke 6:46-48 Passage is symbolic while the house that fell on Job's children was literal. (Goes back to the Potter and the clay).

4) I am aware that both people and fallen angels have been called gods (lowercase plural g) but in fact there is only one True God Eternal and the Creator of all other things.

5) John 16:33 (New King James Version)
Jn 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Persecution does not give one the right to break God's Law by worshipping false gods.

6) In reference to Luke 10:17-20: satan and his demons only submitted to the 72 once Jesus gave them authority over satan and the demons. As long as a Christian is in submission to the God of the Bible there is nothing satan can do to that person that will be significant unless he accuses the Christian before God and God decides to lower his/her hedge of protection possibly to allow the Christian to grow. It's called affliction or trial and is spoken about in Romans 12:12 and James 1:2-4.

With that being said: it is true that even the righteous die before their time is up as in the case when Saul was pursuing David, and Doeg the Edomite accused the priests at Nob before Saul so Saul had the priests killed.

In short - things do not always work out nicely even for nice people but that does not change the fact that God is the Blessed Controller of all things!!

***) Now my turn as to personal experience with the kingdom of darkness:

"Avoiding the Appearance of Evil"

While my wife was away at work today, 6/23/2014, I watched Max Lucado on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network). He gave a short 30 minute Sermon on Joseph being tempted by Potiphar's wife to commit adultery from Genesis 39:7-12 and how Joseph obeyed the Lord and refused to commit adultery with her.

At the end of the sermon, Max Lucado (who is a well known Christian author) said "soon" that the viewer (as in me) would face sexual temptation and that the viewer needed to be faithful to the Lord Jesus.

I went outside a few minutes later to get the mail before my wife would return home from work. Inside my mailbox was a package for another address.

I thought "I will do the decent thing and be a good neighbor and hand carry the package to the address it belongs to". As I was walking in my neighborhood towards the other condo, I noticed on the package that it was addressed to a woman.

I decided at that point I would ring the doorbell to the gate of the condo subgroup, but not deliver the package inside if I am buzzed in, but instead wait for the person to come and get the package outside on the street.

I ringed the buzzer and I was immediately "buzzed" in. I rang it again and was buzzed in again. I rang it 2 more times and was buzzed in each time. Then a young woman yelled to me outside, "Who is it?" I said that I had a package for her so she came down and got the package and I left.

Now I really doubt anything "sexual" would have happened if I had gone up to her condo but it would have had an "appearance of evil" and could have been a source of accusation if someone had inquired as to what I was doing at someone else's condo and then they found out a young woman lived there.

God warned me using the Bible, TBN, and Max Lucado. The enemy, satan, is very much active in trying to destroy the lives of the servants of Jesus. Be aware of sexual temptation and even the appearance of evil.

***) I have had other experiences with the Kingdom of Darkness but they are not very provable so I will refrain from mentioning them.
Debate Round No. 2


Rebuttal to Con's round 2:
1) God gave Job the gift of righteousness because Job had no righteousness of his own-
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
This Isaiah verse could be considered to apply to the Nation of Ancient Israel and their fleshly descendants only and not to individuals especially non-Jacob type people. But that is ok for this discussion on two counts-
1) Job is in the ancient Israel earthly lineage somehow
2) Modern day Jewish peoples so identify with Job that in their minds they probably consider Job a type of the Nation because of the great suffering that Job and the Moderns have witnessed.

The reason point 2 above is important is because while Satan fell from Heaven like lightening denoting a loss of power it should be considered that whatever power remains in Satan's fall from Heaven is concentrated on the Earth. Why is this important? Because the suffering of the Moderns has many times been very much greater than what Job suffered. The history of the Jewish people records unprecedented suffering during WWII. The power of Satan is dynamic because it decreased in the fall from Heaven but increased on the Earth.

2) As to God placing a hedge around us today-

I am going to try and describe what the "whole armor of God" looks like when we put the entire thing on before we Christians go out to do battle. First I will list the components. In Ephesians 6 there are 6 pieces of armor:
a) helmet of salvation
b) shield of faith
c) loins girt with 'belt' of truth
d) feet shod with gospel of peace
e) sword of the spirit/word
f) breastplate of righteousness
When the Christian puts all this on he/she is supposed to look like the Lamb of God who was slain. There is no hedge about us. If we find that there is a hedge about us we need to break out and fight the enemy nothing wavering. The good soldier fighting the good fight is paid the wage of a soldier which is eternal life and not Earthly wealth.

Pro's round 3 argument:

Now why do I say that Satan no longer asks God for permission to attack the Brethren?

Satan is no longer the one doing the attacking. While Satan's power is dynamic like shifting sand, Satan's position is in fact static. Satan is the one who is now trapped, trapped on the Earth. Satan is on the defensive making his final stand. We Christians are the ones who ask God to give us the ability to cause Satan to suffer loss.



1) Job and Righteousness: I think you might be nitpicking when you say Job was not responsible for any of his own good behavior. (To me at least) that sounds like an OCD Argument (just saying).

2) There is such a thing as hedge of protection which God puts around His faithful ones. I HIGHLY suspect God has even put an Angelic Hedge of Protection around my dog as she has been protected many times from harm. My wife too has been protected many times as I have been.

3) In regards to your third and final argument all I can say is you better trust God and His Bible because satan is a whole lot smarter than you or I and you need God's hedge of protection. Through Christ there is victory over the Kingdom of Darkness, BUT ONLY through Christ.

Regarding other experiences with the Kingdom of Darkness:

*) Twice a Christian Devotional book (Daily in Christ by Neil Anderson) has warned in advance that someone I knew was using a something satanic and it turned out that a relative of mine was using a horoscope on Facebook. As soon as I told the relative to stop using the horoscope my relative stopped using it.

Also the same Christian Devotional book warned me again about the same matter and that time a friend on Facebook was using a horoscope and even though I warned the friend that it was for the best that they stop using the horoscope, I personally believe they continued to use it as I saw evidence of the kingdom of darkness in their other posts on Facebook.

NEVER-EVER seek guidance from the kingdom of darkness using a horoscope as you are opening yourself up to influences you don't want. Directly consult the Bible or a Bible-based devotional for insight.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Free_Th1nker 2 years ago
"Science can give us very little if any information concerning this debate."

Actually, science can give us no information concerning this debate because there is no evidence to even suggest that Satan is real.

Furthermore, this debate ignores Laveyan Satanist philosophy and the teachings of the Satanic Bible.
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
lol I read "Satan's power is dynamic, not satanic".
Posted by Jikpamu 2 years ago
That is fine. Have a great day : )
Posted by pivot 2 years ago
Ok jikpamu,

Looking forward to your number 3. I am going to have to step away from the computer for awhile. Don't look for me to post again until either later tonight or early tomorrow morning. Debating with you is fun. Maybe I will friend you if you wouldn't mind. Thanks,

Posted by Jikpamu 2 years ago
Your turn : )

I just remembered at least 2 other experiences so if I get a chance I might mention them : )
Posted by pivot 2 years ago
I forgot to mention experience. Sorry jikpamu. I am not trying to leave anything out. Just that it is hard to include everything.

Your experience is important and can be helpful to others, myself included. I don't take it lightly.
Posted by Jikpamu 2 years ago
I think you are saying: "we cannot know a thing/happening until it occurs"...

In the context of the kingdom of darkness I have had my own run-ins with this area and can offer at least some testimony to it (I am assuming in the context of your debate then this is what you are saying/asking)

In the context of prophecy: that deals with the future but if God has said something will occur then it will...
(However) often God does not give specific details so while we think we know how something may occur that God has told us whether through His Word or through vision we may only know that something will indeed occur without knowing specific details unless they are given. Thus one has to be careful of giving interpretation to a prophecy and definitely not go beyond what God has revealed to the prophet to speak or say.
Posted by pivot 2 years ago
Sorry jikpamu,
I did not mean to imply a person can't have prior knowledge such as Bible prophecy or the gift of prophecy. Yes we are given prophecy concerning Satan and in the Church we are given certain people with the gift of Prophecy. Excluding these and other things was not my intent. I should have said "apart from the Bible, mythology, Rabbinical teachings, the Apocrypha and those people with the gift of Prophecy etc. we cannot know a thing/happening until it occurs.
Posted by Jikpamu 2 years ago
Hello Pivot : )

Who says that I don't have experience with "that [which] cannot be determined until the thing/event happens"? : )

I will try if possible to relate personal experience as well in these matters and the power of God (Jesus) to overcome it : )
Posted by pivot 2 years ago
I enjoy reading the scripture that you give jikpamu and find no fault in them. Before I continue maybe a small amount of clarification is in order-

Static denotes a fixed position. Not much is added or subtracted. Dynamic denotes the possibility of changes to a position. Since in this debate we are talking about power then dynamic power can increase, decrease or stay the same depending on, (and here is the rub) depending on something that cannot be determined until the thing/event happens.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Codedlogic 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Both debaters made excellent use of Biblical scriptures. Though I think Con made better arguments. It's always amazing to me that on nearly every theological topic the Bible can be used to both support and refute an issue. I am giving conduct points to Pro as Con tried to turn their closing argument into a sermon.
Vote Placed by Paradigm 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Interesting debate. Based on the arguments it seems clear that Satan's power is dynamic. However, the Pro side also needed to show that Satan does not need God's permission to attack the faithful. Pro barely touched on this topic, and did not really explain his position. Con on the other hand discussed this topic in some detail. Therefore, I award the arguments vote to Con. I also think that Con did a better job of using scriptural quotations to support his position. However, both sides had a tendency to go off topic and discuss theological matters that were not directly relevant to the debate. Since I think that Con was a bit more guilty of this than Pro, I have given Pro the conduct vote.