The Instigator
policydebategod
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
hark
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

School Vouchers are the shizz!!!

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/25/2007 Category: Education
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,103 times Debate No: 992
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (8)

 

policydebategod

Pro

- Rich parents have a choice of schools for their kids; poor parents should have the same choice.
- Competition between schools is increased, leading to greater efficiency and results in all schools.
- Private schools have a better history of getting results in teaching information and values than public schools.
- Those parents who send their kids to private schools must in effect pay twice; i.e. their taxes pay for public schools that their children don't even attend.
- Providing private school access to everyone will increase diversity.
- The parent makes the choice between religious or non-religious schooling; thus, the government isn't imposing religion.
- No Child Left Behind surely is not working.
hark

Con

Summary:
School vouchers are generally touted as a method by which the poor can opt to send their children to private schools, without paying taxes for public education. Usually persons in favor of this tend to be Catholic, and wish to educate their children as such. What many people disregard is that most legislation that suggests vouchers strongly favors a break for the very rich from paying into public education, and will not support the middle class and poor in their desires to send children to private schools. Nonetheless, none should be exempt from paying into public education. If these people don't wish to pay twice, because of a failing education system, then they have the obligation and responsibility to fix it. Other avenues are also available to the middle class and poor to gain entry into private schools, such as scholarships. In lieu of the fact that vouchers support the rich and seek to destroy public education, then it should be obvious that vouchers are more of a threat than a call to competition for the betterment of education.

Refutation of each point:
- School vouchers favor the rich. In fact, most voucher programs favor exorbitantly rich persons, and try to exempt rich persons from paying taxes that support public education. Vouchers for the poor are hardly a factual matter. Most people in favor of vouchers are also in favor or private indoctrination through religion, instead of traditional earning. What is worse No Child Left Behind, or giving precedence to god over learning?

- Competition between schools should not come at the expense of public education. Vouchers mean less money is being funneled into public education, thus making it difficult for public schools to compete with ALREADY limited state and federal funds coming their way. We are talking about the future here. Why would we want to compete with something so precious? Get it right or don't do it at all. It isn't worth having losers in a game that involves the future, and will ultimately be detrimental when we realize who the losers were. Everyone has the right to a good education, and playing games to see who can provide the best education is callous morally wrong. All people deserve a good education regardless of which school they can afford.

- Private schools get results, because rich kids get precedence over the poor. Vouchers only further the problem. More money should go to public education, instead of letting the rich write themselves off. We have terrible underfunded education systems, because there is not sufficient funding to support the system. Not because they are any less effective that private schools. If you were to input all private schools funds into the same apparatus, then it would succeed in the same manner. The rich care about their children, not other children, and this should not be tolerated. Vouchers are hardly altruistic in their nature, and promote elitism of the highest caliber. As if to say that private education is inherently superior for no good reason, while public education rots when the rich continue to deny further funding to public education.

- If you pay twice, then that is your business. If you don't like public education, then change it by protesting for better funding. Just because you decide to spend your money elsewhere for double the education does not mean that public education should suffer the consequences.

- Private schools do not increase diversity. Many private schools are religiously based, and consequently rich white kids all going to the rich white school are not really all that diverse. Remember that most people eligible for vouchers will be the rich, at least according to most voucher legislation in effect.

- If parents want vouchers on religious grounds, then they need to realize that a secular education is timeless. Secularism in education is an on going tradition. For good reason, 1 + 1 = 2 does not involves god, nor do many other basic education subjects. If parents disagree with some views, then schools can welcome different opinions while remaining neutral. Parents can educate their children according to their beliefs and standards. A secular education teaches nothing but the facts, and should therefore be no worse off than a religious education. I would even say that more could be learned without god interrupting in the learning experience of children.

- No Child Left Behind is failing. It is failing because federally mandated tests fail children of varying backgrounds. Why? Mostly because we do not invest enough in state education. Eliminate NCLB, and learn to accept that no population is the same, thus the needs of different students should be met by instating different programs for them. Funding funding funding! It is without a doubt the biggest problem inherent in the system. Vouchers want to take away our dearly needed funds for measures that will surely be detrimental to our educational systems over time.
Debate Round No. 1
policydebategod

Pro

policydebategod forfeited this round.
hark

Con

To respond to the comments made by kels as the rebuttal to my argument.

I will admit wrong in that you are correct that probably most rich white kids are not the only makeup of these schools, nor should it be ignored that there is much more diversity than I acknowledged or knew of. That you for this clarification. However, it can be said that most legislation for vouchers will without a doubt favor rich white kids over the poor working class that are already attempting to stay afloat. It is in my opinion that at least within the U.S. schools should garner public funding without exception, even if those persons for some reason do not appreciate public school. No one is prohibiting them from private prayers or lack of worship, and an excess of god in education is abhorrently unnecessary. The government finds an educated populous to be valuable, and will give everyone the opportunity to be educated. If persons so choose to spend on education that does the same job elsewhere for more money, then that is their business. For highly destitute families that insist on private education, then perhaps some type of voucher would be in order. Voucher legislation as I have seen favors the rich without a doubt.
Debate Round No. 2
policydebategod

Pro

policydebategod forfeited this round.
hark

Con

Well, it seems as if my opponent has been silenced either with account deletion or banning. I cannot speak to the fact that this a good debate, but I tried to give what I knew on the subject and argue to that point of view.

Vouchers in in theory a great idea, but probably will detract from the current public education if they are implement, thus they should not be seen as a viable solution to financial woes, especially considering their bias toward the rich.

Make your decision thence! I know that you will probably vote your own opinions, but there is nothing I can do to stop you.

Thanks!
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by hark 9 years ago
hark
Just to respond to some of the comments, and admit to some extent my ignorance of the system. I have not experienced the private school system, thus I must admit some of my judgements are uninformed, biased, and incorrect. Thank you for your corrections, as they are appreciated to strengthening weak-points within my argument.

I do not disapprove of religious schools, nor do I think that they should not be an option for students to pursue. It is however my thought that religion will detract from the learning experience, because it presents a strong bias, rather than an objective approach to teaching material.

For example, as is evidenced by you yourself Evan, through lack luster spelling and misuse of terminology. We can surmise one of two things from this evidence. First that your education may have been sub-par, or that you have other reasons for these errors. If the latter is the case, then I apologize, but if the former is the case, then my point is quite clear.

I do not think religious education should be banned or prohibited, however, it should not detract from public education for the sake of its own survival. This breeches separation of church and state. As Preacher Fred stated people want an affordable way to send their children to school without paying double(am I right?), and perhaps some conditions should allow for leniency as to this case. However, vouchers do not make any such allotment for persons other that more well off individuals.

There are two things that should be evident from these statements:
1) Religious education does present secular viewpoints, but may misconstrue their contents, and detract from the overall experience and objective consideration by students. People should learn to decide what they believe without too many nudges from religion.

2) Vouchers do not do what they promise. Well, I would write more, but I have reached the character limit, so I must stop here...

No offense to you Evan if I insulted/offended!
Posted by PreacherFred 9 years ago
PreacherFred
I came from a lower middle class family. I began working at the age of 12 and worked to put myself through a Catholic High School. Hark, while you state "School vouchers are generally touted as a method by which the poor can opt to send their children to private schools" the reasoning behind school vouchers is that parents who send their children to any private school are not afforded any of the portion of their taxes that are allocated to the public school system.
Posted by Evan_MacIan 9 years ago
Evan_MacIan
I go to a Catholic school, and you still don't seem to be quite right in your perception of religious education.
You seem to believe that having a cross in most of the rooms somehow detracts from education. This view is incorrect, and borders on being bigotted.

***Sarcasm begins here***
You will be shocked to learn that my history, math, science, English, Spanish, and debate books are all secular. Amazingly, praying for a few moments before many (not all) of my classes has not irreparably impaired my ability to think (though it probably has settled down many of my classmates before class actually begins). And quite ironically, the motive force behind my independent study of philosophy (I am about to read Nietzche and Roussou) is actually my religious conviction and a desire to understand that was a awakened by my expirience with Catholic authors such as G.K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc.
Of course, religion does occassionally cross into other subjects. At the beginning of physics this year, we read a paper from JPII about how science and religion can not truely contradict, and how the Church has to duty of being informed by and keeping up to date on the advances of science (from which we get Natural Family Planning, a moral alternative to contraception). We have not breached the topic of religion since, but one trespass was enough, right?
Obviously, you are correct. My parents tax dollars should not go towards what they want me taught. It is clearly detrimental to my education. I would have been much better off at a public school, even if my school's scores are some of the highest in the state.

***And just so you know, the tuition of every student at my school is paid for by their parish, so we aren't just a bunch of rich white kids. We have a large population of Mexicans and Vietnamese as well. And our teachers HOPE to be paid what public school teachers get paid. You can't just throw money at a problem.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
I am not saying if I agree with school vouchers or not , I have not decided completely .... However I am so upset with some of the stuff said in this debate. Let me clear up some things for both sides , but mostly Hark. RICH WHITE KIDS go to private schools. ummmmm , depends where you live. I went to a private Catholic high school and I was not rich. I am obviously white , however , my school was not just rich white kids. A little bit less than 1/2 the school was Black, Asian, Hispanic. And many kids white or not were not rich ... That is such a stereotype. I had many friends without money , many parents got financial aid to send their children there. Many work 2 or 3 jobs to send their children there.Many of the students work to help contribute to the cost. Some kids get scholarships. Many do work study to earn financial aid, I certainly did. To say that it is mostly rich white kids , is so ignorant. Some parents find religious education to be important. In Scotland you have 3 types of school , Catholic, protestant and Public and they are actually implementing a Muslim school as well. they don't have a Jewish school as they do not have a big Jewish population there. All these schools are free and government run and all the kids wear uniforms and guess what IT works .. There is no ridiculous fighting over whats allowed , whats okay , whats not , who said this and who can say that. No frivolous lawsuits over stupid things like the word God being said in a sentence. So although I haven't made up my mind on how I feel yet ..I am very insulted by youre assumption that its only rich white kids that go to private schools. The reason so many poor kids can go is the alumnae does so well in school and recieves such a great education they go on to make great money and donate money back to the school and it is used to help kids with the grades but the lack of money to attend.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by U.n 11 months ago
U.n
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.
Vote Placed by Thoreau 9 years ago
Thoreau
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by tarsjake 9 years ago
tarsjake
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by PreacherFred 9 years ago
PreacherFred
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by NSG 9 years ago
NSG
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by kgarner 9 years ago
kgarner
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by hark 9 years ago
hark
policydebategodharkTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03