The Instigator
salmongirl17
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
funnycn
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

School bands are essential for successful students

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
funnycn
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/11/2014 Category: Music
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 664 times Debate No: 63069
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (3)

 

salmongirl17

Pro

I say that school bands, such as marching, jazz, and concert bands are essential for students to succeed. I have found that students feel socially welcome in band, which allows them to be more confident in many things they never thought they could really do because of all of the peer pressure and bullying in middle and high schools in this day and age. Because they are in band, and because they are confident and feel safe in this social group, band kids are also more likely to get better grades in school. Students in band learn life lessons about fairness, disciplining yourself, patience, how to treat others with respect, to never give up, to love yourself no matter what anyone else says, that you have rights and have a say in your choices, and that you are unique in every way.
funnycn

Con

My Opponent's BoP I assume is that to be successful, you must be in a marching band, jazz band, or some form of band in school.

My BoP is to prove that someone can be successful without the need of band.

Let's get started...

Rebuttal
" I have found that students feel socially welcome in band, which allows them to be more confident in many things they never thought they could really do because of all of the peer pressure and bullying in middle and high schools in this day and age. Because they are in band, and because they are confident and feel safe in this social group, band kids are also more likely to get better grades in school"

Without sources, you can't prove that kids in band don't get bullied, get higher grades, and are more confident. On top of that, it's a fallacy.


"Students in band learn life lessons about fairness, disciplining yourself, patience, how to treat others with respect, to never give up, to love yourself no matter what anyone else says, that you have rights and have a say in your choices, and that you are unique in every way."

I don't see how. What about depressed, rude, selfish, hating, impatient band players. Yet again, another fallacy. I knew people in band that were complete jerks.
Now my argument.

Argument
i. My claim is one does not need to be in band to be successful.

At most if not all high schools, you do not need to be in band to graduate and to be successful. Anyone has the potential to be successful without the need of band in their life.

Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard and is still successful. If someone can drop out of a prestigious private university and still make billions, they can live without band.
Debate Round No. 1
salmongirl17

Pro

I am arguing the opinion of my opponent, who's claim is that band is not a necessity to be successful.

"At most if not all high schools, you do not need to be in band to graduate and to be successful. Anyone has the potential to be successful without the need of band in their life."

Argument: You may not need to be in band to graduate, but colleges nowadays are becoming very picky over all of the programs and organizations you were in as a student. You may need to have been in band in order to get into a good college.

"Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard and is still successful. If someone can drop out of a prestigious private university and still make billions, they can live without band."

Argument: Bill Gates was a genius, not the average student. He didn't need to go to college to be successful. I researched Bill Gates' high school and it said: "Seattle's most elite private school, Lakeside... Full arts program with drama, various choruses, various band including jazz band, chamber orchestra". Bill may have been affected by his peers who were in the band and other music programs to convince him to succeed.

"I don't see how. What about depressed, rude, selfish, hating, impatient band players. Yet again, another fallacy. I knew people in band that were complete jerks."

Argument: There are many kids in bands who are like that. They are the ones who do not sincerely care about their band life and are typically exclude themselves from the band life. They honestly do not care about band and are simply doing it because 1. Their parents forced them to join and they'd rather be on the football field actually playing the game 2. They are doing band simply for the college and school benefits.

I will say this much: band teaches kids, like regular school classes. But like school classes, it is the student's choice to remember and use the information they learned in school or not. As I had previously said that they learn life lessons about being fair and disciplining themselves, it is completely their option as to follow this path or not. However, kids who never learned these qualities will obviously not be educated to lead a successful life.
funnycn

Con

"You may not need to be in band to graduate, but colleges nowadays are becoming very picky over all of the programs and organizations you were in as a student. You may need to have been in band in order to get into a good college."

My opponent has conceded thus, forfeiting the debate. The BoP was "I say that school bands, such as marching, jazz, and concert bands are essential for students to succeed"
By using context clues, I can assume for students to succeed means for the students to pass and graduate high school, middle school,or college. My opponent has just said you may not need to be in a band anymore, thus denying the claim as earlier mentioned.

On another note, provide a source of a college or school that requires you to have band education. Note, that not what you can learn in college but an actual college.

" Bill Gates was a genius, not the average student. He didn't need to go to college to be successful. I researched Bill Gates' high school and it said: "Seattle's most elite private school, Lakeside... Full arts program with drama, various choruses, various band including jazz band, chamber orchestra". Bill may have been affected by his peers who were in the band and other music programs to convince him to succeed."

Provide the source, otherwise you are making it up.

""I don't see how. What about depressed, rude, selfish, hating, impatient band players. Yet again, another fallacy. I knew people in band that were complete jerks."

Argument: There are many kids in bands who are like that"

My opponent has conceded once again. The original claim was,
" Students in band learn life lessons about fairness, disciplining yourself, patience, how to treat others with respect, to never give up, to love yourself no matter what anyone else says,"

However they just admit that they are aware of the many jerks in band, even though the claim was they learned how to be nice and show respect.

The defintion of learn is "to gain knowledge or skill by studying, practicing, being taught, or experiencing something"
[http://www.merriam-webster.com...]

If most of the students are "learning" about respect, most of them would be nice instead of rude correct?

"However, kids who never learned these qualities will obviously not be educated to lead a successful life."

Let's see here...


There are rude people who were/are very successful. A good example is Alfred Hitchcock. He was rude, mean, aggressive, and harsh on the actors he worked with when directing movies. However, his movies made him rather wealthy.
[http://en.wikipedia.org...]

So let's toss this into a scenario...

Alfred Hitchcock is rude and doesn't show much respect to the actors.

According to my opponent's claims, Alfred Hitchcock is now unsuccessful and uneducated.

However, Alfre Hitchcock was rich from the movies he made, thus making him successful in a more realistic sense.

According to my opponent's claims, if you never learned how to be fair, respectful, etc. you won't succeed however Alfred Hitchock just proved them wrong.
Debate Round No. 2
salmongirl17

Pro

"Bill Gates was a genius, not the average student. He didn't need to go to college to be successful. I researched Bill Gates' high school and it said: "Seattle's most elite private school, Lakeside... Full arts program with drama, various choruses, various band including jazz band, chamber orchestra". Bill may have been affected by his peers who were in the band and other music programs to convince him to succeed."

My quote does indeed have a source:[http://www.democraticunderground.com...]

Okay, so to get on with the debate...

My opponent argued: "There are rude people who were/are very successful. A good example is Alfred Hitchcock. He was rude, mean, aggressive, and harsh on the actors he worked with when directing movies. However, his movies made him rather wealthy." Once again, my opponent is using a celebrity who everyone knows very well. However, my opponent never states that Alfred Hitchcock was/wasn't in any band programs to make him act rudely towards other actors. To prove my point, I will also present a celebrity who can be proven to have been in a school band and performing arts program, as a child, Jennifer Lawrence.

"...Lawrence's band teacher at Kammerer, Amanda Cornish, says she'll never forget the blonde teen who "sat in the very front row, right in the middle" and played the oboe. Jennifer was always vivacious, full of energy, full of laughter. She had an awesome humor about her even as a young kid,' Cornish said...Charlie Sexton, artistic director at Walden Theatre, worked with Lawrence when she was an eighth-grader. During the group's April 2005 spring showcase performance, 'In Celebration of Shakespeare,' she played Desdemona from 'Othello'. The thing I remember about her was how determined she was." Source: [http://www.usatoday.com...]

Jennifer Lawrence is a highly looked-upon role-model because she is kind, friendly, generous, and talented. Alfred Hitchcock was a talented celebrity also, but he was not kind, friendly or generous, and was instead "rude, mean, aggressive, and harsh" according to my opponent.

My argument: My opponent seems to be forgetting about the topic entirely. This is about band, and whether or not BAND makes you successful or not. My opponent says that "there are rude people who were/are very successful". Of course there are, like Alfred Hitchcock, who may not have been in band, or been inspired by school band.
funnycn

Con

"My quote does indeed have a source"

It does not however say he was involved in any of those things, thus you can't prove his success comes from being in a band.

Also, it's a politically biased website. Not that it matters too much.

"Once again, my opponent is using a celebrity who everyone knows very well. However, my opponent never states that Alfred Hitchcock was/wasn't in any band programs to make him act rudely towards other actors"

But I thought bands taught everyone about friendship. Thus, if he wasn't in a band according to your claims, he would be unsucessful for not learning about respect, however he was very successful. Your claim, is false.

"To prove my point, I will also present a celebrity who can be proven to have been in a school band and performing arts program, as a child, Jennifer Lawrence."

While you can prove she was in a band, can you prove she is nice? No, donating to charity does NOT count. A rude, selfish, and disrespectful person can donate to charity and come off as "nice". Do you see my point?

"Jennifer Lawrence is a highly looked-upon role-model because she is kind, friendly, generous, and talented. Alfred Hitchcock was a talented celebrity also, but he was not kind, friendly or generous, and was instead "rude, mean, aggressive, and harsh" according to my opponent."

Alfred Hitchock is the "Master" of suspense, and very sucessful. Well, was very successful. Regardless, your claims about not learning how to respect and showing respect does not apply to Alfred as he was harsh. Don't believe me that he was harsh?
"I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle."
[http://www.brainyquote.com...]

" My opponent seems to be forgetting about the topic entirely. This is about band, and whether or not BAND makes you successful or not. My opponent says that "there are rude people who were/are very successful". Of course there are, like Alfred Hitchcock, who may not have been in band, or been inspired by school band."

I did not forget the topic. Your claims included to be successful you MUST be in a band AND respectful, fair, nice, etc,.
I am arguing against those claims, that one does NOT need to be in a band and be respectful, fair, nice, etc. to be successful.

It's rather silly to believe you MUST be in a band to be successful anyways. As mentioned earlier, Bill Gates was not in a band yet he is successful and claiming he was "influenced" by one is a shot in a dark anyways.
Debate Round No. 3
salmongirl17

Pro

salmongirl17 forfeited this round.
funnycn

Con

My opponent forfeit. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
salmongirl17

Pro

salmongirl17 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by republicofdhar 2 years ago
republicofdhar
salmongirl17funnycnTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: This was a strange debate. Pro seemed to forget that she had the burden of proof and went on to make some very conjectural points. "Bill may have been affected by his peers who were in the band and other music programs to convince him to succeed" is one of the most far fetched points I've read on a debate yet. Either way, it was entertaining.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
salmongirl17funnycnTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by AbandonedSpring 2 years ago
AbandonedSpring
salmongirl17funnycnTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: This was kind of a weird debate, but it was interesting