The Instigator
AbandonedSpring
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Voxol
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Schools are entitled to student searches. regardless of a warrant

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
AbandonedSpring
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/18/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,230 times Debate No: 63486
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

AbandonedSpring

Pro

I believe that schools are entitled to check students for contraband or weapons, so long as they do not go too in-depth with searches. For example: a school should be aloud to search cars in the school parking lot, however they should not be allowed to strip search students.

1st round: agreement
2nd round: argue
3rd round: Rebuttals
4th round: Conclusions
Voxol

Con

Debate accepted
Debate Round No. 1
AbandonedSpring

Pro

Hello, and thanks for accepting my debate!

I am going to organize my argument on three contingencies, labels alphabetically.

But first, I would like to proved some simple definitions that suit the overall topic.

Civic Virtue: "Civic virtue is the cultivation of habits of personal living that are claimed to be important for the success of the community."
Fairness: "lack of favoritism toward one side or another"

Now that definitions are out of the way, I will start my first point by applying these definitions to my argument. Under my definition of "civic virtue", sacrifices must be made for the overall good of a community. For a school to be able to strive for success, the environment has to feel safe, and/or danger-free. Therefore, civiv virtue in the school campus would uphold the millions of tax dollars given to public schools each year. Also, under my definition of fairness, since the school is to show no discrimination to the body they are searching, then everyone is being searched fairly. Now I don't believe that searches should be a regular thing, only that when a school has reason to believe something is going on, they should have the right to act in an appropriate manner.

For my second contingency, I would like to point out the safety measure. Schools have to be able to search a student, or a students possessions in a time of suspicion. For example, the school ought to have the right to search students lockers. A multitude of things can be put in student lockers, and they are basically the schools property anyways. But schools simply do not have time to go to the courthouse, and obtain a warrant, if they have suspicion a student is plotting something.

Finally, I would like to give a few examples. for student-athletes, drug searches/tests are a huge thing, for understandable reasons. If an athlete is taking drugs/steroids, then they have an advantage over the rest of the population (depending on the type of drug. Obviously Crack will not allow for an athlete to preform in his prime!) Now, for my final example.

For my closing statement, I would also like to bring up some points I believe you might bring up, so I will save you some time and effort.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I am going to focus on the part where it talks about unreasonable searches. If a bullet is found in the hallway, the school has "reason" to search students.

Thank you, I am finished

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Voxol

Con

Voxol forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
AbandonedSpring

Pro

Vote Pro!
Voxol

Con

(Sorry for forfeiting last round, I will put my rebuttals in the next round)

Safety Vs. Liberty has always been an issue, especially at schools. I believe that schools should obtain a warrant though before searching a students property for the following reasons:

A. Allowing schools to search a student's property (Not a locker) gives school administrators unrestricted access to a student's possessions. A system must be in place to limit or oversee what these administrators are doing, and by obtaining a warrant, a 3rd party can do this. Without this system in place I can see administrators abusing this power.

B. School administrators cannot alone determine if a search of a student's personal property is "Reasonable". Like I said in my first reason, a 3rd party (Judge) must be involved in the decision. The school administrator cannot act as judge in this decision.
Debate Round No. 3
AbandonedSpring

Pro

Alright, let's get started.

You have only one point, but have two arguments to back it up, so I will thoroughly examine your arguments.

"Safety Vs. Liberty has always been an issue, especially at schools. I believe that schools should obtain a warrant though before searching a students property for the following reasons:

A. Allowing schools to search a student's property (Not a locker) gives school administrators unrestricted access to a student's possessions. A system must be in place to limit or oversee what these administrators are doing, and by obtaining a warrant, a 3rd party can do this. Without this system in place I can see administrators abusing this power."

Okay, since you did not provide an example, I will substitute my own. Let's just say, a purse. Let's suppose a teacher had a reason to suspect that a student was hiding a pistol in their purse. Do you understand how long it takes to obtain a search warrant? Now, she you have the opportunity to seize the bag, but you can't take it because you must get a warrant first. Also, the entire class, that you were responsible for, is now dead. Also, a third party? Ain't nobody got time for that.

Next, "B. School administrators cannot alone determine if a search of a student's personal property is "Reasonable". Like I said in my first reason, a 3rd party (Judge) must be involved in the decision. The school administrator cannot act as judge in this decision."

Who cares? If your lip balm is mistaken for a bullet, and a teacher asks you to take it out, who cares? This really only effects students who are thinking about committing a crime. Next, you provided no reason why and administrator could not act as a judge. The Admins are there to provide for the general welfare of the student body, which is similar to the job of the judge.

I'm extremely surprised you did not bring constitutionality into this case, so I will go ahead and just go ahead and debunk this.

New Jersey v. T.L.O. (1985)
The teacher had suspicion, and acted on instinct. She caught the student with the pot, and she was removed. Had this been a firearm, that teacher could have saved students lives.

teachers do not have the right to just go through students belongings, however they do have a right to protect the student body. If we must sacrifice liberty for safety, then even the supreme court agrees with me that it is necessary

Thank you, I am finished.
Voxol

Con

Voxol forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Voxol 2 years ago
Voxol
Sorry about all the forfeits, I am not used to 24 hr limits.
Posted by AbandonedSpring 2 years ago
AbandonedSpring
I am a student, so I see these things first hand. While I can say that I know my rights, I also recognize that I don't necessarily lose my rights when I go to school. They might be suppressed a bit, but I know I still have them.
Posted by StarHunter 2 years ago
StarHunter
I hate the idea that students are a lower class of citizen while on school grounds. Schools are supposed to produce informed citizens. How can they do that when they tell students one thing, but they do another? The only message that sends is that the state is capricious and rights are only for privileged citizens, i.e. the 1%.
Posted by AbandonedSpring 2 years ago
AbandonedSpring
There have been several supreme court cases that go back on forth on the issue. Typically, the ruling comes down to the degree of search and seizure. For example, New Jersey v. T.L.O, a landmark case decided that because it was something so simply as her purse, and the school had reason to search. However cases like Tinker v. Des Moines (1969), (which was NOT a case on the fourth amendment, rather on the 1st) Justice Abe Fortas said, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

This would include ALL constitutional rights, and therefor including the 4th amendment. However, there is so much speculation, that it makes for an interesting debate!
Posted by justiceandtruth 2 years ago
justiceandtruth
New Jersey v. T.L.O settled this
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
AbandonedSpringVoxolTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture