Schools dress codes should be better enforced
Debate Rounds (5)
I accept. I'll be arguing that schools should enforce the dress code as they see fit. I'll first respond to her argument than construct my own.
His/Her Argument: People are inconsistent in applying the standard
Like, if anything you're argument sounds like a rant against a specific teacher/coach than against the rule in general. If that's the case, I'm sorry that this is something that happened to you, but really that's not a problem with how the rule is being enforced, but rather who's enforcing it. And that's not something you can fix by changing the rule itself.
Neg Argument One: Impossibility
I understand that you can't chase every girl/boy down with a ruler but the teachers should look at what the students are wearing in their class room. If they have rules that aren't enforced they should just get rid of them.
I'm just gonna start out by responding to her newer arguments then extending out my responses that she dropped.
Her Argument: Distraction
Her Argument: Makes girls feel bad because the rule isn't being applied when it should be
With that let's go to my arguments.
First, she entirely drops the impossibility argument, saying that the dress code rule is impossible to actually objectively enforce. This si because a) what people consider too short and too long is entirely subjective, b) there's no brightline on how "strict" we should make the rule, and c) even if we make it stricter, that doesn't actually solve the problem.
The most important parts here are a) and c). a) is what is causing the problems my opponent complains about. The inherent subjectivity of what we consider to be a violation causes wrong applications of the rules. This means that fixing a) --- i.e. making people not subjective (ignoring for a moment that this isn't possible to do) --- actually fixes the problem, not by changing the rule.
c) is also important because even if we do what she's asking us to do, we don't actually fix any of the problems. The reason for that is because a) is the actual problem here, not the dress code. She's trying to fix the dress code, not trying to fix a).
(1) - http://www.theguardian.com...;
Even though a girl is sitting down doesn't mean her butt isn't showing. The process of checking the short length wouldn't be obnoxious like the skirt length checking, it would be quick. If the butt is out of the shorts then the teacher would ask them to change.
I'd love it if pro could use a different link to the article she's trying to reference. It's being taken from a database that I don't have access to.
I want to touch on a few key things before we go into the specific responses to her previous round.
To begin with, I want to reference my argument that the entire policy of asking someone to change into something more "acceptable" if their choice of clothing doesn't meet the "standards" is what's known as "slut-shaming". She directly links into slut-shaming when she starts talking about "If the butt is out of the shorts then the teacher would ask them to change.". It's effectively demeaning the girls---and it's specficially girls, since guys are never the targets of this kind of policy---and harms their self-worth. This was touched on in the previous source I linked in the last round. Slut-shaming is going to have multiple impacts on education ins chools, and thus the round.
None of this was ever responded to, and thus a reason to not allow the clothing policy to become any stricter/harsher.
Also, for the second round in a row, she never responds to the argument I make about how trying to ojectively enforce the policy isn't possible, thus making it stricter doesn't actually solve for anything. If it doesn't solve for anything, then there's no reason to do it.
Now to respond to her specific arguments.
She wrote: "It would help if parents cared what their child wears."
She wrote: "Even though a girl is sitting down doesn't mean her butt isn't showing."
Again, my opponent makes no resonse as to how enforcing the policy "better" isn't actually possible to do because of the inherent subjectivity to it, as well as enforcing it "better" has no kind of brightline as to what constitutes "better". This means that it's impossible to actually do what she wants to do, meaning there's no reason to waste our time trying to do something impossible.
Also, she tries to leverage the feeling of "having to change when someone else doens't have to" as something thats bad, but the harms of that don't even compare to the harms of slut-shaming, which was touched on in the other article. She's not warranting a) how this is actually harmful to people, or b) why it's worse than slut-shaming. But even if they are comparable, I'm the only one attempting to even sovle for the real problem (that she even admits) which is the bias from the people who are enforcing the rule, and not the rule itself.
This is where my opponent and I are differing. We both are agreeing that the current state of affairs is bad. However she's advocating that we change the nature of the rule or policy to be better enforced, which I'm arguing isn't actually possible to achieve.
I, on the other hand, am advocating that we go to the source of the problem, the teachers and admins enforcing the policy, and get them to learn exactly what they should be talking and not talking about so that the bias is minimized or taken away entirely. She's yet to respond to this throughout the entire debate execpt to agree that this is a problem, yet not one she's trying to solve.
Until my opponent finally decides to respond to my arguments for once instead of just trying to repeat herself over and over again, I really don't have anything left to say.
http://plshs.paplv.org... (page 36-37)
If enforcing the dress code is "harmful to people" then maybe students will actually look at what they are wearing before they walk out the door so they don't get hurt. Maybe if the student followed the guidelines they wouldn't get hurt.
"Changing the nature of the rule or policy to be better enforce" is possible to achieve. Teachers have power to tell the student change. They could tell them "Excuse me but what you are wearing is not appropriate for school go to the front office and change." Simple as that. But yet my opponent says it is impossible to do so. I didn't know that it is impossible to open up your mouth and say no to kids who always get their way.
How is telling a student to change impossible? I have seen many teachers tell other students to change but then look the other way when a popular person breaks the rule. If only the teachers would stop being biased and actually enforce the rule that has no meaning of being in the handbook if it isn't enforced.
She attempts to (finally) respond to my impossibility argument, but misses the point again. It doesn't matter if it's possible for teachers to tell people to change because I never made the argument that they couldn't. My argument was that objectively enforcing a clothing policy would be impossible without arming every teacher with a ruler and having them check every student. Since practically that isn't really feasible without creating a massive disruption in the school day, it's going to be based in the same subjective problems that, if what the comments are talking about are anywhere near true, caused my opponent to want to do this debate in the first place.
So since my opponent misunderstood my point, I'm going to repeat it (again), just to make sure that it's extra, extra, extra clear.
The only way to avoid the harms of slut-shaming and things like unfair applications of the rule is to find a completely objective way to enforce the rule. The only problem with this, though, is that it's just not feasible or even possible to do within the constraints of the school day. This means that you have to place the onus of enforcement on Coach Whatshisface, which is always going to be subjective. This keeps the door open for possible mistakes to continually be made simply exhaust it isn't possible for humans to be 100% objective. This means tha even if we get all "Rah rah! Fair enforcement if the clothing policy! Rah!", nothing will actually change. It's still going to be done through the subjective teachers and coaches, which means it will have the same problems as before.
The only ways to solve for this problem is to not enforce the rule (which my opponent doesn't advocate for and which supports my position), or find a different way to enforce the rule (something my opponent never advocates for and something that still supports my position). So no matter how you look at it, I'm winning on this issue, and you vote for me because of it.
She brings up how there are clear guidelines on what passes and what doesn't pass the policy so it's something that we can actually enforce, but that doesn't address the fact that it's still the teachers and coaches that are trying to apply those guidelines, which is what's creating the problem we're debating about in the first place.
Since this is the final round, I'm going to summarize the reasons why you're voting for me in this debate:
1. She's not doing any kind of work to respond to how because the teachers applying this rule are subjective and prone to making mistakes, that it's not reall possible to actually create "better enforcement".
2. Even if she is somehow showing that we can better enforce this (and if you're going to take this line of logic I'd love for you show me where she does this), I'm bringing into question why we should even be enforcing this in the first place from a) the harms of things like slut-shaming and it's impact on kids education and desire to learn and b) the truth that clothing really doesn't have that big of an impact on classroom attention and that any kind of "distraction" is really overstated.
I thank my opponent for debating this with me and ask the voters to vote con.
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