The Instigator
SinceWhen
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
vmpire321
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

Schools should have the power to pat, search, or drug test any student at any random time.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
vmpire321
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/22/2011 Category: Education
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,061 times Debate No: 19423
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (4)

 

SinceWhen

Pro

Should a school have the power to search a suspicious student or even do random drug tests if they feel there is a problem at the school. Is it an invasion of privacy? Do they need a permit? Will it become a racial problem?
vmpire321

Con

I thank my opponent for being here! :D i was waiting for a debate....

Well first off! I'd like to rebudle pro's arguments.

Pro said " Is it an invasion of privacy?"

Well...According to http://dictionary.reference.com...
The definitions of PRIVACY are:

  1. the state of being private; retirement or seclusion..the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one's private life or affairs
  2. secrecy.
  3. Archaic . a private place.
Now if you walked into school one day.... And a teacher turned a corner and started patting his hands all over you....Or if he grabbed your backpack and searched through everything. Yes this is a violation of a person's privacy.


Pro said " Do they need a permit? "

Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

Well.... According the the 4th amendment, yes, they do need a warrant/permit to search through things if it's reasonable. The police are bound by this rule... Why shouldn't the schools be too?


Pro said "Will it become a racial problem?"

If teachers choose to....Then yes, it can become a racial problem.. As well as a classist and sexist problem.
Teachers can abuse these powers and inflict embarrassment/pain on students they do not like. Do racist teachers exist? More than probable. The same with sexism and classism.

How can they cause embarrassment?
Often times, students do not carry illegal stuff, but rather have embarrassing things in their possession. For example, porn or love letters. This negative action can cause many problems with the student.
For example..
1. Bullying
2. Constant abuse
3. Other students could be influenced by the teacher and engage with them in bullying this student.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOW ONTO MY OWN ARGUMENTS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By subjecting students to the constant risk of a search.....

You.

1) Isolation. Searches remove and destroy their thought that they have a secure point. This only increases the sense of isolation, which can increase psychological problems at that school.

2) Single out students. When you single out someone for a search, you are publicly accusing them of crime. This destroys and teacher/student trust bond they have and can actually lead to more dislike.

3) Invasion of Privacy. Like I stated before, the Fourth Amendment says that you must have a probable cause and a warrant to search someone. By allowing schools to do this without the need to go and try to gain a warrant, you give schools too much power. Even the police have these limits put on them -- they cannot simply go charging in a house on a whim, because they think their might be criminal activity.

4) Embarrassment. I've already covered this matter above... But still, we cannot ignore the fact that biased teachers can abuse this to their benefit and destroy students that they dislike.

I await your response...!





Debate Round No. 1
SinceWhen

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate.

Firstly, in a school environment privacy is only limited to:
Bodily privacy (Private parts)
and
Mental and Emotional privacy (Do not have to answer questions nor do you have to support any religion or group)

That's it!

Embarrassment and Singling out are worthless because embarrassment happens even when an adult gets searched and it is just a feeling of the person, it will not effect the search or test in anyway. Race is not applicable because there will always be racial profiling whether it is in schools, with it without a permit, or even with a 7 yr old boy or a 27 yr old man. If the teacher feels that person should be searches they get searched. It shouldn't matter of their race.
vmpire321

Con

I thank my opponent for their response.

==Dropped Arguments==

My opponent failed to rebudle these following arguments, which means that they concede to it.

1) Abuse by teachers: With this right, teachers with personal vendettas against students will seize this right and pat, search, or drug test a student and try to cause as much damage as possible. I've already explained about how these searches can cause embarrassment and promote bullying. I've also talked about how teachers can single out and publicly accuse someone. Con does try to argue against this, but con's arguments are flawed. I will explain more about how their arguments against me are false and invalid and why my contentions on the negative effects that searches cause on students still stand.

2) Isolation: Con fails to address this completely, and doesn't even mention this in his rebuttal. He completely ignores the fact that searches can destroy a student's sense of privacy and security, which only increases isolation and psychological problems. Why does this matter? Trauma that occurs at school can live with a student forever, and increase the chances of them becoming violent criminals. School shootings happen due to students that are fed up with bullying and similar aggressive acts. Almost all of these shooters have psychological problems and experience bullying of some sort.

==Rebuttals==

Pro says..."Firstly, in a school environment privacy is only limited to:
Bodily privacy (Private parts)
and
Mental and Emotional privacy (Do not have to answer questions nor do you have to support any religion or group)"

1) I'm personally confused by what Pro is driving at when he/she makes this kind of argument. How can you "pat" someone without violating some bodily privacy? The effectiveness of searches would be ****, since students can simply hide whatever they are concealing in "private areas." Furthermore, Pro goes on to say that students "...Do not have to answer questions..." This I find failing to make any logical sense. School officials are allowed to search, pat, and drug test students, but they are not allowed to question them? I ask PRO to clarify what their stance is, and how, in any way, does stating what privacy students have support their side?

However... If they are saying that students should not be given bodily privacy nor mental/emotion privacy....

Pro is denying any students the Fourth Amendment, and even the most basic rights. The Supreme Court requires officials to have somewhere around a moderate chance of finding evidence of wrongdoing or criminal activities.

For example... According to http://www.outsidethebeltway.com......
The Supreme Court found that Arizona school officials went too far in strip-searching a 13-year-old student who they believed might have provided ibuprofen to another student. Given the intrusiveness and of the search and the relatively low threat posed, the search was unreasonable and a violation of the Fourth Amendment.

Pro said in their second argument that, "Embarrassment and Singling out are worthless because embarrassment happens even when an adult gets searched and it is just a feeling of the person, it will not effect the search or test in anyway. Race is not applicable because there will always be racial profiling whether it is in schools, with it without a permit, or even with a 7 yr old boy or a 27 yr old man. If the teacher feels that person should be searches they get searched. It shouldn't matter of their race."
However i find that this argument is also flawed.

1)Even if adults get embarrassed somewhat... We MUST consider and listen to the voices and opinions of students. Just because some people can tolerate being searched, that does not justify it.

2)Furthermore, they are not seeing the true meaning of my argument. I am trying to show that when students are subjected to search, they experiance negative emotions and feeling. Teachers can purposely abuse this in order to embarrass, promote bullying, and psychologically destroy students that they dislike. Is this fair for the students? Is this healthy for school environments?

3) And Pro continues to explain why searches will not be affected by race. However, my arguments were about how racism will increase through searches. These arguments are completely different, and pro, once again, confuses my arguments. I said that racist teachers can use their powers and emotionally devastate students, just because of their race. Do racist teachers not exist? Is this not simply more severe racism?

4) Pro says that "..If the teacher feels that person should be searches they get searched." However...Is this truely justifiable? Consider my previous example. Strip searching a 13-year-old even though the threat was so low? This can be compared to shooting a man for explicit language. The response was simply too drastic and unreasonable. There are standerd procedures.

==New Arguments==

**
Note: I'm pressed for time...so i'll only have one new contention to present....

1) Unpopularity: Student searches are already unpopular enough, with parents willing to sue if their children complain enough. By giving this right to schools, we are simply asking for challenges made by students and their parents. Do we truely want this to happen? Schools exist for students and they should listen to the students. The degradation and loss of dignity that can occur through searches simply will bring too much unpopularity.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I await my opponents response. :D!


Debate Round No. 2
SinceWhen

Pro

I would like to point out that ALL my opponents points are wrong because of one thing:

Comparison!

When discussing why or why not something should happen in a school environment you have to bring into consideration what would happen if you got in that same situation as an adult. All the things you pointed out can/have/and will happen in situations other than with students. Meaning that you are just pointing out things wrong with privacy in general rather than privacy in school. Your rebuttals also had nothing to do with my statements. You breifly touched my statements and failed to give any significance why your statement is more reliable or true than yours.
vmpire321

Con

I thank my opponent for their quick response! Sorry mine took so long.

==REBUTTALS==
Pro said "When discussing why or why not something should happen in a school environment you have to bring into consideration what would happen if you got in that same situation as an adult."
1) How is this even relevant to this topic? WE are talking about students and school environments. Students and adults live in completely different worlds. For example, it is perfectly reasonable a student would get in trouble with a teacher. Do adults have problems with teachers? Students learn everything from teachers. Do adults learn from teachers? Teachers have almost complete control over students. Do teachers have control over other adults? No.

Pro also said that "All the things you pointed out can/have/and will happen in situations other than with students. Meaning that you are just pointing out things wrong with privacy in general rather than privacy in school."

1)...This shows that Pro agrees with me that the thing that i pointed do happen. Even if, this can happen with other people, that does not justify allowing searches. School environments should be a safe zone for children. Developing children who are not well acquainted to the world shouldn't be subjected to the same dangers as adults. Some children simply aren't mature or have the power to stand for themselves.

2) Abuse by teachers. These teachers do not have the same control over adults/other people. These situations only happen with teachers and students.

3) Name other searches in which this happens. In my main arguments about embarrassment, bullying, and similar negative things, all of these have teachers abusing this as the basis and cause. Now why is this only specific to school environments? Teachers spend alt of time with students, and this time can culminate in dislike. Say you visit an airport. Their are security checks you go through. Now those guards, the chances of you actually knowing one is extremely small. And even if they know and dislike you, you easily have the option of going to different guards to get checked. In other situtuations, the people who are doing the searches simply do not have the time to create any negative opinion about you.

Pro also said... "Your rebuttals also had nothing to do with my statements. You breifly touched my statements and failed to give any significance why your statement is more reliable or true than yours."

Well... This is going to take a very long time.

1a. You talked about how people only have bodily and mental/emotional privacy.
1b. I countered this by saying that... If you give someone bodily privacy, searches and pats are useless. I also said that if you give them the right to not answer any questions... It wouldn't make any logical sense. You can't question suspicious people but you can search them?
1c. I clearly broke your argument down and argued against everything.

2a. You said that embarrassment and singling out people also happens when adults get searched...And you also talked about how race isn't applicable to searches. And finally you said that because of those reasons, a teacher should have the right to say who gets searched.
2b. I said that...even if other people also get embarrassed, we still have to consider and listen to students. Adults and students are different. I also mentioned that my arguments were based around the fact that teachers can abuse this ability and destroy school environments. Finally, I talked about how you confused my racism argument. I stated that racism will increase do to searches. You were talking about that racism doesn't matter in searches. And finally, as a response to how teachers should have this right, I said that we can't give this right and trust the teachers.
2c. I don't see how I didn't respond to everything. Once again, I broke down your argument and made a solid case against it.

In conclusion, I did touch your statements and I showed how they were all invalid.

==DROPPED ARGUMENTS==
The following arguments PRO never directly responded to, which means they concede to them.

1) Unpopularity - They said nothing about my argument about how people will challenge this right, which means the concede and admit to this.

2) Isolation - Once again, even though I pointed this out, PRO did not try to respond to this. They admit that if we put pressure and take away privacy from students, we subject them to isolation and psychological problems. This leads to criminals and school shootings.

3)Embarrasment, Bullying, etc.- PRO does not even try to disprove that this will happen. They only try to say that "this happens in all searches" but I have stated that these situations will only happen in school environments, as teachers are the only people who will have any motivation to abuse their powers against students they dislike.


==COMPARISONS==


In conclusion...

My opponent has talked about:
1) Students should only have bodily and mental/emotional privacy. (I have stated why this does not make logical sense.)
2) How embarrassment, singling out, and etc will happen in outside situations. (I have stated why they are only specific to school environments)
3) How race shouldn't be a factor in searches. (I've talked about racist teachers, and sexism, and classism)


I've talked about:
1) The 4th Amendment: All people hBave rights. This amendment speaks for itself.
2) Teachers Abusing This: Biased teachers exist, along with racism, sexism, and classism. Furthermore, teachers often have students that they dislike. All of these factors can culminate in teachers abusing these powers to make students feel embarrassment, bullying, and other negative experiances.
3) Isolation: Students need a sense of security and privacy. This simply will put more mental strain and pressure on students, along with possible increases in bullying. More and more psychological problems will occur, and school shootings will also increase. Needless to say, this can also result in long-term trauma and turn people into violent criminals.
4)Unpopularity: I've stated that this new right to teachers will be met be unpopularity among students and parents. In a democratic government as ours, shouldn't we listen to the public?

==============================================

I thank my opponent for this debate...

Don't forget to vote CON!

Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
nah... >.<
Posted by SinceWhen 5 years ago
SinceWhen
Damn. Do you go nationals? Do u go for junior nfl? You are very good!!
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
well....Truth be told... ima 7th grader too...>.< but i go to high school tournaments. :D
Posted by SinceWhen 5 years ago
SinceWhen
Very good debate! Good strong points! I wasnt very prepped but you know. Vmpire are you a debater in school. High school I'm guessing... You are very good. I need some work because I am in the 7th grade and need to get ready for high school debate next year!
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
And now its time for the voting to start.
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
My responses take time...
Posted by renji_abarai 5 years ago
renji_abarai
I think they should get patted down
Posted by SinceWhen 5 years ago
SinceWhen
Or maybe you reply too slow.

:O
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
D:! YOu respond too quick lol
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
imo, children do have a few rights....
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by jm_notguilty 5 years ago
jm_notguilty
SinceWhenvmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: CON's args were far more supreme than PRO's and PRO dropped most of them.
Vote Placed by socialpinko 5 years ago
socialpinko
SinceWhenvmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con wins by a landslide. Not only did Pro completely drop Con's unpopularity argument, embarrassment argument, and his isolation argument, but his responses to the arguments he did response to were unsatisfactory. Con also showed the inevitable ineffectiveness of school pat downs if students are granted a pat-free zone and the fallacious equivocation of adults with students. Sources to Con for defining and for linking to actual cases involved in the issue.
Vote Placed by SquadSix 5 years ago
SquadSix
SinceWhenvmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:42 
Reasons for voting decision: Well I had to vote for both of you since vmpire321 did use sources but did make a mistake or two when typing his arguments, mainly near the end. When vmpire321 said "do adults learn from teachers?" to rebuttal against SinceWhen I had to go with Pro on the arguments since adults do learn from teachers and that is where I believe vmpire321 could have really used the sexist card, now the adults don't go to a kids school but they do go to school. Good job by both of you!
Vote Placed by XiaoFei98 5 years ago
XiaoFei98
SinceWhenvmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Con had better points and was more organized.