The Instigator
Jevinigh
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Wake_Island
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Science v. Politics

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/18/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 343 times Debate No: 49399
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

Jevinigh

Con

Scientific method has proved invaluable to humanity during its climb from the dark ages to the height of digital evolution. The time has come now for Science to further serve humanity as we face crisis on multiple fronts. Politics presents no answers. I will contend as con that Political system is obsolete and no longer adequate to serve 21st century needs. Pro will take the counter position, that our democratic systems of government is still the best system of government we can have.

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Structure
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Round 1: Acceptance & Brief introduction (1-2 paragraphs)
Round 2: Main argument
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4: Rebuttals
Round 5: Closing arguments
Wake_Island

Pro

Science can not exist without politics. Politics lead to funding of scientific endeavors like NASA and military projects.
Military throughout time has protected their countries way of life. Without the want to have a modern and advanced military which has been accomplished through science, their country and possibly their political system would be at risk.
Without a political system nothing can be accomplished because there would be a lack of direct funding for science due to anarchy.
We evolved through science funded through politics.
Debate Round No. 1
Jevinigh

Con


The Case against Political systems.

Political systems of government here are being defined as any system of government which makes decisions on methods or motives other than hard data and with intellectual methods other than logical,reasonable thought such as a Scientific method. To begin with I will dress down this political system that can commonly understood as a Democratic Republic. This debate is NOT about what the viability of the democratic system in the past, only about a Scientific system v. A political system of government going forward. - Sources will be located at the end of the post.

Exhibit A : Poverty

In our world today, nearly 80% of our global population lives on less than 10$ a day, most of them living in extreme poverty. Though it is the 21st century, Nearly a quarter of the world lacks access to even such a basic amenity as Electric power. Worse yet, 345 million people on this planet lack access to clean drinking water, killing 3.4 million people a year due to deceases related to dirty water. Millions more suffer from lack of nutrition.

To address this problem, Modern political systems including the economic systems they are attached to have expended massive amounts of effort and resources into making small impacts over the decades. Often measuring their efforts in millions spent rather than people fed or clean access to water gained. There is an even more insidious, While Millions starve and die from lack of water Industrial nations often throw away massive amounts of food because " It did not sell." even while many of their own people go hungry, food is thrown out and water is wasted on something such as a lawn. This process of the Political system is hypocritical,wasteful and frankly barbaric and leads us to the even more damning Exhibit B.

Exhibit B : Excess production

Modern methods of production are extremely wasteful, often using out dated technological methods and while Pro maybe tempted to point out that this issue is economic and not tied directly to the government, Pro would be wrong. To establish the economic and political systems are inseparable from each other I point first to the New deal. At a time when people where in bread lines starving you would assume that supply of food was short and demand was high there for not enough of it was going around but you here too would be wrong. There was so much food that farmers couldn't sell it at a reasonable price. We where literally throwing food away while people starved.

The reason for this among other things was the rapidly advancing technologies in agriculture. Food production was now far easier and far faster and required fractions of the labor as in previous generations. As part of the New deal, Crops and food producing animals where literally destroyed so and farmers paid not to farm, literally paid not to farm a practice that endures to this day. Even though there was a enough food for no one to go hungry at night and more- the Political system destroyed production capacity in order to justify the Price system. To this day, despite massive amounts of production excess- people go hungry from lack of monetary means. Both Globally and nationally- The Political system causes unnecessary hard ship and suffering. Which leads us to Exhibit C

Exhibit C : Profit at any cost.
The inescapable parasitic nature of economics and politics is most evident in the relationships between business and government. The two protect each other from meaningful change. Money flows freely behind closed doors and even overtly despite massive public unpopularity. The evidence is so plentiful that the challenge is to select just a few. Even choosing which examples of corruption,fraud and abuse that run rampant in the modern political systems is the most damning is a challenge. But lets go with the most hypocritical and blatant examples.

Corruption:
http://en.wikipedia.org... Designed to stop insider trading until they realized it ACTUALLY STOPED insider trading. http://www.huffingtonpost.com... The effective repeal of the Stock act passed UNANIMOUSLY. Seems they cant agree on paying bills, handling world issues or any such thing but they can all agree to line their own pockets.

Fraud:
Federal protection agencies and over sight committees are largely controlled by the industries they are suppose to over see, In the western world the Fox guards the hen house and no where is this more overt than in the United States.

FDA & Monsanto : http://ivn.us...

Federal reserve: A private financial institution issuing public money. This could be a whole topic on its own but lets highlight the insider nature. http://en.wikipedia.org... Look no further than good ol' Ben and his overt ties to Goldman Sachs. You can go backwards to Alan Greenspan and more, Janet yellen is perhaps the first truly good choice but she is too little too late and that's its own topic.




Science has the answer

If we cease to look at this as political problems, instead looking at as purely mechanical problem. The problems because easily solvable with modern technologies. These solutions require no political bodies. They are easily handled with out governments and we are going to see through this argument Governments in fact often hinder these efforts.

Poverty:

Solving the worlds Power Shortage.
(1) You are being lied to about the viability of Solar power : http://inhabitat.com...
(2) You are being lied to about the cost of renewable: http://www.rawstory.com...
(3) The Technology has advanced further than you are told : http://gizmodo.com...

So why don't you see these in use? Simple. They aren't profitable.
http://ipsnorthamerica.net...
http://www.treehugger.com...

Water:
http://water-alliance.org...
More efficient and sustainable systems are coming out in the "Market system" but slowly and at unnecessary expense.

Food:
Aquaponics: http://www.growingpower.org...
Hugely increased, organic yields with much smaller foot prints. Public use of these methods is being actively attacked by the political system: http://www.dailykos.com...#

Not a conspiracy: http://www.permanentculturenow.com...

These methods are not the only solutions, but they cut down massively on wasted resources in the unnecessary packaging and transport of goods. Further the methods of Hydroponics and Aquaponics use no pesticides, advantages of these systems are huge but once more step on many toes in the profit system.

A scientific system has no such concerns; as outlined by prominent societal engineer and Architect Jacque Fresco https://www.youtube.com...

Resource Based Economy ( RBE) is the system which uses science and technology to over come scarcities.
http://www.thevenusproject.com...
( Embedded video) : https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.theresourcebasedeconomy.com...
http://futurewewant.org...


The Bottom line: To sustain the global population, Only Scientific competence can meet our global demands demands. Political systems are not competent and not capable of meeting this demand.
Wake_Island

Pro

Your claim is that Modern political systems have small impacts on poverty and is wasteful due to excess production.

Modern political systems have supported humanitarian efforts throughout the world. Typhoon Haiyan which hit the Philippines gathered attention of the United States government and other countries which supported the effort to bring relief to the people. The governments are not the only one helping. private charities like the Red Cross have throughout history supported people in poverty and disasters.
https://www.redcross.org...
You have given no references showing the current governments can not be productive when it comes to Humanitarian relief in the 21st century

A study from fas.org has done research on the relief efforts for Typhoon Haiyan which has shown the progress of Political systems and private charities have made in the recovery of the Philippines.
http://www.fas.org...

Your second argument is that governments create excess production.
Blaming excess production solely on the government is silly.
Have you ever bought 10 boxes of cereal but only finish seven before three go stale?
I am sure you have. This is a problem the consumer has made. consumers are wasteful, we don't eat everything on out plate every time.
The government does not run all relief, energy and infrastructure companies like BP, Waste Management, ATAT. political systems only regulate them.
During the early 20th century Farmers made so much food that is bombed the price forcing the government to stabilize the market. https://en.wikipedia.org... Money is needed to fund scientific projects and keep out economy in balance.

Currency is created by our governments and we need money to live, invest and research new projects which enforces my stance on why we need a political system to support science. Science excel without a political system and it could not completely take over a political system.
Debate Round No. 2
Jevinigh

Con

Jevinigh forfeited this round.
Wake_Island

Pro

Wake_Island forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Jevinigh

Con

Apologies for missing the last round, I was out of town and not able to get back to a computer soon enough to post a Follow up. I would like to thank Wake Island for being patient in this and we are green light to continue.

A few quick pointers:

(1)Pro did not refute evidence of a superior system in Science Based Resource Based Economics.

(2) Links I have already provided proof that the U.S. Government does not create its own money.

(3) Global poverty is an issue that still remains at large despite the Material wealth to end it.

----- Pro Contends that we require Money to live, but this also inaccurate. We require things, such as food and water, shelter and so forth to live. The Fact that money buys these things is not a stable correlation between needing things and Needing money. Or In other words, your argument " we need money" is akin to telling me " That's just the way things are done around here." That is not an intellectually valid response.

You in truth already live in a post scarcity world. Our society NEEDS for nothing, in the western world we have water, food, shelter in abundance... in excess even. Our world is not the same as it was for our ancestors and in recent decades there have been visionaries strife for a future that is beyond needs and beyond a concept of currency. That world is now with in our sight.

The Science based society, phased in Gradually will eliminate the needs for currency. The fact is that the current market system is already slated for destruction. Automation of laborious jobs is inevitable.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...

http://www.bloomberg.com...
Wake_Island

Pro

Wake_Island forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Jevinigh

Con

Pro has forfeited.
Wake_Island

Pro

Wake_Island forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Jevinigh 2 years ago
Jevinigh
Apologies, I was out of town for the weekend.
No votes have been placed for this debate.