The Instigator
bradv42
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
Koopin
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

Scientology: A Criminal Scandal?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/25/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,383 times Debate No: 10951
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (5)

 

bradv42

Pro

I started a similar topic on the forums about this topic. I've been interested in Scientology for awhile, and have studied it carefully. My argument is simple, Scientology is a criminal scandal, which has ruined families, ruined lives, as well as taking lives. If there are any Scientologists out there, or people who support Scientology, feel free to take my challenge.
Koopin

Con

Thank you for starting this debate.
Before I begin, I would like to say that I in know way support Scientology. I believe that Scientology is actually very absurd. I would still like to debate your claim though.

Scientology is a religion, A belief agreed upon by a certain number of people. You say that Scientology is in fact a criminal Scandal. Did you know that there are Christians who will just try to take peoples money? Does that mean the Christianity is a Criminal Scandal? What about Atheism? So of the most evil people in the world are Atheist, does that mean the Atheism is a Criminal Scandal?

One person or group of persons do not represent the whole religion. You say that the religion has ruined lives when in fact they people did. Atheism has not ruined lives, rather the people did.

I look forward to your next argument.
Debate Round No. 1
bradv42

Pro

Thankyou for accepting my debate Koopin.
First off, I would like to say that Scientology is not a religion, infact, it wasn't even considered a religion until they bombed the IRS with lawsuits. Plus, I would like to add that simply because the United States classifies the Church of Scientology as a religion, deosn't make the church a religion.

Second, stating such things about Christianity and Atheism are very broad assumptions,that do not reflect every Atheistic or Christain party. These statements arn't really good comparisons to the Church of Scientology. Members of Scientology often try to compare themselves ot other religions, they do this to justify themselves, which is just another childish tactic.

I will prove to you that Scientology has ruined lives, first off, I shall bring up the case of "Operation Freakout". For those of you unfammiliar with this, it happened back in 1976 with a woman named Paulette Cooper http://en.wikipedia.org.... Pauletta Cooper was an author who wrote a book critical of Scientology known as "The Scandal of Scientology". The goal of Operation Freakout was to basicly ruin Paulette Couper's life, in complience to L. Ron Hubbard's "Fair Game" http://en.wikipedia.org... Policy in the Church. "Fair Game" states that any critic of Scientology can be herassed, attacked financially, attacked mentally, attacked physicly, or even destroyed. Those are the teachings of Scientology. People are tricked into joining with promises of their lives being improved, but are in turn brainwashed.

Now, how is Scientology a scandal? Well, that's actually a very simple question. The Church of Scientology recruits people promising them a sollution to their life problems. They trick people into thinking Scientology is all that is good, and that L. Ron Hubbard is the face of what is true. The members have to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars until they reach OTIII, where they finally learn about Scientologie's beliefs in the evil space overlord, Xenu http://en.wikipedia.org.... Unfortunetly, they are already so brainwashed into this cult that they usually just accept it. They keep paying the Church, and they keep getting permoted with promises of gaining super powers.
Koopin

Con

Thank you for posting your next argument.

Scientology is in fact a religion.

A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.

There is no denying it.

Secondly,
You say that you will prove that Scientology (a religion) has ruined lives.

Then all you do is state a book that a lady wrote.

The women who wrote this could be lying.

There are many book out there that lie, just because someone decided to publish it does not make it true.

Lastly,
A criminal is someone who breaks the law.

The followers of Scientology can leave the religion when ever they want.

You have the burden of proof that all this lady says in her book is true.

You must also prove that the people who follow Scientology are brainwashed.

I look forward to your response.

Sources:
(1). http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2). http://www.scientology.org...
(3). http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 2
bradv42

Pro

Actually Koopin,
I classify it under psuedoscience/cult personally, due to Dienetic's teachings (Ron's Tech), and also the fact that the Church pretty much Idolizes L. Ron Hubbard. L. Ron Hubbard once stated that starting a religion "is where the real money is". If Scientology started as a way to make money, then it is obviously a scandal.

To reply to you replying to my statement about how Scientology ruins lives, I would like to point out that you completely ignored my statement about the L. Ron Hubbard's fair game policy. I would also like to tell you that Operation Freakout did happen! http://en.wikipedia.org... You see, when the Church of Scientology was harassing Pauletta Cooper, they attempted to frame her for crimes she did not commit (writing bomb threats), which Scientology made a suit against her for. Meanwhile, Scientology had another operation called "Operation Snow White" http://en.wikipedia.org... where they were attempting to steal government documents. Fortunetly, they were caught doing so, and FBI raided Scientology's offices in Los Angeles and discovered many illegal activities of the church, including their harassment of Pauletta Cooper, which proves her story true. Here is a website that lists Scientology associated deaths, suicides, murders, and people who were close to suicide. http://www.whyaretheydead.info... it has ruined lives.

Scientology has and still deos sommit crimes, Operation Snow White is my prime example of that. Here is list from Wikipedia of other criminal activities of the Church. (note, I am simply giving you a wiki link for the convenience of it being there, and to show you that there are cases out there.) Now, if you have done your research, and I hope you have, you should know thta the Guardian's Office is said to no longer exist. Well, unfortunetly the Office of Special Affairs within the church has taken it's place, and had barely changed. http://en.wikipedia.org...

Scientologists can leave whenever they want to, however, Scientology keeps a mental leash around them. This three-part documentery which I have posted is something you should look at, it tells the story of a former member. And there are many other former members who's stories have been told, Tory Christman being one of my examples. http://en.wikipedia.org...

Now, to further prove people have been brain washed, I shall bring up the fact that Scientologists must practice strange rituals, which phycologicly breaks the mind. There is a documentery called "Inside Scientology An Undercover Operation", you can find this on youtube.
Koopin

Con

Thank you for posting your next argument.

I gave you a definition of religion, then showed the Scientology is a religion.

You did not accept that, instead you just listed what you classify it under.

I would like to point out that in a debate you must go with what is more logical, a dictionary, or your opinion.

You are entitled to whatever you want to believe, but in a debate you must have facts, something that I have provided.

In fact, Scientology is legally recognized as a religion.

I did not answer your question statement about the L. Ron Hubbard's fair game policy because Scientology did not do that.

Ron Hubbard did.

I noticed you are a Christian, have you ever heard of the Religious Crusades?

It was a time where many Christians slaughtered countless people in a "Holly war".

Now do you think that Christianity did that?

No.

In fact, the so called Christians did.

What about Hitler?

Some say he was an atheist.

Is Atheism responsible for killing the Jews?

You say that Scientology is criminal because it brainwashes people people.

Can you prove that Scientology is brainwashing everyone?

I could say the same thing about Christianity.

I could say that Christians are brainwashing people to follow Christ or they will go to hell.

I could say the same thing about Atheism also.

That Atheist are brainwashing people to make them think that they will waist there life if they follow God.

You can say that same thing about pretty much every Religion or group.

I will stop here for now. And I look forward to your next argument.

Soucres:
(1). http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
bradv42

Pro

Scientology is not a religion, a vast amount of people know for a fact that is isn't... Infact, it isn't considered a religion in most of Europe, and is only considered a religion in the US because again, they bombed the IRS with lawsuits.
http://dictionary.reference.com... http://dictionary.reference.com...

Noah Lottick http://en.wikipedia.org... is a prime example of the financial truoble Scientology can put you in. He was a member of the Church of Scientology, he paid for Scientology's lessons, and tech, which promises to help you improve your life. He ended up jumping out of a window on the tenth floor of the Milford Plaza Hotel, his body bounced off the hood of a limousine. He had $171 clutched in his hands, this money was literally all he had left to his name.

Fair Game was written by Hubbard as a part of Scientology's teachings, that makes it one of Scientology's teachings. Currently the Office of Special Affairs has been involved with many controversal and abbusive actions of the church. They have stalked people using PI's, they have harassed people, they have hired off duty police officers to do dirty work... These tactics are used to intimidate critics, Scientology has and deos ruin lives.

Celebrity Scientologist, Larry Anderson, has recently decided to leave the church of Scientology, he wants a refund. The link provided here will show you audio tape recordings of the meeting between Larry and Tommy Davis. This recording really shows you how creepy Scientology can be about there bussiness, and how hostile they are to people who speak out against them. http://www.tampabay.com...

Koopin, I believe that we are all intitled to our own beliefs. And if a Scientologist actually believes in the things he is taught I don't have a problem with it, I have a problem with Scientology's crimes. There horrid treatment of critics, as well as there disconnection policy are the biggest issues, as well as their tax exempt status that no other cirtified religion has.

More then several former high ranking members of the church have came out and told the public about David Miscavage's abbuses of staff members.

I am a Christain, and I would appritiate it if you kept my religiouse views out of this debate. I know there are many people who have done bad things in the name of science, or God. I don't think that makes it right, and I don't think it makes Scientology right. Hitler claimed to be Christain I believe, and he did things which were very horrible. I knew a women who died a few years back in a retirement home who was able to escape one of the camps.

Now, on to brainwashing, how deos one get brainwashed into such beliefs? Well, first off, Scientology deosn't fire it's whole belief at the person. They hide stuff, because they know that if more people knoew about their actual beliefs then they wouldn't want to join. They take you through lessons that cause you to develope a mental leash, which brings you under the allusion that L. Ron Hubbard and dienetics are the face of what is truth. With this allusion, when they find out about the Xenu story they have already devoted so much money to this cult, and they are so sucked into it that they usually either accept it... Or leave. In many cases they don't need to believe, they just accept it, it really depends on the indeviduel and how brainwashed they are. That's different from telling people to believe or go to hell, they are just lying and cashing in.
Koopin

Con

I thank my opponent for posting his next argument.

Audience, my opponent is ignoring the facts, his logic is inexcusable. Since this is a 5 round debate, I will simply use this round to ask some questions.

1. What do you think religion is?
2. Do you agree that Scientology is a belief?
3. Do you think that Scientology alone can brainwash people.
4. Do you know what criminal means?
5. Can you show me the definition of criminal?

6. (This question is relevant, answer this question in one word.) What is the name of a pastry that usually has a hole in the middle and can be jelly filled?
Debate Round No. 4
bradv42

Pro

I have showed my sources. All of the facts I have brought up about Scientology's beliefs, tax exempt status, and the fact that their are numerous other governments who don't see it as a religion is true. All of the cases I have brought up as references to the Church of Scientology's crimes (old and recent) are true and can be proved. They are all on record. There are many other cases that can be looked up on a number of websites and public record.

To answer my opponent's questions.
1. Personally, I think a religion is a group of people who have come together to worship some sort of deity. Most Scientologists know nothing about the Xenu story, and simply follow L. Ron Hubbard's "studies", which are more like a philosophy or Pseudoscience.

2. Of course I agree that Scientology is a belief.

3. I know for a fact that some of Scientology's courses can, and othough believing in Scientology in itself can't do any real harm, joining the church can be dangerous.

4. A criminal is someone who breaks the law.

5. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

6. Donut.

And, I would also like to ask my opponent a few questions before we end this debate as well.

1. What is the difference between a cult and a religion?

2. Deos Scientology deserve it's tax exempt status?

3. Is Scientology a victem?

4. What is a scandal?

5. What are your own views on Scientology's controversal actions against critics?

6. Whats your own oppinion on their beliefs?

I would like to thank my apponent for debating with me, I enjoyed it, I hope he enjoyed it. I am sorry if I seemed ignorant to him, and I wasn't trying to deny any facts, and I cirtainly hope I didn't. But if so, upon personal request I would like to know which facts I have denied, so I might be able to adress them in a future debate, correct myself in comments, and see if there were any misunderstandings.
Koopin

Con

Thank you for posting your last argument.
I will now use your answers to prove a point.

1."Personally, I think a religion is a group of people who have come together to worship some sort of deity. Most Scientologists know nothing about the Xenu story, and simply follow L. Ron Hubbard's "studies", which are more like a philosophy or Pseudoscience."
You have shown nothing proving that Scientologists do not even know the story of Xenu. In fact, Xenu is what they first learn about. They do come together to worship some sort of deity. Also, we are not going by "Personally" we must go by definitions and facts. Not just what you want.

2."Of course I agree that Scientology is a belief."
Okay then, according to the Webster dictionary, Scientology is a religion.

3."I know for a fact that some of Scientology's courses can, and [al]though believing in Scientology in itself can't do any real harm, joining the church can be dangerous."
So you admit Scientology does not brainwash people. The members/church do. Not the actual belief.

4 and 5. "A criminal is SOMEONE who breaks the law."
Tell me, is Scientology a someone? No, Scientology is simply a something. It alone can not break the law. You say you would like it if I kept your religion out of this. Why? Is it because it can not be refuted? I am not attacking Christianity, I am simply stating the facts.
6. "Donut"
Here is the one that seems silly but is not. Did you know that in most of Europe it is spelled Doughnut? So would that answer be wrong? No because I did not say where the word had to come from. Just like me stating that Scientology is considered a religion in the USA. You say that other than the USA it is not a religion. If you had read my source, you would have seeing that it is considered a religion in other countries to.

ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS
=============================
1.Do you know what a cult is? A religion or sect considered to be false. [1]
2.Does Scientology deserve it's tax exempt status? This has nothing to do with the debate. Though if it is a religion than yes. Anything else would be discriminating.
3.Is Scientology a victim? I have no idea what you're talking about. A victim?
4.A PERSON whose conduct brings disgrace or offense
5.Nothing, Scientology has done nothing, rather the members have.
6.Why does this matter? I don't believe in it.

I thank my opponent for this debate and thank the audience for reading. Please vote Con.

Sources:
(1). http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2). http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by CrappyDebater 7 years ago
CrappyDebater
Steamrolled.
Posted by Kinesis 7 years ago
Kinesis
Koopin, you have a surprisingly simple and devastating debating style. I might have to see if I can pull it off :)
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Vote Placed by Vaibanez 7 years ago
Vaibanez
bradv42KoopinTied
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Vote Placed by CrappyDebater 7 years ago
CrappyDebater
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Grape
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