The Instigator
FrenchieLass
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
thett3
Con (against)
Winning
38 Points

Scotland should be an independent country

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 9 votes the winner is...
thett3
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/4/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 747 times Debate No: 58568
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (9)

 

FrenchieLass

Pro

First round - Acceptance

Due to the complexity of the issue I have allowed for maximum rounds, although if both parties feel comfortable with their arguments and rebuttal we can move to voting stage.
thett3

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
FrenchieLass

Pro

My first argument would be to focus on the issues of the voting system here. I live in a country where the parliament is ultimately decided by the majority, which is fair. The issue I hold with this is that the interests of Scotland (and arguably northern England are ignored). It's often referred to as London-Centric power. n terms of population London is higher than that of Scotland. The simple fact is we surely have our right to self determination, and I completely understand why that is scaring some people, but as a country of great resources (oil, renewables - wind power in Scotland is fantastic, technology research, food and drink e.g. whiskey/ Scotch). Regardless of the facts that Scotland is not a nation which has nothing to offer the simple fact of self determination is one of the most important within any democracy, how can we not feel excluded when our votes have note effected the results in the UK parliament for the majority of elections (please see below wings over Scotland link). Regardless of left or right views, we are talking about a country which doesn't own/ have a proper say on who governs it. We may have the Scottish Parliament, yet this at present is heavily subsidising a decision made by the UK government known commonly as the "Bedroom Tax", which was not supported by representatives in Scotland. Our current scenario involves our government (Scottish Parliament) paying the UK government this money that was pretty much overall unsupported in Scotland.

I don't deny independence has it's risks, but asking people to ignore their own right to self-determination and democracy in general is unfair, unjust and overall asking them to accept that they can do nothing against the people who have caused them issues (without trying to go too political on this, you are libertarian? I would be amazed if argue against these facts).

http://www.yesscotland.net... (Bedroom Tax)
http://news.scotland.gov.uk...(bedroom tax)
http://wingsoverscotland.com... (Scotland's current impact on it's own major government)
/http://en.wikipedia.org... (for population purposes)
http://en.wikipedia.org... (Wind power in Scotland)
http://www.scotland.gov.uk... (Wind power in Scotland)
http://www.rockstargames.com... (not the only example but a good example of a world famous company, however our economy would need to increase in this area to survive long term)
thett3

Con

I negate, Scotland should not become and independent country as Scotland's best interests will not be served with a split from the United Kingdom. I'll make my case this round, and attack my opponents arguments in the next.


a) Euro

Chief Secretary of the Treasury Danny Alexander dismissed talk of an independent Scotland keeping the Pound Sterling as it's currency as utter nonsense[1]. If Scotland votes to leave the UK, it leaves behind the pound and most likely has to adopt the Euro, which is on the verge of collapse. Der Spiegel magazine explains that within 3 to 5 years[2] the Euro will collapse as Germany gets fed up with having to constantly prop up the Eurozone and it's fellow members irresponsible economic decisions. One of the top economic advisors to the German Chancellor, Kai Konrad, also gave the Euro a 5 year expiration date[3]. Valclav Klaus argues that the Euro has already "collapsed" in a sense as it has utterly failed to bring any benefit to it's memberstates[4], concluding that even if the Euro is kept alive due to it's symbolic importance to many European politicians, the cost of keeping it will be astounding:

"The price of maintaining the euro will be low economic growth in the eurozone. Sluggish eurozone growth will result in economic losses in other European countries, like the Czech Republic, and in the rest of the world. The high price of the euro will be most visible in the volume of financial transfers that will have to be sent to eurozone countries suffering from the biggest economic and financial problems."

Scotland will be voting to ship it's wealth to Greece and Spain if it adopts the Euro. One look at the embattled Germans sould provide the best argument as to why any wise country would choose to stay out of the Eurozone as soon as possible.

Even if the Euro lasts longer than predicted, it's still in trouble as it brings down the financial viability of Eurozone members year by year. In terms of economic trouble, Scotland will be leaping from the puddle to the pond if it adopts the Euro.

If Scotland wants the most sovereignty, it's best option is to remain in the UK where their representation is not so diluted and their economic decisions are not decided by a distant Brussels authority. All the political autonomy in the world matters not if the country is held on an economic leash by the European parliament. There's a reason Euroskeptic parties swept the most recent elections--the status quo is leaving the Eurozone languishing in stagnation, and something, somewhere, has to change. Scotland would do itself a favor by staying as far away from the mess rather than leaping into it head on.

An even worse alternative would be Scotland trying to establish it's own currency, but this idea is so outlandish that virtually no one is advocatng it.

b) Taxation and spending

Scotland get's a lot of money from it's wealthier neighbors in the UK. The Guardian explains that according to a study by the Institute for Fiscal Studies[5]:

"More spending cuts and tax rises would be needed to ensure fiscal sustainability in an independent Scotland...The authors have calculated that while the UK as a whole would face a long-term fiscal gap – the difference between outgoings and receipts – of 0.8% of GDP, it would rise to 1.9% for Scotland."

The Yes campaign relies heavily on the idea that the North Sea oil reserves can carry Scotland forever, but this is living in a fantasyland with offshore rigs reaching the end of their lifespan as the oil dries up. Moreover, The Guardian continues to explain that much of Scotlands resources are actually owned by companies and individuals out of country, meaning that Scotalnds wealth and potential financial viability is vastly overstated. Scotland would have to vastly decrease it's spending and increase it's revenue lest it lose all financial credibility.

Moreover, Scotland *needs* subsidies from it's wealthy neighbors in order to keep it's aging population on the payroll or face an entitlement crisis similar to what's occurring in the United States right now.

Scotlands universities would suffer from independence as they get hugely disproportional funds from the UK. Research shows that Scottish Universities would lose about 210 million pounds worth of funding should Scotland leave[6].

That's all for now. Vote Con.

Sources:

1. http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
2. http://www.spiegel.de...
3. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk...
4. http://www.cato.org...
5. http://www.theguardian.com...
6. http://www.scotlibdems.org.uk...







Debate Round No. 2
FrenchieLass

Pro

FrenchieLass forfeited this round.
thett3

Con

Extend, vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
FrenchieLass

Pro

FrenchieLass forfeited this round.
thett3

Con

Extend, vote Con
Debate Round No. 4
FrenchieLass

Pro

FrenchieLass forfeited this round.
thett3

Con

Extend, vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by Contra 3 years ago
Contra
FrenchieLassthett3Tied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con had strong arguments, and his rhetoric was also a substantive boost to his overall case. Such instances include: "Scotland will be voting to ship it's wealth to Greece and Spain if it adopts the Euro", and "All the political autonomy in the world matters not if the country is held on an economic leash by the European parliament". Also, Pro forfeited several rounds.
Vote Placed by GodChoosesLife 3 years ago
GodChoosesLife
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Reasons for voting decision: FF.
Vote Placed by RyuuKyuzo 3 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
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Reasons for voting decision: Damn, I was looking forward to reading a full debate on this.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by lannan13 3 years ago
lannan13
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 3 years ago
bladerunner060
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct and arguments for Pro's failure to participate. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 3 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
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Reasons for voting decision: FF by Pro
Vote Placed by ESocialBookworm 3 years ago
ESocialBookworm
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Reasons for voting decision: FF