The Instigator
AthenaCastor
Pro (for)
Losing
17 Points
The Contender
lindsay
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

Scripture Forbids Christmas Trees

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/19/2007 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,331 times Debate No: 688
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (10)

 

AthenaCastor

Pro

Biblical scripture expressly forbids the use of Christmas Trees. So, why is it okay for Christians to directly violate scripture, especially in the name of honoring the birth of Jesus Christ?

Here is the specific verse:

Jeremiah 10: 1-9

1 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the Lord, "Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of a workman, with the ax.
4 They deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak to: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and they name is great in might.
7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is non like unto thee.
8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish and gold from U'phatz, the work of the workman, and of the hand of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are the work of cunning men.
lindsay

Con

I will not make this long. I will simply disprove your statement, and probably win this debate in one round.

You claim that "Scripture forbids Christmas Trees" and you back your information with an excerpt from Jeremiah.

Jeremiah was one of the 5 books of major prophets, alongside are Isaiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, and Daniel.

What makes your argument factually incorrect and invalid is that these books are all in the old testament.

JESUS was not born yet.

Christmas is a celebration of Jesus' birth. We do not know about his birth until the NEW TESTAMENT. To my knowledge, nowhere does the NEW TESTAMENT state that Christmas Trees are forbidden.

In order for me to pursue with this debate, you will need to show me a new testament passage that discourages the use of Christmas trees.

Good luck, because the Christmas tree is a tradition that evolved far after the birth of Christ.

I also would like to point out that sometimes the Bible should not be read so literally. I know that Jesus, the God I believe in, love, and worship, would encourage the use of a Christmas tree, if it means family gathering around it praising him, singing, and spending time together in LOVE with HIS name being the reason.

Jesus is the REASON for the SEASON. Lame, I know, but true, and how quickly we forget. He would not discourage us from celebrating his birth.
Debate Round No. 1
AthenaCastor

Pro

Lindsay,

Jesus may have created the New Covenant, but Old Testament rulings (that weren't disputed within the New Testament itself) still abide. Otherwise, why do Christians still honor the Ten Commandments?

Also, idoltry and the worship of other gods are strictly forbidden within the Ten Commandments. The origins of the Christmas tree and the entire "Christ"mas celebration is rooted within the worship of various sun gods.

The very first documentation of a celebration close to our modern Christmas was back during the time of Nimrod, the man who built many great cities – including Babel. Upon his death, he was elevated to the status of sun god – known as Nimrod, Baal, and various other names throughout different cultures over time. Semiramis, Nimrod's widow, then gave birth to an illegitimate child. She claimed he was Nimrod incarnate and named him Nimrod Tammuz. She claimed her son was the promised savior. The birth of Tammuz was celebrated on December 25th. Again quite familiar, right?

Christmas, when it was declared by the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century to be celebrated on December 25th, fell remarkably close to a couple of very popular Roman Pagan holidays of the time – Saturnalia and the feast of Deus Sol Invictus (the Unconquered Sun God).

Saturnalia was celebrated between December 17 and 23. Some traditions of this holiday included decorating a living evergreen tree with bits of metal, replicas of Bacchus (the god of celebration and fertility, among other things), and 12 candles in honor of the Deus Sol Invictus, using evergreen clippings to decorate their homes, feasting, and gift giving.

The Feast of Deus Sol Invictus was celebrated on December 25th. It was a feast honoring the sun god. The Romans noticed how each day closer to the winter solstice the daylight hours would be fewer. The people feared the sun god would no longer light the world. So, to honor him, they held a large feast each year.

The Roman Catholic Church allowed very few of the Roman's traditions from Saturnalia and the feast of Deus Sol Invictus to be incorporated into Christmas celebrations. They strictly forbade the decoration of evergreen trees and the use of evergreen clippings to decorate one's home. They felt the association between evergreens and paganism was far too strong.

Now more on the Germanic people. During the conversion of the Germanic people, Christians found it to be much easier to allow them to continue celebrating a Christian reinterpretation of Yule. The only difference is that the festival was now to honor the birth of Jesus Christ.

Yule was Germanic people's celebration of the winter solstice – December 25th (Julian Calendar). Some traditions of this holiday included decorating a cut evergreen tree with fruit and candles, hanging mistletoe and holly, the slaughtering/sacrificing (and eventual consumption) of a boar, the passing of the wassail bowl, and the Yule log.

Many attribute the first "Christmas Tree" to Martin Luther, but the first recorded "Christmas Tree" wasn't until 60 years after his death. Most historians now consider the Martin Luther story a myth – like most Christmas stories (ie, Santa Claus, Christkindle, Christmas Spider, etc.). However, it helped popularize the Christmas Tree for German Christians. The Victorian era first popularized the Christmas Tree to English Christians and eventually to American Christians, mostly due to Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert who was German born.

Throughout history, many fundamental Christian sects individuals have opposed the Christmas customs popularized by the Romans and Germanic Pagans.

I could go into far greater detail regarding this issue, but I fear I will end up forgetting to fix my fiance dinner if I don't stop now! I hope to read your rebuttal soon!

Masterworks,

My best friend sent me this picture quite a while ago. I don't know where its from, but I like it. I chose to use it because there was nothing else on my computer I could use, since it would be unwise for me to put a picture of myself. So, I will use whatever avatar I see fit. Also, may I remind you that when you joined Debate.org you agreed to not partake in personal attacks.
lindsay

Con

lindsay forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
AthenaCastor

Pro

AthenaCastor forfeited this round.
lindsay

Con

I had to lose last round because I didn't have internet access. Regardless, I stand by what I said, and feel no need to rebuttle any of your statements based on the fact that Christ hadn't come to Earth when the Old Testament was written. No offense, but it defeats your entire point.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by my.matryoshka 9 years ago
my.matryoshka
Conspiricy theorists... not even original...
Posted by lindsay 9 years ago
lindsay
I will be out of town in the mountains (no internet or computer even for that matter!) from tomorrow morning until christmas day, so if i lose this debate by forfeit, that will be the reason why....hopefully that won't be the case!!
10 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by AndrewB686 3 years ago
AndrewB686
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was quite rude and forfeited two rounds, therefore she loses conduct. Her argument was based off of a flawed and poorly presented argument, therefore pro wins arguments and sources because she referenced the bible, as well as provided a fair amount of supporting information.
Vote Placed by Beverlee 3 years ago
Beverlee
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: I gave Pro sources because he referenced the bible. Con essentially tries to say that the Old Testament is not "scripture," because it happens before his religion was written into it. Pro sort of says that the Old Testament is still important to Christians, but does so in a very hard to follow way. It was enough, but it could have been simpler and stronger. For example, Pro could have listed the many quotes from Jesus saying that Old Testament laws are not invalidated by him. Conduct was offsetting, because both sides forfeited a round.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by impactyourworld89 9 years ago
impactyourworld89
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by superninja 9 years ago
superninja
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by BrianFranklin 9 years ago
BrianFranklin
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Chickenman 9 years ago
Chickenman
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by NSG 9 years ago
NSG
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by lindsay 9 years ago
lindsay
AthenaCastorlindsayTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03