The Instigator
JeffPhilips
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Ore_Ele
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Seahawks vs. Packers

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Ore_Ele
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/2/2012 Category: Sports
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,303 times Debate No: 25950
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (4)

 

JeffPhilips

Pro

In the Seahawks vs. Packers game on Monday, the Seahawks did in fact make a touchdown, no doubt about it! First round is the challenge round please.
Ore_Ele

Con

As agreed in the comments, this debate is regarding the Hail Mary pass at the end of the game in week 3, 2012 and whether it should have been considered at Touch Down pass for the Seahawks under the established NFL rules.

I will be arguing that it was not a legitimate TD. My opponent will begin next round.

Thank you,
Debate Round No. 1
JeffPhilips

Pro

According to the NFL rulebook, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5, it says this, "If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball."
Also, in this video(http://www.nfl.com...), the argument for Tate having possession of the ball is much stronger; his hand NEVER came off of the football. Even if they had been real referees, it would have been ruled a touchdown because Tate's hand NEVER LEFT the football. This is a simultaneous catch. Therefore, according to NFL rulebook, if both teams have possession of the ball at the time they go down, or at the time the play is stopped, it is ruled a touchdown by the OFFENSE. So therefore, the Seahawks did have a valid touchdown.
http://static.nfl.com...
Ore_Ele

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for their argument. I will break this into two different arguments. Each one will individually refute the resolution, however, only one needs to be held as true.

1) Interception.

Allow me to first cite the NFL Rule Book Definitions [1] as well as the Rule Book on Passes [2], as we will be returning to these several times. Let us look at Rule 3, section 2, Article 7, " A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds (See 3-2-3)."

From this we can determine that for a pass to be simultaneously caught, possession needs to occur at the same time (or at least reasonably the same time). Turning to the video (we will turn to it again later), at time 0:34, we can see that Tate's right hand leaves the ball (leaving only one hand on the ball), this establishes that he did not have a firm grip on the ball and thus did not have the simultaneous catch.

2) Pass Interference.

The second main issue is with the pass interference that occurred. If we turn back to time 0:30 we can see that Tate shoved number 37 to the ground prior to his attempt for the ball while it was in the air. Let us look to Rule 8, Section 5. This lays out what pass interference is. "It is pass interference by either team when any act by a player more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible receiver"s opportunity to
catch the ball."

Shoving a player to the ground clearly falls under this (as they mention), "Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass." as well as, "Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball." It should go without saying that the pass interference would wipe out the TD (and with no time left, be the end of the game).

I would like to thank my opponent for this debate and this chance to show that TD should not have been called a TD under the written rules in the rule book.

Thank you,

[1] http://static.nfl.com...
[2] video
Debate Round No. 2
JeffPhilips

Pro

Thank you for that lengthy reply! Now let me point out that Tate had both hands on the ball WHEN JENNINGS TOUCHED DOWN. Also since his left hand never left the ball, it can't be ruled an interception. This was taken from the video. They both had possession as Tate and Jennings ended up on the ground. Therefore, the interception argument is refuted.
Pass interference, however is another topic. That is under penalties. Also, on a Hail Mary pass, pass interference penalties are not counted because everyone is vying for the ball. Sadly, I could find the video that stated this, but the head referee, who happened to be a real estate agent, he stated on television that if a Hail mary occurred, he was not to look for penalties. An Official of the NFL told him that. So therefore, the pass interference argument is not valid. My opponent did a good job, but I have been able to refute this by what the referee stated AND the video they provided.
I am looking forward to the outcome of this debate.
Ore_Ele

Con

I will only restate previously said arguments and only add new arguments as a response to my opponent's new arguments.

1) Interception

As said in R2 by my opponent, "If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control."

My opponent argues, "They both had possession as Tate and Jennings ended up on the ground," but that is meaningless. By the rule, it doesn't matter how it ended, only who achieved possession first, which has been shown.

2) Interception

My opponent makes an unsourced claim and says that he could not find the video. Well, he still had over 2 days to post his argument (he posted with something lik two days and five hours left) and could have spent that time finding the video. Regardless, it doesn't matter if the referees were not looking for penalties, the rule book does not provide a "hail mary exception."

So, by the rules (not the refs but the rules themselves), the TD should not have been called.

Thank you,
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by JeffPhilips 5 years ago
JeffPhilips
Yep! Just acceptance.
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
Okay, what is meant by "first round is the challenge round"? Do you mean first round is for acceptance only?
Posted by JeffPhilips 5 years ago
JeffPhilips
This will be about the final play, minus the extra point. I intend to prove that the final catch was valid, using NFL rules.
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
Is this going to be a legitimate debate regarding the last play of the game (minus the extra point)? Or a trolling "gotch ya" regarding the TD pass in the first quarter?
Posted by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
Is this a debate over whether or not the final touchdown was a valid touchdown or are you being a douche about this and are just going to argue that the first seahawks touchdown was a touchdown?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by shuffledybot 4 years ago
shuffledybot
JeffPhilipsOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: Con just sort of restated what he said in R2 in R3. Pro made a convincing argument but after all of the things Con said it just wasnt enough to draw me over
Vote Placed by DDO.votebombcounter1 5 years ago
DDO.votebombcounter1
JeffPhilipsOre_EleTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Vote removed
Vote Placed by Koopin 5 years ago
Koopin
JeffPhilipsOre_EleTied
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Reasons for voting decision: SAVE DDO FROM THE COMMIES!
Vote Placed by Chicken 5 years ago
Chicken
JeffPhilipsOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con successfully refuted Pro's case, and proved the touchdown was in fact an interception, as it was dual possession, EDIT: Dual Possession was lost as Golden Tate's hand left the ball, this was an interception (Also Offensive Pass interference)