The Instigator
astrosfan
Pro (for)
Winning
41 Points
The Contender
Jokerdude
Con (against)
Losing
31 Points

Second place is more valuable than first.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/14/2008 Category: Sports
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,675 times Debate No: 3625
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (20)

 

astrosfan

Pro

First I would like to wish my opponent good luck and may the better debater win. And sorry if these arguments don't flow well.

First to define valuable from Merriam Webster 2 a: having desirable or esteemed characteristics or qualities b: of great use or service http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Next in looking at this resolution we have to see that it doesn't say that winning first place is more valuable but simply being second is more valuable then being in first, this mean that we should also debate if being second at the beginning of an event is better then being in first.

The first reason that being in second place second would be more valuable then being in first place is that many people hates the guy in first place. An example would be the New England Patriots in the latest super bowl because no one wanted the Patriots to win and go undefeated many people chose to support the New York Giants and because of this they won. Because of the fact that no one like the guy in first place people will want them to lose and because of this it would not be helpful to be in first place. Secondly on this point being in second place come with what I call the underdog advantage were because people wants the underdog to win and be an inspiration to all the other underdogs person in second place has an advantage over the person in first. For example the 2001 Arizona Diamond-Backs where second going into the World Series but in the end because of how they had the underdog advantage more people supported them and they won. In both of these situations we can see that it would be more valuable to be in second place then in first.

Another reason why second is more valuable then first is that if you are in second place you have reason to improve and better yourself while if your in first you have no incentive to improve. For example if you were to win in a sports event you would begin to slack off because you believe that because you won you're the best, but if you are in second you have reason to improve in order to reach first place and because the person in first is slacking off it would be easier of the person in second to pass the one in first. Thus over the long run being in second would be better then being in first.

Next being in first put pressure on you to do well. For example being first in your class has a lot of pressure to do well because of increased pressure to do well you would work later in order to study more, but this cause problems because you have a lack of sleep which according to studies actually causes people to perform worse http://www.apa.org.... so if you where in second place you wouldn't have this force to do well and would be able to have more sleep and in turn you would do better. The person in first place will become a perfectionist but because of this they will increase stress and it will be worse on this person and possibly crack under the pressure and fail. So because of the fact that second place avoids these negative effects it is more valuable then first.

Lastly in monetary value because second place is longer then first if I were to write "second place" on a peace of paper then cut it out it would be worth more the if I did the same thing with the words "first place". So in terms of a monetary debate because second is longer it would require more paper and more ink thus increasing its value.
Jokerdude

Con

Good luck to you too and I hope this will be an enjoyable debate.

So Ill bullet each of your points answer them then say some of my own points.

1. The point about the resolution is hardly worth debating but Ill do so any way. You cannot start the race in first or second you can only finish in a place. To begin the race at a position then you would have to have already raced, etc. thus bringing us the whether one point is better than the other, which is what we will debate.

2. For these examples you gave about the Giants and the Diamondbacks really only support my position that 1st is the most important. Both examples argue that people wanted the underdog to win, aka 1st place. They didn't want their team to take 2nd but first. Personally I supported the Patriots because I wanted to see them have an undefeated season. The Patriots lost and ended up in 2nd place as a disappointment to many. Also if you watched both games then you would notice that once the team takes first place they party and celebrate while the 2nd place team wallows and walks off defeated; they have no glory in 2nd place. So your argument doesn't even support your cause because really the point of your argument is for a team to win 1st based on where they were seeded.

3. You argue that 2nd is most important because it holds incentive to win while being in first has no point to train or improve. This again is false because while a team might be in first at that time it wont be so as soon as the next season starts, they need to win again and fight just as hard for 1st place. Again this argument contradicts itself because if a team trains hard to win they are shooting for 1st place again showing the all importance of coming in 1st place not 2nd people will work hard so they can be 1st not 2nd.

4. This argument says that winners will lose sleep then decline in overall status. I don't believe in this argument just from personal experience. My lacrosse team is 6-0 and we don't feel any pressure at all. A team gets an alloted time to practice the compete and thats all. If anything we get a better nights sleep because we are physically exhausted from the intense training. I consider this point moot.

5. This is the monetary argument. I'm assuming this is a joke but Ill play along. 1st holds more monetary value because if you take first in a competition you will get a higher amount of money as a reward than you would if you took second place.

As a summary based on the arguments you should vote CON because everyone strives to become 1st place and take the championship etc. Also to quote Ricky Bobby "If your not first your last."
Debate Round No. 1
astrosfan

Pro

1.On my argument that we should look at the resolution as is being in second place before the event starts. First I justify by saying that because that "winning" is not in the resolution we should not be debating about it. My opponent's response has no basics within the resolution and secondly the example he gives 1 isn't true because in many sport with using NASCAR as an example you have races before the race to receive starting positions and 2 it supports my side because when he says "whether one point is better than the other, which is what we will debate" we should debate whether being in second is more beneficial or as my definition of valuable states "of great use" we should debate if being in second is more useful then first

2.My opponent's next argument is based off the first one and as I said we should be debating about the advantages of being in second over those of being in first. But on this point my opponent fails to answer the fact that being in second place dose come with an advantage. As I stated in both of my examples the fact that the majority of people wanted the underdog to win there support gave them an advantage. This advantage comes from how people want to be inspired and that even if you're not favored to win you still can. The fact that my opponent dropped the fact that there is an advantage to being in second place you can turn my opponent's argument because if you're more likely to win you're more likely to get the glory that my opponent talks about.

3.On this next point my opponent claims that the person in first place still has to practice. In order to explain this point I will use the example of the NE Patriots, because they were in first place they underestimated the Giants and because of that they didn't cheat like they did during the regular season and because of this cockiness they lose. Now even though that was a joke the point that because the success goes to people's heads it cause people to underestimate there opponents and lose. Because of this fact we can see that there is a huge disadvantage to being in first place thus this is another reason to support that second place is more valuable then first.

4.Next my opponent argues that there is no stress in being in first place. He uses the example of his lacrosse team but the problem with this example is that even if they are undefeated that doesn't mean that they are ranked number one so this is not a valid example. But we still doesn't refute my example of the person ranked first in a class I personally know my school's valedictorian and he is always studying and because of this he gets less sleep so there is a clear link between being in first place and having pressure to do well.

5.Yes this is kind of a joke but I'm going to debate it any way. The fact is if you print out the topic and cut out the part that says "second" and the part that says "first" the on with second on it would be worth more because on it takes more ink to create and two it uses up more paper and because of the value the thing have the piece with second on it will be worth more. But in response to my opponent's claims that winning first place has better monetary rewards but cross apply my second argument that being in second comes with advantages this turns his argument because if your more likely to win then there is a better chance that they can receive these rewards.

6.Coming in second is still better because you can see your flaws and find ways to fix them. And as I stated before in my number three argument that the person in first will not think there is incentive to improve. Because of the feed back you receive on how to improve when you come in second place this is again an advantage for second place.

7.My final argument is that my opponent is a Patriots fan and because the Patriots cheated there is reason to believe that he himself is not cheating because if you support a team you see what they do and try to do the same. So because the fact that my opponent would act like the Patriots and try to cheat you shouldn't vote for him. And if you can't tell this is a joke and I'm trying to make this debate funny.

So to wrap this round up because of the fact that we should be looking at the advantages of being in second compared to those of being in first, and because of the advantages that I state in my 2 and 6 points of how second is better and then my point on how being in first is bad in my 3 and 4 points I urge the judges to vote pro on this topic
Jokerdude

Con

Well not exactly what I expected but here we go

1. So my opponent basically says that winning isn't important so shouldn't be debated and that you can start in a set position to start because of a "pre race"

a. The first place when my opponent says winning isn't important which would defeat the point of all sports or competitive events. To win is to take first place the center of all so yes it is within "your" resolution. So in this world of debating the advantages of the places first would trump second. The resolution you set was that which has the larger advantage leads us to first place. If first place had a lesser value no one would compete because no one would want first the glory spot.

b. To pull my original argument "To begin the race at a position then you would have to have already raced." I said this and my opponent responded by saying that they do race prior. I acknowledge this but the fact remains they are still racing to have the best position of first but until that first race everyone is equal. Also that last portion I said was rhetorical like no duh that is what we are doing right now it wasn't an argument.

2. This next point is absurd to say the least, he says that because people will a team to win they will win. Then he goes on to say that he can turn one of my argument that says 1st place has the glory etc. etc. ignoring the point of my argument......

a. The simple will of people in their minds cannot change the outcome of a sporting match. There may be yelling but that is no different from any other event regardless. People will choose sides that is the point of an event. There is no "advantage" to be found the fact still remains that the largest advantages are found in first place.

b. Hold on a sec let me just stop and think... What?? How could you turn that if you try to turn it it just puts more into my argument by the fact you would concede that first place has glory. You admitted that first place has glory and thats where it is found. Tying this into the other point like my opponent did since spectators cant change the outcome then there is no point in associating glory with second place.

3. So this point is the NE cheated didn't in the superbowl lost because they underestimated them. Winning goes to peoples heads so they lose.

a. Lolz thats actually pretty funny NE cheated and got caught within the first few games of the regular season. They didn't cheat after so to say that they lost the superbowl because they didn't cheat is a moot point at this point. The NE Patriots had a great team and practiced and played hard all season long even until the last game.

b. Winning does do a lot of things to a team but forcibly cause them to lost it does not. For the fact that you want to debate advantages this is a scarce topic for you to pick up any leeway. For the advantage in first place this gives them confidence and inspiration as the team goes game to game each time building their confidence as well as their skills.

4. Lax team not in first so its not an example of stress, and my friend the valedictorian studies and is under stress.

a. Well technically our team is first in our division and there is a fair amount of pressure but nothing negative so far.

b. Point b stunned me because it contradicts your first couple of arguments. In round one you stated those under pressure collapse and fail. Yet your friend studies and has a lot of pressure on him yet he doesn't fail. Like I have been proving being in first isn't enough to collapse the first place team. You lose no sleep and first place leaves you with a happy thought each night.

5. Turn the fact because of point 2

a. This really doesn't say much to the debate, but it is a joke and this doesn't comparatively answer anything at all. The point I made was that winning first has the better advantage monetarily because of the values that are attached to each. It is a separate answer that cant be simply cross applied.

6. Second sees their flaws and there is no incentive to improve.

a. First has to see their flaws and they do. If they cant do this just as well as any other team then they wont be able to maintain first place. They have to be at their best any time they are on the field. So there is no advantage to be found in 6a because both teams work equally as hard if not first working harder to maintain position.

b. There is plenty of incentive to improve because if the first place team doesn't constantly improve they will be surpassed so they have the more work ethic to maintain that lead in front of the other. If you are looking for advantages in this argument there are still none to find. Oh and you receive feedback regardless of what place you come in.

7. Dont vote for my opponent because he supports NE a cheating group.

a. To be honest I cant stand the Patriots that much I just wanted to see how far they could go I suppose you could call me a bandwagon fan. And dont vote for my opponent because he probably pulls for the Lions, man they make me mad.

So at this point in the round CON is winning this round because the only advantages that PRO has are those which are shared between both PRO and CON. CON has the most advantages in the fact that first has the glory the money and the drive to succeed.
Thank You
Debate Round No. 2
astrosfan

Pro

To road map this next round first I'm going to defend my number 1 argument then over view all the arguments then go into detail.
1.This is probably the most important point in this debate because it set the ground that we should be debating. To restate what I said before we should be looking at this debate from the point of view before the event because no were in the topic dose it state "winning" so why should we be debating about something that is not in the resolution. Secondly I support my framework for the debate by using the definition of valuable as being of use so we should be debating the usefulness of first and second place. My opponent tries to attack this point by claiming that I said that winning was not important, but I will concede that winning is good, but as I already said this debate is not about if winning is better but instead the use of being in first or second. My opponent's next attack is that in pre-races they still try for first but because of what I will state later that it would be more beneficial to come in second thus meet what I said we should be debating over the advantages of being in first or second place. But for why you should pick my interpretation of the resolution over my opponent's
a.First my interpretation fit closer to the resolution because the only way for my opponent's interpretation to work is to add words to the topic.
b.Secondly not to complain but this topic is sloped way towards the con side so you should support my interpretation because it makes the debate fairer.

So now for an overview. To start off I will break down my opponent's arguments offensively and defensively. On number 2 all he has is defense that there is no advantage, number 3 only defense that there is no underestimating, number 4 defense that there is no stress, number 5 doesn't matter because it not related to the topic, number 6 defense that 1st has problems too, and number 7 defense on how he doesn't support the Patriots. But the point I'm trying to get at is that my opponent only has defensive arguments now the fact is that you can't win a debate off of just defense because if there is no reason show in the round how first could be better or as good as second so to put in percentage points there is a 0% chance that first is as good as second, but on the other side because even if you believe my opponent's arguments there still is at least 1% chance that second is better and because of this fact you are going to vote on the 1% chance that second is better over the 0% chance that first is better.

2.Now to extend this point the fact is that there is an advantage to being the underdog. This next argument even though new should be allowed because in response to a new argument from my opponent's last round. The fact is that people's opinion can affect people's performance if people believe that that the team can win then it will make the players think that if the fans believe in them then they have a chance at winning. Along with the crowd's the underdog advantage also has the benefit of that if the underdog win they receive more glory and will inspire them to do better http://www.gamepuzzles.com.... this is what turns my opponent's argument because if there is more glory in the underdog winning then there is more reason for them to try to do better.

3.First on this point to defend the fact that the Patriots cheated, during the regular season the Giants and the Patriots played and what happened the Giants lost, but then in the Super Bowl the same teams hit each other and this time the Giants won so something must have been different between these two games. What I'm saying is that this proves that being in second is better because the only way to explain why this would happen is to assume that either the Patriots got cocky and didn't think that the Giants could win and didn't play as well as they could or the Giants got an underdog advantage because many people wanted them to win. The fact is that if your in first place you think your all that but because of this you are likely to underestimate your opponent and lose.

4.On this point we have to see that even though my valedictorian has failed he is bond to in time look at the Patriots they were undefeated until they cracked and lost. The fact is when your in second there is no pressure because people expect you to lose http://archives.tcm.ie.... I have presented empirical evidence of how this pressure can cause people to crack and fail and when my opponent use his lacrosse team because they haven't lose but they will crack under the pressure in time.

5.On this argument my opponent's response isn't valid because it is based on winning, but as I said in my 1st point we shouldn't be debating over the value of winning first or second place. Also I win on this argument because my opponent has never denied what I said so you can consider this point dropped and vote pro now.

6.On this point you can cross apply what I said on my number 3 argument that because they're in first place they become cocky and because of this the team will be so cocky that they don't think that they have to improve. And because the team in second place doesn't have this cockiness they will be more likely to look at there faults and try to find ways to fix them.

7.Well just to answer to what my opponent said I'm not a lions fan I'm from Houston I pull for the Texans even though they're not good.

So to sum this debate up you're going to vote for the pro because of the fact that most of my opponent's arguments are based of a flawed interpretation of the topic and because of the fact my opponent has shown no inherent advantages that being in first is better then being in second. But in the end this was a fun debate and I thank my opponent and ask the judges to look at what each side has shown and vote for the better debater.
Jokerdude

Con

Man Its so much easier when points are labeled clearly, it really isn't that hard to follow even after I set up numbered and lettered points, oh well.

1. So my opponent still clings to the framework he tried to set up that we should evaluate pre-race to determine which "advantage" was most important. Also he still says that winning isn't key to determining the value of first and second place.

a. The framework my opponent sets up is inherently flawed. Evaluating first and second place before the race cannot be done. If the debate is to evaluate second place and first place the race must be completed before evaluating the past; not speculating on the future.

b. The next portion of the framework is to determine advantages. I have agreed to this point that advantages are a key factor to winning this debate. But winning still is the greatest advantage that outweighs all others. Everything centers around winning, winning is associated with first place, losing is associated with second or lower. So you need to know the full facts before making the decision not before the race even begins.

Overview Counter- My opponent says I only have defensive arguments, which is a waste of time to argue because if you look at the arguments you will find I have almost all offense. The whole debate I have attacked his resolution and the absurdity of his arguments. Also I have attacked the fact that he has no single shred of credible arguments all these arguments are are whiney arguments as a means of defense. All he has done this round is try to avoid the biggest argument over winning = 1st place.

2. My opponent still believes that if people will it a team can win regardless of skill or talent. Then introduces a website which I will attack.

a. This argument is something that has no merit or for that matter a practical means of proof. Even if everyone was to vote for the underdog the team itself wouldn't even know because the game would be like everyother game fans yelling and people going crazy.

b. For those of you who actually read through the website it is a website devoted to explaining how people come up with odds for gambling. It goes on to talk about the underdog and how its rankings are found. The site even concedes that the most glory will come from those who win, which is my argument for advantage debate.

3. This argument my opponent advocates that people ahead get cocky and lose. Also that the Patriots got cocky and lost.

a. People in the lead do get confidence like I have previously stated. But as my opponent ignored I also have proven that it doesn't affect their performance which Ill get to in the next portion of the argument.

b. My opponent is trying to advocate that because the Patriots lost the super bowl because they got cocky and lost. Examining week 17 of the 2007 season, the Patriots won 38-35. This was a 3 point game, it was close and could have gone either way with a touchdown. The super bowl the giants won 17-14, yet another 3 point game. The fact was both these teams were evenly matched and the games could have gone either way. The fact of the matter was that it happened to be the Giants day not the Patriots, skill won.

4. My opponent says that although it hasn't happened yet my friend will crack and people expect you to fail.

a. The fact of the matter is that being in first does not guarantee yourself to fail. I'm going into my senior year next year and we have 18 people still with 4.0 and in AP classes. The point is that with hard work anyone can take the glory of first place. Also as a side note my lacrosse team is now 8-0 as of yesterday.

b. This new link is referring to a team that won over another. You claim to have empirical proof but all this is is an article from a local newspaper in Ireland by an author that thinks nothing of the skill levels. No matter what the game comes down to skill you could think that you might win or lose all day but with out skill to back it up it is worthless. Disregard this opinion, not empirical evidence.

5. Now he says that it is not valid it is based on winning.

a. This is a totally valid argument if you look back to my prior argument in the other round and this one. Like I have been advocating winning is the ultimate advantage that outweighs all others, since my opponent still hasn't got this vote him down.

6. Cross apply 3.

a. Like I said you cant cross apply arguments when each argument is its each individual argument, its just lazy to do so.

b. There is incentive to improve because if the first place team doesn't constantly improve they will lose so they have to work harder to maintain that lead in front of the other. There are no advantages in this argument. You receive feedback regardless of what place you come in thats what coaching is. Also that both teams have to work to maintain first place.

7. Not even worth talking about because it was a joke argument to begin with.

To come to a conclusion you will vote CON because my opponent still hasn't figured out that winning is the ultimate advantage and he ignores anything to do with this advantage the entire round. I have proven that there are no advantages to coming in second place that first place still doesn't receive. Also since I have proven that you cannot evaluate first and second place until the race is finished and my opponent has not successfully proven why we shouldn't. Thank you for you time, and thank you astrosfan for this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 8 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
I've posted my judgement on this debate which can be found here.

http://www.facebook.com...

I short though, Jokerdude won my vote.
Posted by Darth_Grievous_42 8 years ago
Darth_Grievous_42
I'll post my judgment sometime tomarrow. Too much tonight.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 8 years ago
Geekis_Khan
I'm sorry, I didn't bother reading this (but I didn't vote).

But I just wanted to say PRO - if you lose, look on the bright side: you're in second place. :)
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