The Instigator
famer
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
baggins
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Severus Snape is a more anti-death eater character than Harry Potter

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
baggins
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/18/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,007 times Debate No: 20461
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (3)

 

famer

Pro

Pro (me) will be debating that Severus Snape (from the Harry Potter series) is a more devoted character to helping out the "anti-dark" side than Harry Potter himself. Con will argue that Harry Potter is a better character in terms on how much they helped out with the good side than Severus Snape.

First round acceptance only.
baggins

Con

I am happy to accept the debate. Waiting eagerly for my esteemed opponent to initiate the arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
famer

Pro

I thank my opponent baggins for accepting the challenge for this debate. It will be an interesting topic! Anyways, to my actual arguments, most of this argument will be covered in the 33rd chapter of the seventh book (Death Hallows). The chapter name is called "The Prince's Tale". Hopefully this will ring a bell for the Harry Potter fans, as you would probably be able to guess what kinds of things I will be covering.

The first argument that I would like place forth is that Severus Snape has placed himself into so much danger as to help out the good side as for Albus Dumbledore's orders and for his love to Harry's mother, Lily Evans. He placed himself as a spy for Albus Dumbledore by joining sides with the death eaters to leech out their plans at great risk of being discovered as not having any true intentions of being a death eater or a supporter of Voldemort (You-know-who, He-who-must-not-be-named etc. ).

One more thing to note is that Voldemort himself is a very capable Legilimens and it is likely for that reason Severus Snape mastered the magical ability of Occlumency. And, as most Harry Potter fans would know, Occlumency is the process when you close your mind and clear your mind of any thoughts or emotions. Snape, being a human, can accidentally open up his mind therefore allow Voldemort access his thoughts.

The second argument that I would like to put forward is the fact Snape helped Harry Potter a great deal for him to survive and also destroy the horcruxes before the final and most important part, finishing off Lord Voldemort himself. A very clear example will be explained in my fourth example.

One may argue that Snape was a death eater before he started helping the good side, but that just proves my point. He left the dark side soon after he realised that Lily Evans was being hunted down by Voldemort at great risk of being found out of his true goals.

Allow me to show you some examples from this chapter to prove my point of Snape's devotion to the "good side".

First example:

‘Hide them all, then,' he croaked. ‘Keep her – them – safe. Please.'
‘And what will you give me in return, Severus?'
‘In – in return?' Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, ‘Anything.' [1]

Allow me to skip a few sentences…
… Snape raised his face, and he looked like a man who had lived a hundred years of misery since leaving the wild hilltop.
‘I thought… you were going … to keep her … safe …'
‘She and James put their faith in the wrong person,' said Dumbledore. ‘Rather like you, Severus. Weren't you hoping that Lord Voldemort would spare her?'
Let me skip a fair bit of this conversation again…
‘… I wish I were dead…'
‘And what use would that be to anyone?' said Dumbledore coldly. ‘If you loved Lily Evans, if you truly loved her, then your way forward is clear.'
Snape seemed to peer through a haze of pain, and Dumbledore's words appeared to take a long time to reach him.
‘What –what do you mean?'
‘You know how and why she died. Make sure it was not in vain. Help me protect Lily's son.'
‘He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone –'
‘– the Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does.'
There was a long pause, and Snape regained control of himself, mastered his own breathing. At last he said, ‘Very well. Very well. But never – never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear … especially Potter's son … I want your word!'

This is the end of my first example. This just goes to show the terrible ordeal that Severus Snape went through just to help the person that he loved most, that being Lily Evans. He dislikes (some may say loathe) James Potter and Harry Potter but would still help Lily Evans achieve what she wanted to from the beginning EVEN after she has died.

Second example…

‘Well?' murmured Dumbledore.
‘Karkaroff's Mark is becoming darker too. He is panicking, he fears retribution; you know how much help he gave the ministry after the Dark Lord fell.' Snape looked sideways at Dumbledore's crooked-nosed profile. ‘Karkaroff intends to flee if the Mark burns.'
‘Does he?' said Dumbledore softly, as Fleur Delacour and Roger Davies came giggling in from the grounds. ‘And are you tempted to join him?'
‘No,' said Snape, his black eyes on Fluer and Roger's retreating figures. ‘I am not such a coward.'
‘No,' agreed Dumbledore. ‘You are a much braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon …'

This is concludes my second example as I would prefer to keep it short. The situation of this example (from the memory of course) was during the time when Voldemort was close to reaching the height of his powers. Snape realised the dangers that he would soon be in after the Dark Lord rises and as quoted, ready to risk his life to serve Dumbledore as a spy to the dark side. [2]

Third example…

‘I prefer not to put all of my secrets in one basket, particularly not a basket that spends so much time dangling on the arm of Lord Voldemort.'
‘Which I do on your orders!'
‘And you do extremely well. Do not think that I underestimate the constant danger in which you place yourself, Severus. To give Voldemort what appears to be valuable information while withholding the essentials is a job I would entrust to nobody but you.'
‘Yet you confide much more in a boy who is incapable of Occlumency, whose magic is mediocre and who has a direct connection into the Dark Lord's mind!' [3]

This third example here just goes to prove my point on how much of an ordeal Snape must go through to help the good side (and more importantly, from Snape's most likely point of view, Lily). He risks so much to help Dumbledore and yet receives so little in return. He also hates Harry so much but still, as said before, he still helps the good side, no matter how much he must withstand.

Fourth example…

‘Good. Very good!' cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the Headmaster's chair. ‘Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken under conditions of need and valour – and he must not know that you give it! If Voldemort should read Harry's mind and see you acting for him –'
‘I know,' said Snape curtly. He approached the portrait of Dumbledore and pulled at its side. It swung forwards, revealing a hidden cavity behind it, from which he took the sword of Gryffindor.
‘And you still aren't going to tell me why it's so important to give Potter the sword?' said Snape, as he swung a travelling cloak over his robes.
‘No, I don't think so,' said Dumbledore's portrait. ‘He will know what to do with it. And Severus, be very careful, they may not take kindly to your appearance after George Weasley's mishap –'
‘Don't worry, Dumbledore,' he said coolly. ‘I have a plan…' [4]

This finishes off my fourth and final example for this round's argument. It is a very clear example, as explained from my second argument that Snape has helped Harry Potter on his big journey to eliminating the most infamous wizard of all time.

Conclusion:

This concludes my first argument on why Severus Snape is a more anti-death eater character than Harry Potter. I have two main arguments that make me think in this way. It is because Snape has risked his life so much as to leech out valuable information to help out the good side and secondly, helped Harry Potter on his tireless journey to defeat the Dark Lord.

References:

The references have been cited with citation points ([1] would mean the first reference)

1."Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33" Page 544-545.
2."" Page 545
3."" Page 549
4."" Page 553
baggins

Con

The proposed resolution was: "Severus Snape is a more anti-death eater character than Harry Potter"

Readers would have noticed that Pro's arguments are incomplete. He has argued that, "Snapes is an anti-death eater character". I concur that Snape is an important anti-death eater. But to win this debate Pro needs to show that Snape was MORE anti-death eater than Harry.

While we wait for the missing arguments from Famer, I will proceed with arguments in favor of Harry.

Against dark arts from the beginning: As a child, Severus Snape loved dark arts. He became a death-eater by his own choice. Lily was the only thing in the world Snape loved - and he lost her due to his fascination with dark magic. It was only after Lily's death (which was partially his fault) that he became horrified with his own deed and switched side. Had Voldemord decided to kill anyone other than Lily - Snapes would have most probably happily remained on the dark side!

Harry choose to work against dark arts ever since he was a child. The sorting hat decided that he was suitable for Slytherins - but he choose to become a Graffindor since Slytherins were normally associated with Dark arts.

The forgiving nature: Harry has a very forgiving nature. He risked his own life to save life of Dudley Dursley - even though he never liked Dudley much. In the final part - he went to the extent of saving life of Draco Molfoy - immediately after Draco tried to kill him. Towards the end - we see that Harry even feels pity for the little piece of Voldemort's soul. Snape, on the other hand, never really forgave James or Sirius for school-days pranks. When Snapes was given the task of teaching Occlumancy to Harry - he was unable to rise above his own ego and hatred. Ultimately this Sirius’s death.

Little child - Big Deeds:Harry performed several difficult and challenging tasks against the dark arts ever since he was a child. We are talking about deeds - which would have been really tough for fully grown wizards.
  • Book 1: Saved the Philosopher's stone. Thwarted Voldemort's plans for return.
  • Book 2: Unvieled the Chamber of Secrets, saved Ginny, helped Dobby in gaining freedom and destroyed Tom Riddle's enchanted diary.
  • Book 3: Saved Sirius from Dementors.
  • Book 4: Faced Voldemort and dueled with him. Brought the body of Cedric back to Howgwarts.
  • Book 5, 6 and 7: In these books, he is part of the long fight against Voldemort and his death-eaters. He undertakes incredibly difficult tasks along with his friends. The biggest among them is the destruction of the Horcrux so as to kill Voldemort.

In the Goblet of Fire, Dumbledore says [1]:

"I will say it again," said Dumbledore as the phoenix rose into the air and resettled itself upon the perch beside the door. "You have shown bravery beyond anything I could have expected of you tonight, Harry. You have shown bravery equal to those who died fighting Voldemort at the height of his powers. You have shouldered a grown wizard's burden and found yourself equal to it"

The dislike of dark arts: Harry was a powerful wizard. At the end - he had vanquished Voldemort. He was also the first wizard in the history of magical world who possessed all the three hallows. Had he so decided - he could have been a very powerful dark wizard himself. We see that he decided not to use the elder wand and thus terminate its history of bloodshed. Rather he preferred to spend his life as a simple but happy person in the company of Ginny. In the words of Dumbledore:

"It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well."

The Sacrifice: When he realizes that he needs to die to defeat dark art - Harry chooses to walk towards his own death. While Snape also choose to risk his life fighting the death-eaters; there is a huge difference between risking life and actually welcoming death without any defense.

Voldemort inside him: Pro has tried to emphasize the fact that Snape was risking his life by being near such a great legimancy expert as Voldemort. What he has forgotten is that a part of Voldemort was living inside Harry since childhood. Harry avoided dark arts in spite of this connection.

I have presented five prominent reasons why Harry Potter should be judged as 'more' anti death eater than Severus Snape. I may present further arguments in the next round - depending on the thrust of my opponent’s approach.
Looking forward eagerly for arguments by Famer.

References:
[1] Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 36
[2] Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 35
Debate Round No. 2
famer

Pro

I thank baggins for submitting a well-thought out argument for the second round. Con has pointed out that I (pro) need to show that Snape was MORE anti-death eater than Harry. Unfortunately, I did not put forth a definition of the term “death eater” and would assume that we follow something along the lines of:

Death Eater: A follower of Lord Voldemort.

And, it would seem that this site agrees with me [1].

If we follow the definition that I have just placed forth, I have, in round 2, attempted to prove that Severus Snape is a MORE anti-death eater character than Harry.

Now, before we move onto my arguments, I would like to make some rebuttals:

REBUTTAL 1:

Against dark arts from the beginning”. It is true that Snape loved the dark arts as a child but the story proves that changed after he changed after Voldemort started hunting Lily Evans and James Potter. This changed even Snape to have a more forgiving nature. Two examples can be seen here:

‘…Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort’s employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney’s prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know – he had no possible way of knowing – which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were you mother and father – ’
Harry let out a yell of mirthless laughter.
‘He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Haven’t you noticed, Professor, how the people hates tend to end up dead?’
‘You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and then reason that he returned –’

Now the keyword here that we must pay much attention to is “remorse”. We all agreed that Snape used to be a death eater, but what I am pointing out is the things he has done after he joined forces with Dumbledore.

Second example:

And now Snape stood again in the Headmaster’s study as Phineas Nigellus came hurrying into his portrait.
‘Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood –’
‘Do not use that word!’

This is a very clear example that Snape does not possess the characteristics of a Death Eater.

REBUTTAL 2:

The forgiving nature”. The part that Harry has a forgiving nature is true, but one cannot really expect someone like Severus to have much sympathy for what James and Sirius did to him during their school days. I would also like con to clarify his point when he said “Ultimately this Sirius’s death.”

REBUTTAL 3:

The Sacrifice”. Unfortunately, I do not quite agree with con argument that Harry walked towards his own death. When Harry walked up to Voldemort armless, he was not letting himself die, but allowing Voldemort himself to destroy his last horcrux. As we all know, Harry was Voldemort’s only horcrux that he did not mean to create. The evidence can be narrowed down to the connections that both have with each other and also Harry’s ability to speak with snakes (parsletongue).

All in all, Harry Potter did not walk towards his own death, but merely allowed Voldemort to destroy the part of him that lived inside Harry Potter.

REBUTTAL 4:

Voldemort inside him”. Now I have to admit that this is a pretty interesting argument. From my understanding, con is saying that although Voldemort does not need to be a master with Legilimency to read Harry Potter’s mind. Unfortunately, this is not true as explained here:

‘Yet you confide much more in a boy who is incapable of Occlumency, whose magic is mediocre and who has a direct connection into the Dark Lord’s mind!’
‘Voldemort fears that connection,’ said Dumbledore. ‘Not so long ago he had one, small taste of what truly sharing Harry’s mind means to him. It was pain such as he has never experienced. He will not try to possess Harry again, I am sure of it. Not in that way.’ [3]

Although Voldemort and Harry share a connection, Voldemort does not use that connection to read Harry’s mind because of the pain he experiences.

Arguments:

Although Harry and Snape hated each other from their first time meeting each other, Snape has also saved Harry’s life in the first year. As proved by quoting Quirrel:

‘No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidentally knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I’d have got you off that broom. I’d have managed it before then if Snape had’t been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you.’ [4]

Snape hates Harry Potter from inside out, yet, he still saves his life from a disastrous accident that could have happened during the Quidditch match.

There’s not much more that I can add for now because con has not yet made any rebuttals to any of my argument yet, so my previous argument in Round 2 still stands untouched.

References:

  1. http://harrypotterdictionary.com...
  2. Harry Potter And the Deathly Hallows Chapter 33
  3. Harry Potter And the Deathly Hallows Chapter 33
  4. Harry Potter And the Philosopher’s Stone Chapter 17
baggins

Con


Many thanks to Famer for his response.


Pro asserts that if we define:


Death Eater: A follower of Lord Voldemort.


then:


If we follow the definition that I have just placed forth, I have, in round 2, attempted to prove that Severus Snape is a MORE anti-death eater character than Harry.


This is non-sequitur. This is false assertion without any valid evidence. Pro has never really shown that Snape is MORE anti-death eater than Harry. It is unclear how such a conclusion can be drawn from this definition of 'Death Eater'.


On other hand this is also a declaration that this is all Famer is going forward as evidence for his case. Since we have nothing better to do - let us analyze his arguments.


====Rebuttals to Pro's 2nd round argument====


Famer has presented only two arguments in 2nd round - apart from few examples.



  • Snape risked his life: I agree. However this does not show how Snape is MORE anti-death eater than Harry, since Harry also risked his life many times over fighting the dark arts.

  • Snape helps Harry in fighting dark-arts: I agree with this also. But this again fails to show how Snape is MORE anti-death eater than Harry. Many people help Harry in fighting dark arts over the course of time. Some of the people who have saved Harry include Ron, Harmionie and Hagrid.


Please note, I am not saying that Snape was not against dark arts. My intention is not to trivialize his contributions in any way. However, I fail to see on what basis the Pro has asserted that Snape is MORE anti death eater than Harry.


====Counter Rebuttals for my arguments====


Against Dark arts from beginning: Pro highlights the remorse felt by Snape. I agree that Snape regretted his position and did change his side after the death of Lily Evans Potter. However that does not make him better than Harry - who has been fighting the dark arts in all manifestation since his childhood!


There is another problem with Snape's remorse. Snape would not have felt any remorse had Voldemort decided to choose any one other than Harry (and by extension Lily). This is not remorse against his support for dark arts. The prime motivator for this remorse is his own lust and passion for Lily. And let us not forget - the reason Snape lost Lily was Snape's love for dark arts!


The forgiving nature: Pro concedes that Harry had much more forgiving nature than Snape.


Famer considers it unfair to 'expect' Snape to forgive James and Sirius for school days rivalries. This is not a argument at all. It would have been useless to expect Voldemort to give up dark arts. Does that justify the fact that Voldemort practiced dark arts!


Pro also asks how Snape's ego and hatred led to death of Sirius. The answer to that is in 'The order of Phoenix'. Snape fails to teach occlumancy to Harry because of his ego. Had Harry learnt occlumancy he would not fallen into the trap planned by Voldemort and Sirius would have died in the rescue effort. Dumbledore admits that Snape failed to overcome old 'wounds' even though he earlier thought Snape will be able to manage it.


some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong [1]


Little child, Big deeds: Con has dropped this point. As per standard debating procedures, a dropped point is considered as conceded. The voters can assume that Pro has conceded this point.


The sacrifice: Pro has failed to understand, that when Harry had walked to the forest to face Voldemort, he had accepted the fact that he was going to die, without any resentment. He had no idea that he might be able to survive. If the Pro has failed to understand this aspect of Harry Potter's adventure, I will recommend that he re-read chapter 34 of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Just to reignite the memories of the readers:


Finally, the truth. Lying with his face pressed into the dusty carpet of the office where he had once thought he was learning the secrets of victory, Harry understood at last that he was not supposed to survive.[2]


When he faced death without any fear or resentment - he mastered death. This was the reason he got a choice whether he wanted to move on or return. This was the reason he was able to return.


Voldemort inside him: Pro has himself explained that Voldemort cannot hurt Harry inspite of being a part of him because of the intense love of purity of Harry's mind. Had Harry got attracted to dark arts at any stage, this natural defense against Voldemort would have been corroded and Voldemort would have been able to control him or kill him. Harry lives trough all the difficult times - and yet he manages to keep his mind free of the lust of power.


The purity of Harry's mind is the proof that he is the greatest wizard of all times. It is one of the many reasons why the readers should:


VOTE CON


Over to Famer for the summary and conclusion round.


====References===


1. Harry Potter and Order of Phoenix, Chapter 37


2. Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows, Chapter 34-The Forest Again.


Debate Round No. 3
famer

Pro

Thank you baggins once again for another interesting argument.


It appears to me that baggins has misunderstood me from my conclusion that he has, himself, quoted.


Allow me to make my quoted statement crystal clear to our readers:


If we follow the definition that I have just placed forth, I have, in round 2, attempted to prove that Severus Snape is a MORE anti-death eater character than Harry.”


This is the important word that my opponent has missed. From my arguments supplied I have “attempted” to prove that Snape is more anti-death eater than Harry, not that my arguments have proved that Snape is more anti-death eater. Whether I have or have not proved that Snape is a more anti-death eater character than Harry that is up to our voters to decide.


Counter-Rebuttals:



  • Snape risked his life: Although con does not see how Snape is a MORE anti-death eater character than Harry on basis on how much Snape has risked his life just to help out the good side that is up to our voters to decide. Con also states that Harry risked his life many times over fighting the dark arts. This is true, but most of the times, he was protected from the Fidelius Charm that was casted over Harry. Snape, on the other hand, was at more risk because he was not as well protected.

  • Snape helps Harry in fighting dark-arts: I understand Con’s doubt and response that many other people have helped Harry in fighting the dark arts, but I am arriving at my resolution based on the degree to which Snape helped Harry fight the dark arts in the entire series. Many people helped Harry during his tireless journey to take down the dark lord, but Snape helped Harry so much, I would consider that he even did more than Harry himself.


REBUTTALS


Against Dark arts from beginning: Con goes back to the point that I thought was finished with. All of us here agree that Snape WAS a death eater before the remorse he went through and that Harry was against the dark arts from the beginning (not specifically mentioned but what I believe to be an obvious fact).


But this is one of the major mistakes made by Snape. A similar mistake made by Harry was allowing Wormtail (Peter Pettigrew) to be “sent to Azkaban” but later escaping because of the mistake made by Harry’s bad choice [1].


I never said that Snape experienced remorse for his support for dark arts, but said he experienced remorse for what he informed Lord Voldemort. This is the point where Snape starts to become anti-death eater.


Con also stated that reason Snape lost Lily was because of his love for the dark arts. Snape lost Lily because he noted Voldemort of the first part of Professor Trelawney’s prophecy because it “concerned his master most deeply”. [2] This is not directly related to his love for the dark arts.


Also, if we speculate that Snape never informed his master about the prophecy, it is likely that Voldemort would have figured out what was contained in the prophecy in other ways (because as stated, it “concerned him most deeply”. That means he knows such a prophecy does exist). And, if we speculate further that Voldemort does not find out about the prophecy, James and Lily Potter would have probably ended up being killed by Voldemort because they won’t join forces with him.


The forgiving nature: Although the part that I consider it “unfair” to expect Snape to forgive James and Sirius for their school day rivalries is not exactly an argument, it was merely a response to my opponent’s argument that was put forth in Round 2. To quote baggin word-for-word of what he said: "Snape, on the other hand, never really forgave James or Sirius for school-days pranks."


Con also argues that it is Snape’s fault that Sirius died. However, most of the blame must be cast to Harry. Snape took the job of teaching Occlumency to Harry even with his hatred and Harry barely even tries to master Occlumency. Harry was clearly told every reason why he was given the Occlumency lessons but instead of even trying to learn, he decided to be too nosy and have a look at Snape’s deepest secrets hidden in the Pensieve.


It is unjust to think that Snape did wrong in this situation.


Little child, Big deeds: This argument is true and I therefore have nothing to disagree with.


The sacrifice: Con has stated that when Harry walked into the forest to face Voldemort, he accepted the fact that he was going to die. Even if this is true, the same applied to Snape when Voldemort explained to him that he must die so that he can become the “true master of the Elder wand”. Snape knew this was an utterly false statement, but allowed Voldemort to kill him to not reveal the secrets he knew.


Also, with Con’s statement that Harry had the choice to return or move on because he mastered death, I don’t agree. I was under the impression that Harry did not actually die, but allowed Voldemort to destroy the bit of his soul that remains in Harry’s body.


Voldemort inside him: Con’s argument that Harry’s protection would have corroded if he got attracted to the dark arts at any stage is a red herring.


Con has also stated that Harry mind is the proof that he is the greatest wizard of all times. We are arguing who is a more anti-death eater character, not who is a better wizard. Voldemort himself proved to be a very great (in terms of power) wizard himself, but definitely not anti-death eater.


CONCLUSION: This concludes my argument for the final round. It is in my belief Severus Snape was more “anti-evil” in the sense of being an anti-death eater after the death of Lily Evans. I have provided two PROMINENT reasons as to why Snape is more “anti-death eater” than Harry Potter himself. Here are a few things our readers should have a look at:



  1. Where would Harry be if Snape did not save him at his first quidditch match?

  2. Where would Harry be if Snape did not show Harry the sword of Gryffindor

  3. Where would Dumbledore/Harry or the order of the Phoenix be if Snape had not been spying for them?

  4. If Snape was given the knowledge of the Horcruxes and also how to destroy them, what would he be doing?


We all know that Snape WAS a death eater before he really tried to help the good side, for Lily. But all of my arguments are following the basis of what Snape has managed to do after Lily’s life was threatened. He hated Harry so much, yet did so much for him.


VOTING GUIDELINES: I would ask of the voters to vote on the overall quality of the debate and the arguments provided, but not on which side they are on.



References:



  1. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 19 The Servant of Lord Voldemort

  2. Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince Chapter 25 The Seer Overheard

baggins

Con

Thank you Famer, for your arguments.

In R2, I had challenged Pro, that he has only presented evidence about Snape being anti-death eater. This was not sufficient to meet the resolution which says Snape is MORE anti-death eater that Harry. In R3, Pro blatantly claimed that he had presented the evidence for Snape being MORE anti-death eater. However his claim was based on a non-sequitur, and I called him out on it.

In the final round, Pro claims that I misunderstood his arguments. What he 'really' meant was...

“If we follow the definition that I have just placed forth, I have, in round 2, attempted to prove that Severus Snape is a MORE anti-death eater character than Harry.”


This is the important word that my opponent has missed. From my arguments supplied I have “attempted” to prove that Snape is more anti-death eater than Harry, not that my arguments have proved that Snape is more anti-death eater.


I have no idea what he is trying to convey here. Going through his arguments, readers of the debate will notice that he has not presented any positive arguments to support his claim that Snape is MORE anti-death eater that Harry. That means he has never ATTEMPTED to prove that Snape is MORE anti-death eater than Harry.

===Rebuttals===
Here are my opponent’s arguments in a nutshell:
  • Snape risked his life: But others (including Harry) risked their life as well. So who risked their life more? Let voters decide.
  • Snape helped Harry: But others also helped Harry in his 'tireless journey' (my opponent's words). So helped him more? Let voters decide.
Readers of this debate will make their decisions based on arguments that we present. My opponent has not presented any arguments as to why Snape's contribution is MORE than that of Harry. The question before voters is - has Pro presented sufficient arguments to prove Snape is MORE anti-death eater than Harry. And the emphatic answer is a NO.

===Counter Rebuttals===
On other hand, I presented five good reasons why Harry is MORE anti-death eater than Snape. Pro has directly conceded one of them and tacitly accpted some of the others.

Against dark arts from beginning:
Harry was against dark arts from beginning. As a child, Snape was a supporter of Dark arts. This makes Harry better than Snape.

My opponent has highlighted Snape's remorse. Remorse may make Snape great. But the unanswerable question for my opponent is, how can remorse make Snape greater than Harry his role as anti-death eater - when Harry has never been seduced by the dark arts in first place!

To show the extent of Snape's love towards dark arts, I pointed out that Snape lost Lily due to his love for dark arts. Pro has failed to grasp the argument correctly. Snape lost Lily in school when Lily ended their friendship. Lily ended the friendship with Snape when he refused to give up dark arts at school. Lily told him [1]

I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends ... You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."


The forgiving nature:
Another reason I presented was that Harry is more forgiving than Snape.

My opponent has tacitly conceded this. However he attempts to cover up by makng a wild and ridiculous charge that actually Harry is responsible for Sirius's death. There is no way that such a conclusion can be drawn by any of the readers of the book.

Little child, big deeds:
My opponent conceded.

The sacrifice: Harry sacrificed his life - and walked towards death with open arms. My opponent is under the wrong impression that:
"I was under the impression that Harry did not actually die, but allowed Voldemort to destroy the bit of his soul that remains in Harry’s body. "

I will suggest that my opponent read chapter 33 and chapter 34 of the Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows again. When Harry faces, Voldemort, he is convinced that he is about to die. There is an intresting conversation between Harry and Dumbledore in Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows [2]

"But... But I should have died - I didn't defend myself! I meant to let him kill me!". "And that," said Dumbledore, "I think, made all the difference."


My opponent makes a new argument that Snape also sacrificed his life. This is a new argument in the last round, so I see no need to respond and readers are requested to ignore it.

Voldemort inside him:
Voldemort was part of Harry's body and Harry's mind. Inspite of that Harry is never attracted by dark arts. This Harry affirms Harry's role as the most prominent death-eater.

While wrongly claiming that my argument consists of red-herrings, Pro attempts to camouflage his own red-herring:

Con has also stated that Harry mind is the proof that he is the greatest wizard of all times. We are arguing who is a more anti-death eater character, not who is a better wizard.


Harry is one of the greatest wizards in the world. His major accomplishment in his life is his tireless fight against dark arts. It stands to reason that Harry is one of the greatest anti-death eater in the world.

===Conclusion===

My opponent did not present (or attempted to present) any valid argument to show that Snape is MORE anti-death eater than Harry.

I presented five good reasons to show that Harry should be considered MORE anti-death eater than Snape. At least one of the evidence was conceded by my opponent.

The resolution is negated.

Permit me finish by thanking Famer yet again for debating this issue with me. I hope that we will be debating again in the near future.

===References===
1. Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33
2. Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows, Chapter 34
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by famer 5 years ago
famer
@baggins

With my comment, i did make a mistake as to what i was really meaning. If i'm taking it from your side, I'm fairly sure that someone will take the challenge even though the majority of the audience may think it as an "unfair" debate in which i have given myself an advantage.

Just wanted the debate to be quickly accepted. Don't like to be kept waiting. Lol :p
Posted by PeacefulChaos 5 years ago
PeacefulChaos
Nice arguments, famer.

@baggins-

Yeah, pretty much. It doesn't matter what the resolution is, there will be someone to disagree with it, lol.
Posted by baggins 5 years ago
baggins
@ Famer

My apologies - if I was not very clear. You wrote in an earlier comment:

"but i doubt i'd have my challenge accepted if i took it from the perspective that Harry is more anti-evil."

And I responded to that...

"You will find some-one who disagrees with you - no matter what how simple and obvious your resolution is."
Posted by famer 5 years ago
famer
@baggins,
I don't know what you are trying get at. I know perfectly well that someone with disagree with me when it comes to this debate and you volunteered to be that person. Can you please explain to me what you mean because one of us is not understanding each other.
Posted by baggins 5 years ago
baggins
@ Famer
This is debate dot org (DDO). You will find some-one who disagrees with you - no matter what how simple and obvious your resolution is...
Posted by famer 5 years ago
famer
Lol PeacefulChaos. You're such a troll ^.^ Haha :)
Posted by PeacefulChaos 5 years ago
PeacefulChaos
Come on, everyone. Use your heads! Everyone knows that Voldemort was the most supportive of the anti-dark side.
Posted by famer 5 years ago
famer
Well i am actually a bit neutral with Snape and Harry with who is more anti-evil but i doubt i'd have my challenge accepted if i took it from the perspective that Harry is more anti-evil. Either way, i will attempt to convince my readers that Severus Snape is more anti-evil.

A note to my opponent baggins: First round is acceptance only! No arguments are to be submitted.
Posted by kyro90 5 years ago
kyro90
ಠ_ಠ I dont see how Snape could be more anti-evil.....
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Mak-zie 5 years ago
Mak-zie
famerbagginsTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: I agreed with Pro's arguments, but like everyone else has said, Pro did not compare Snape to Harry, but just stated how anti-death eater Snape was. Great arguments overall, though.
Vote Placed by PeacefulChaos 5 years ago
PeacefulChaos
famerbagginsTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to fulfill his BOP, which was to prove that Snape is MORE anti-death eater than Harry. Con won me over with the argument that Harry willingly walked to his death without knowing that Voldemort would kill the horcrux inside Harry and not Harry himself; however, Pro is the only one who used sources in this debate and he had superior grammar (Con kept putting unnecessary hyphens in his text).
Vote Placed by Greyparrot 5 years ago
Greyparrot
famerbagginsTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Harry never got the snake tattoo if I recall, did he ever follow the dark lord? Con says no.