The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
BunnyBabe10236
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Shakespeare poetry is overrated it is clever but emotionless

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
BunnyBabe10236
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/3/2013 Category: Arts
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,473 times Debate No: 36324
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (66)
Votes (2)

 

shakuntala

Pro

Shakespeare poetry is overrated it is clever but emotionless
Shakespeare as a lover would have been boring his love is in his head not his lions
he is clever without being passionate
he is clever without being emotionl
his poems have no soul no spirit no life or fire all they have is cleverness
Shakespeare poetry is only valued because western scholars value the mind over the lions
they value intelligence cleverness over emotion
emotion scares and unsettles most Western people
western scholars value the Appolonium over the Dyonisium

the history of the Christan West is the history of undervaluing emotion passions [the Dyonisium] and valuing intelligence cleverness [Appolonium]
that is why Shakespeare poetry is considered good and that is why they are overrated and emotionless

you only says Shakespeare poetry is good because you have been told by authorities it is good

If a scholar of English literature said Shakespeare poetry is over ated it is emotionless he/she would lose or not get an academic position

It is only because of tradition that Shakespeare poetry is said to be good

when people says Shakespeare poetry is good they are only parrots repeating the catechism they were taught at school -without any real idea why he is good

as this Debate org poster said
http://www.debate.org...

"You are correct. All art is equal in artistic value"
"Debating poetry is pointless. Art is subjective, so the argument always comes down to "I feel this way."

I will give an example from Shakespeare and Dean

Shakespeare sonnet

SONNET 18

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this and this gives life to thee.

first
its rhythm and lyrical nature are poor when compared to Dean -when you recite the poem you come across like a dead fish
second
it is meant to be about love yet its tone is emotionless no passion only clever words compared to Dean

thirdly
its language is prosaic and commonplace compared to Dean

From Dean
Layla-and-Majnun

http://www.scribd.com...
give thy lips that I can kiss
stare into my eyes to give me bliss
press thy breast against my breasts that I can hear the palpitating of thy heart
send shudders through my veins with the flutter of thy eye-lids
oh oh
the never ending fires of my desires
which all my tears canst put out
my heated flesh scorches the hot desert wind
as the fire to the wood my desires consume me o"er thee
with moans of love I shout
with the pain of love I shout
crazy with love for thee I long for thee alone

this poem is superior to SONNET 18
this poem is more lyrical than Shakespeare -when you recite the poem you sing with emotion unlike SONNET 18
this poem has a more passionate/emotional tone-this is a true love song-unlike SONNET 18
the language imaginative and alive and full of imagery-unlike SONNET 18

now you will just say sonnet 18 is better only because you have been told it is a good poem

also
no one on here is going to say Shakespeare poetry is overrated it is emotionless
for fear of seeming ridiculous -by going against received tradition
but we can have a bit of fun in debating-all you will really give is catechism you were taught at school -without any real idea why he is good
BunnyBabe10236

Con

I agree that Shakespeare's work is clever. However, I strongly disagree that it lacks emotion. It is full of passion and it is obvious that if his work had been emotionless, his plays would have been unpopular. Shakespeare's plays are played more than any other playwright- obviously they are popular.

We have no concrete information as to what Shakespeare was like as a lover, however he was married to a woman named Anne Hathaway and she was 9 years older than him, suggesting there must have been some romance between the couple.

His poems are emotional- let us take the first line of this sonnet:
"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"
When reading it, you can hear the stressed words, and this line clearly is passionate. It is obviously tender, loving and gentle. It is full of fond and loving feelings.

Now I shall provide another poem to prove they have soul and spirit, this one taken from his play Twelfth Night (1):

If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die.
That strain again! it had a dying fall:
O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound,
That breathes upon a bank of violets,
Stealing and giving odour! Enough; no more:
'Tis not so sweet now as it was before.
O spirit of love! how quick and fresh art thou,
That, notwithstanding thy capacity
Receiveth as the sea, nought enters there,
Of what validity and pitch soe'er,
But falls into abatement and low price,
Even in a minute: so full of shapes is fancy
That it alone is high fantastical

The line " O spirit of love! how quick and fresh art thou!" shows how madly in love the particular character is and also, the happiness he feels now he is in love by using the word 'fresh'.

I disagree with your statements regarding the Western Scholars as whether they value his work or not, Shakespeare's work is full of emotion and drama.

I believe Shakespeare's work is good because his plays are full of drama and romance, and that he uses clever techniques and creates complex characters. Whether the authorities think so does not affect me.

Shakespeare's work reflects his characters, his love, his passion and explores his ideas.
Dean's work is good and thought provoking, however it lacks the emotion that is in Shakespeare's and his originality.

This is why I believe Shakespeare's poems are superior to Dean's, also, Shakespeare's has a better flowing rhythm, I believe.

In conclusion, I believe Shakespeare is not overrated- he was the greatest playwright in the UK of his time. All his works are full of emotion and drama, thanks to the perspective they are told from and the language and structure used.

Sources:
(1)- Source-http://www.shakespeare-monologues.org...
(2)-Source-en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hathaway_(Shakespeare's_wife)
Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"Now I shall provide another poem to prove they have soul and spirit, this one taken from his play Twelfth Night (1):

If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die.
That strain again! it had a dying fall:
O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound,
That breathes upon a bank of violets,
Stealing and giving odour! Enough; no more:
'Tis not so sweet now as it was before.
O spirit of love! how quick and fresh art thou,
That, notwithstanding thy capacity
Receiveth as the sea, nought enters there,
Of what validity and pitch soe'er,
But falls into abatement and low price,
Even in a minute: so full of shapes is fancy
That it alone is high fantastical'

it is by comparing Shakespeare to Dean that you see clearly why he is overrated and emotionless

here is the contrast

From Madam butterfly
http://www.scribd.com...

Love I long for thee the days are long
Empty are my nights I long for thy love cooing song
I long
Give thy lips to my lips to kiss
That I may run my tongue along thy lips edge in bliss
Wrap me in thy arms that thee may feel the beatings of my heart
Feel the thuddings of my blood
Feel the rageings of my love
Wrap me in thy arms that thee may feel the longings of my heart
Oh lover bend thy head to my breast
That I may through thy hair my fingers curl
And o"er thy brow my breath to caress
That I may to thy eyes my heated lips do press
And in my eyes heated lids thee furl
Lift up thy eyes to mine

again compared to this Shakespeare's clever words and monotonous iambic beat is like a dead fish
you can see clearly here and feel madam butterflies passion emotion for her love

Shakes pears sonnet is just objective description with no indication of his subjective feelings or emotion

Madam Butterfly takes us to the heart of her anguish and longing -nothing like that is in the both sonnets

all his sonnets are clever objective words

this
If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,

does not compare to this for emotion

That I may through thy hair my fingers curl
And o"er thy brow my breath to caress
That I may to thy eyes my heated lips do press
And in my eyes heated lids thee furl

one line of Dean is worth all of Shakespeare's sonnet for emotion
BunnyBabe10236

Con

I strongly believe that Shakespeare is not overrated and that his works are emotional and passionate.

Your point:
"it is by comparing Shakespeare to Dean that you see clearly why he is overrated and emotionless"

Whilst both are fantastic poets, this debate is about Shakespeare's poems, not comparing him to Dean's works.

Shakespeare's work is not monotonous, and he varies the length of his lines. Also, he writes from many perspectives, which adds drama and even more passion to his poems.

Shakespeare does write in iambic pentameter and also sometimes uses rhyme and rhythm, he also varies language and structure- his different techniques make his works interesting.

Shakespeare is not overrated. He wrote many plays, hundreds of sonnets and was Queen Elizabeth's favourite playwright.
Let us look briefly at another famous author- Charles Dickens
He wrote many plays and stories, was one of the most famous authors of his time, yet he is not overrated.
Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"Whilst both are fantastic poets, this debate is about Shakespeare's poems, not comparing him to Dean's works."

and up to a point con has a point
but all I am doing is showing how and why Shakespeare's poetry is overrated- because it is emotionless

I do this demonstration -showing Shakespeare's poetry emotionless
by comparing Shakespeare to Dean
Deans poetry is highly emotional
Deans poetry shows you clearly what real emotional poetry is
thus
showing by the contrast that Shakespeare's poetry is clearly seen to be emotionless

it is as if you had only tasted cheap wine and thought that was what a good wine is
but when you taste real good wine you then see by the contrast that the cheap wine is not that good after all

the Western world has been tasting Shakespeare it has thought his poetry is emotional
but
with Dean coming along you get see what real emotional poetry is
thus you see that Shakespeare has really been overrated for hundreds of years
BunnyBabe10236

Con

I agree with your views about comparing the two poets, however this debate, I feel, is going slightly off topic. You could create a debate about Dean versus Shakespeare, but this debate is about whether Shakespeare's work is emotional.

A few reasons as to why I believe this is:
1. "If music be the food of love, play on"
Through this line, we can tell that this character is in love. He obviously is full of passion towards the people he loves.
2. I will now provide examples as to the emotions Shakespeare shows through verse.
Self love/ arrogance-If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die.
That strain again! it had a dying fall:
O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound,
That breathes upon a bank of violets,
Stealing and giving odour! Enough; no more:
'Tis not so sweet now as it was before.
O spirit of love! how quick and fresh art thou,
That, notwithstanding thy capacity
Receiveth as the sea, nought enters there,
Of what validity and pitch soe'er,
But falls into abatement and low price,
Even in a minute: so full of shapes is fancy
That it alone is high fantastical.

You can tell by reading this that the character is oblivious to the world around him and only cares about himself.

Example 2- Why should I not, had I the heart to do it,
Like to the Egyptian thief at point of death,
Kill what I love?--a savage jealousy
That sometimes savours nobly. But hear me this:
Since you to non-regardance cast my faith,
And that I partly know the instrument
That screws me from my true place in your favour,
Live you the marble-breasted tyrant still;
But this your minion, whom I know you love,
And whom, by heaven I swear, I tender dearly,
Him will I tear out of that cruel eye,
Where he sits crowned in his master's spite.
Come, boy, with me; my thoughts are ripe in mischief:
I'll sacrifice the lamb that I do love,
To spite a raven's heart within a dove.

Here, we can easily tell that this character is furious, as he makes threats, false accusations and it is full of hate towards another character.

These two examples clearly show emotion and drama and are full of passion that a writer couldn't write without being full of feeling and soul.

The works are all from the site: http://www.shakespeare-monologues.org...
Debate Round No. 3
shakuntala

Pro

your two examples show exactly why Shakespeare is emotionless
you mistake emotional words for being emotional
I can say
"my heart feels sore with anguish and I pine away with grief"
that is as unemotional as the examples you gave
because
just because I use emotional words like sore anguish grief does not make my sentence emotional

as I said if you contrast Shakespeare with Dean you can then clearly see what is real emotion and what is clever words strung together in emotionless lines
BunnyBabe10236

Con

You say:
"you mistake emotional words for being emotional"

I disagree.

Shakespeare does use a huge range of vocab, and the choice of language an author uses really reflects their passion and the emotions they wish to convey. Shakespeare uses such a large range and that shows how skilled he is in writing emotional poetry.

You say:
"as I said if you contrast Shakespeare with Dean you can then clearly see what is real emotion and what is clever words strung together in emotionless lines"

I strongly disagree that Shakespeare does not string words together. All his verse is written in iambic pentameter and sometimes it rhymes- I will provide an excerpt from one of his works to prove this.

Taken from: http://www.shakespeare-monologues.org...

I love thee so, that, maugre all thy pride,
Nor wit nor reason can my passion hide.
Do not extort thy reasons from this clause,
For that I woo, thou therefore hast no cause,
But rather reason thus with reason fetter,
Love sought is good, but given unsought better

You can hear happiness, love and humbleness in this excerpt thanks to Shakespeare's choice of language and the fact that it is even written in couplets shows how fantastic Shakespeare was. It is impossible not to find emotion in this piece.
Debate Round No. 4
shakuntala

Pro

con says
"I strongly disagree that Shakespeare does not string words together. All his verse is written in iambic pentameter and sometimes it rhymes- I will provide an excerpt from one of his works to prove this.

Taken from: http://www.shakespeare-monologues.org......

I love thee so, that, maugre all thy pride,
Nor wit nor reason can my passion hide.
Do not extort thy reasons from this clause,
For that I woo, thou therefore hast no cause,
But rather reason thus with reason fetter,
Love sought is good, but given unsought better

You can hear happiness, love and humbleness in this excerpt thanks to Shakespeare's choice of language and the fact that it is even written in couplets shows how fantastic Shakespeare was. It is impossible not to find emotion in this piece."

con says
"All his verse is written in iambic pentameter and sometimes it rhymes"

the iambic beat on its own conveys neither happiness love or despair
these emotions are only indicated by the words which make up the iambic beat- and words alone do not make a poem emotional

if words did
then any one could say to you
"I love you" now you would not believe a person was showing emotion just by saying "I love you"

these lines
"I love thee so, that, maugre all thy pride,
Nor wit nor reason can my passion hide."

these lines are emotionless just saying " i love thee" does not covey any emotion
just as saying
"my passion hide" does not covey any passion
just by using words like "love" "passion" does not make the poem passionate or emotional

that poem you gave is clearly unemotional though it talks of love
it is clearly not passionate though it talks of passion

you seem to think that it is by using emotional words a poem becomes emotional-you are wrong and these poems of Shakespeare show this clearly

as I said Shakespeare's poems are clever but unemotional
they are made up of emotional words strung together in a monotonous iambic beat which conveys no emotion

again you can see the difference what real emotion is with this poem extract

from
Kissing
http://www.scribd.com...

"Oh my love kiss me tight clasp thy lips in passions bite
Lips meet lips in blissful kiss
Lips to lips burst into flame
Exquisite incarnate bliss
Heated flesh infinite joy
Rapture seethes throughout the brain
Within my veins loves fires flare which naught canst destroy
Thy serpentine hair encircles my limbs
Entwines my arms neck and shins
Thy blossoms treasure lies encircled by my kiss
A swelling tide deep within the floral abyss
Thy perfumed sighs enthralls my senses bliss
Languid luxurious succulent bloom

the rhythmic lyrical lines sing out music of love emotion
the varying line lengths capture the lovers varying emotional state

all Shakespeare's poem do is again is string emotional words together in a monotonous iambic beat which conveys no emotion

I will prove it more clearly
take this line
""Oh my love kiss me tight clasp thy lips in passions bite"- this line conveys deep emotion through it rhythm
now if I omit the word love you will still get an emotional feeling
Oh my ... kiss me tight clasp thy lips in passions light

now do the same for Shakespeare's line
"I love thee so, that, maugre all thy pride"-you are saying this conveys the emotion love
now if I omit the word love you will get have no idea of what emotion he is talking about
""I ... thee so, that, maugre all thy pride"

you can see clearly in the case of Dean the emotion is dependent on the rhythm of the line not any particular word
but
for Shakespeare the emotion is solely based on one word not the iambic beat- and the iambic beat is like a dead fish

again
the iambic beat on its own conveys neither happiness love or despair
these emotions are only indicated by the words which make up the iambic beat
BunnyBabe10236

Con

You say:
"these emotions are only indicated by the words which make up the iambic beat- and words alone do not make a poem emotional"
If words do not make a poem emotional than what does?
A poem without any words is not very effective or passionate- and the author's choice of language reflect him and the emotions/message he is trying to convey. Also, the iambic pentameter is important as that is what officially makes it verse- and this is one of the techniques Shakespeare uses a lot. That is why I commented on it so much, as structure is also an important part of verse, however that is not the best way to communicate emotion, so I will speak about his choice of language.

"I will prove it more clearly
take this line
""Oh my love kiss me tight clasp thy lips in passions bite"- this line conveys deep emotion through it rhythm
now if I omit the word love you will still get an emotional feeling
Oh my ... kiss me tight clasp thy lips in passions light

now do the same for Shakespeare's line
"I love thee so, that, maugre all thy pride"-you are saying this conveys the emotion love
now if I omit the word love you will get have no idea of what emotion he is talking about
""I ... thee so, that, maugre all thy pride"

you can see clearly in the case of Dean the emotion is dependent on the rhythm of the line not any particular word"

I do not think you chose the best example.When a word is used as a noun, it is not as important in the sentence, however the verb is a vital part of the sentence. The word love can be used as a verb or a noun, and if you wish to use it in an example, it should be used as two verbs or two nouns to be fully justified. You used a verb and a noun, therefore it was not the best comparison in my opinion.

"My conscience hath a thousand several tongues,
And every tongue brings in a several tale,
And every tale condemns me for a villain.
Perjury, perjury, in the high'st degree
Murder, stem murder, in the direst degree;
All several sins, all used in each degree,
Throng to the bar, crying all, Guilty! guilty!
I shall despair. There is no creature loves me;
And if I die, no soul shall pity me:
Nay, wherefore should they, since that I myself
Find in myself no pity to myself?
Methought the souls of all that I had murder'd
Came to my tent; and every one did threat
To-morrow's vengeance on the head of Richard."

This is a very good example. In this extract ( written in verse), you don't even need to know the plot to know that the character is scared, confused, guilty and to some extent in despair. You can tell he feels isolated and helpless, thanks to the line:
"There is no creature loves me,"
The word creature shows us how despairing this character must be and without doubt, this proves that Shakespeare's verse is emotional and has life and soul.

The poems you use-while they are fantastic- do not seem to show feeling, they tend to describe physical aspects of love and seem to be quite similar to Shakespeare in terms of emotional words however I don't want to go of topic.

In conclusion- I believe that Shakespeare's verse is very emotional and that he uses many different techniques to emphasise emotional moments and overall, his work is full of passion and life.
Debate Round No. 5
66 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Hatstand 3 years ago
Hatstand
*poetry
Posted by Hatstand 3 years ago
Hatstand
@MysticEgg

While the appreciation of peotry is largely subjective (although it's literary value is a bit different) the fact that the voting system is structured around the strength of the arguments, not their content, means that sonething like this could be argued and properly judged.
Posted by Hatstand 3 years ago
Hatstand
"ok
I thank you for the discussion it was fun and very enjoyable
cheers"

A rather abrupt turnaround, but okay. I hope you enjoyed this discussion to some extent, and I hope that it helps you to argue these topics in the future. You proved yourself, and Dean, to be more than I was expecting.
Posted by MysticEgg 3 years ago
MysticEgg
Appreciation for art is subjective so the person here can not be a logical winner. The winner would only be the person who shares the same taste with the majority of voters.
Posted by shakuntala 3 years ago
shakuntala
it s said
"It is my personal belief, at this point in time, that Shakespeare is superior to Dean. I have told you why, and you have not matched my explanation like I matched yours. Courage has nothing to do with it."

ok
I thank you for the discussion it was fun and very enjoyable
cheers
Posted by Hatstand 3 years ago
Hatstand
"the real point is
you have not the courage to say Dean s poem is more passionate more emotional more full of fire and life than Shakespeare's sonnet 18 and go against the tradition for fear of appearing ridiculous"

It is my personal belief, at this point in time, that Shakespeare is superior to Dean. I have told you why, and you have not matched my explanation like I matched yours. Courage has nothing to do with it.
Posted by Hatstand 3 years ago
Hatstand
The point where your argument for my supposed bias falls apart is that before this I wouldn't have even accredited Dean as a poet. Now I'm willing to, in front of witnesses if it ever comes up, because of the argument you have made. If you prove further that Dean IS in fact superior to Shakespeare, then I shall advocate him unashamedly.
Posted by shakuntala 3 years ago
shakuntala
the real point is
you have not the courage to say Dean s poem is more passionate more emotional more full of fire and life than Shakespeare's sonnet 18 and go against the tradition for fear of appearing ridiculous
Posted by Hatstand 3 years ago
Hatstand
Dean has his base worked out. I'm willing to admit that. I'm not saying he's not respectable at what he does, I'm just saying that his work isn't AS GOOD as Shakespeare's. And I resent the fact that you think that just because I stand by my opinions (which I formed on my own) I am following the herd.
Posted by shakuntala 3 years ago
shakuntala
it is said
"Literary techniques are used to convey a meaning beyond the text - true.

Rhythm and onomatopoeia are examples of literary techniques that appear in the Dean poem you have shown - true.

Every literary technique implies a new layer - false."

look lets bring this to the real point
you have not the courage to say Shakespeare is overrated and go against the tradition for fear of appearing ridiculous
thats is all your comments have shown

as for Dean the same thing
you have not the courage to say Dean is good and go against the tradition for fear of appearing ridiculous
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Oromagi 3 years ago
Oromagi
shakuntalaBunnyBabe10236Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: A poet with no lyrical sense is no poet. A debater with no common sense is no debater
Vote Placed by ModusTollens 3 years ago
ModusTollens
shakuntalaBunnyBabe10236Tied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con is correct to defend Shakespeare, especially in the context of a comparison to Dean. To say that Shakespeare is emotionless is to misread him entirely, as Con points out very effectively. The one point on which Con is completely backwards is to concede that the poems of Dean are ""fantastic." That is utter nonsense.