The Instigator
KingDebater369
Pro (for)
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The Contender
DarthVitiosus
Con (against)
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Shanks is stronger than Black Beard (One Piece)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/22/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,492 times Debate No: 67464
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

KingDebater369

Pro

Hello to all. I will take the side of Shanks in this debate, trying to prove that he is stronger than Black Beard. My opponent will try to prove that Black Beard is stronger than Shanks.

NOTE: It is important that everyone understands that when I say "strongest", i'm talking about overall Combat Ability. That means, strength, speed, agility, intelligence, so on and so forth. I don't mean just pure destructive power.

Anyone is welcome to accept, but only accept if you are serious. =)

R1: Acceptance

R2: Arguments

R3: Rebuttals

R4: Conclusions
DarthVitiosus

Con

ACCEPTED!
Debate Round No. 1
KingDebater369

Pro

Thank you for accepting the debate. I hope to have a lot of fun =)
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Intro:
We know a couple of things about both of these characters. For one, we know that Shanks has Busoshuku an Haoshoku Haki. Although it is safe to assume that he probably has Kenbunshoku Haki as well, since we haven't seen it, we're going to assume he doesn't have it. With Blackbeard, we know he has two devil fruits, the Guru Guru no mi and the Yami Yami no mi. He probably has more than that, since he went devil fruit hunting, but since we haven't seen him with more than two devil fruit. Also, as far as we know, Shanks has no devil fruit. Black Beard has no Haki. These are just a couple of things that I wanted to note.

Contention 1: Haki > Devil Fruit
In the world of One Piece, the mastering of Haki is greater than the power of a Devil Fruit. Now, obviously there are many different factors involved with this, but what I'm trying to say is that in general, Haki > Devil Fruit. Allow me to explain this point.

Let's go back to the beginning of the One Piece series, where it started in East Blue. In East Blue, Devil Fruits were considered legends and myths. People didn't even know they were real. If someone had a Devil Fruit, they would be amazed, and would assume that this person had immense power.

However, as the series progressed, Luffy and the crew went onto the Grand Line. And in the Grand Line, things were quite a bit different. There are tons of Devil Fruit users left and right. Devil Fruits users of all types are on the Grand Line, and simply having a Devil Fruit means nothing. But the use of Haki, is relatively unknown. The idea of hitting a Logia User, is just a myth.

Then, once you get to the New World, you need to have haki to get anywhere. Pekoms, from Big Mom's crew, even said that "Logia users who think they are invincible won't go far." (That's just from what I remember, the exact quote might be a bit different, but you get the idea). The point is, Haki seems to be the last step in one's combat progression. And thus, the mastering of Haki trumps Devil Fruit.

I understand that simply having Haki isn't going help you. But neither is simply having a devil fruit. Obviously there are a variety of factors involved. A beginner in learning Haki probably would lose to someone who has spend years mastering his Devil Fruit and vice versa. But of course in our case, we know the power levels.

Contention 2: Shank's Haki
Shanks's Haki is imense, and this is the main reason he is a yonko. He is the best Haki user in all of One Piece, and I will prove that he is in this contention.

1. First, Shanks has Haoshoku Haki, something only one in a million people posess. And as far as we know, he can use it better than any other Haosoku Haki user. For example, when Shanks was boarding White Beard's ship, a large amount of White Beard's crew (Note that these are experienced men who have all survived in the New World) fell unconcious. Also, White Beard's ship also began to break, simply by Shanks being there. Only the stronger part of White Beard's crew didn't faint, noting how strong Shanks's Haki was.

Also, in an SBS, Oda mentioned that could have knocked out all 100,000 pirates and fishmen opposing the Straw Hats during the Fishman Island Arc with his Haoushoku Haki (Luffy managed to overwhelm 50,000).

2. Second, Shanks has Busoshoku Haki. When Shanks and White Beard clahshed their weapons, the "heavens" above them split. Now, note that Shanks's sword, which is a saber, is extremely basic. It's not one of the graded swords or anything like that. Just a basic sword, it looks like something a marine soldier would have. The fact that Shanks was able to clash with White Beard's huge weapon (with only one arm, mind you), suggests how much Busoshoku Haki was imbdued into that strike.

Also, at Marineford, Shanks stopped Akainu's Magma Fist with relative ease.

Contention 3: Black Beard's Admittance:
Black Beard himself admitted that he couldn't fight Shanks. This was after he obtained the Guru Guru no mi. When Black Beard obtained the Guru Guru no mi, he went on a power high. He was tilting seas and just destroying everything, trying to sink the whole island. But, when Shanks showed up, Black Beard considered a fight, but then declined. He himself admitted that he was not ready for a fight with Shanks at that point in time, despite him having both devil fruits. This, must mean that Shanks is stronger than Black Beard.

Conclusion:
I have three basic points:

- Haki is greater than Devil Fruit powers, if mastered correctly and to the highest point

- Shanks is a master of Haki, and has showcased Haki to an extent far greater than we have seen with anyone else

- Black Beard himself admitted that he wasn't ready to fight Blak Beard despite having two devil fruits at the time.

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Can't wait for rebuttals =)
DarthVitiosus

Con

INTRODUCTION & PREMISES:
I as Con will show that Shanks is not stronger than Blackbeard.

ARGUMENTS:
#1. Blackbeard is Strong as Whitebeard.....At Least
Blackbeard is as strong as Whitebeard ever since he absorbed the Gura Gura no Mi fruit. We do know that Whitebeard actually fought Shanks and we know that there wasn't a decisive conclusion since they were both Yonko. If Blackbeard absorbed Whitebeard's powers, we can't see that Shanks would beat Blackbeard definitively in the post Whitebeard War period, the Timeskip.

#2. Blackbeard's Strength is Unknown
Not only has Blackbeard absorbed Whitebeard's powers, he may have absorbed many other people's powers since the Whitebeard War ended.

2a. What We do Know
We only know that Blackbeard has two powers at least. Those two powers would be the Yami Yami no Mi and the Gura Gura no Mi powers. The Yami Yami no Mi fruit gave Blackbeard the power to control darkness. Blackbeard can absorb powers as well as create black holes. We have seen Blackbeard use this power against Portgas D. Ace, Strawhat Luffy, and even Whitebeard. The Gura Gura no Mi fruit gave Blackbeard the power to cause tremors in the air and cause tremors in the world itself. After all, let us remember Whitebeard turned Marineford upside down when he had the Gura Gura no Mi powers. Blackbeard now has th capacity to use the "Shima Yurashi" attack to turn an area upside down. Blackbeard had no training in the use of the Gura gura no Mi powers when he first used it. Blackbeard was able to block a punch from Marine Fleet Admiral Sengoku during the Whitebeard War.

Blackbeard would later encounter Shanks during the Whitebeard War and denying wanting to fight him. But post timeskip, Blackbeard's powers are unkown. it is safe to assume, he has become stronger because he has become a Yonko.

#3. Blackbeard is a Yonko, One of the Four Emperors
Shanks is a Yonko and now so is Blackbeard. At the very least, Blackbeard now equals Shanks in terms of strength if he is not stronger.

Debate Round No. 2
KingDebater369

Pro

Thank you Con. I will now rebut to your arguments.
============================================================================
#1. Blackbeard is as strong as Whitebeard... at least
Rebuttal 1: First, I think it's important to note that it takes YEARS to master one's devil fruit ability. Of course, some fruits are better than others at combat (most logia are great for combat), and to use some fruits, it takes a bit of thinking (Gomu Gomu no mi, for example, isn't that great for just straight up combat, but can be used to fight). The thing is that, Blackbeard has only had 2 years with his Devil Fruit, and I don't believe that that is enough time to master his devil fruit powers. Let me go into some detail.

Luffy has had his devil fruit for many years (at least 10) to get to where he is today. Now, I do understand (like I stated earlier), that the Gomu Gomu no mi is not the most dangerous devil fruit out thee, but still, it's a good example. Another good example would be Ace's Devil Fruit, the Mera Mera no mi. Ace was strong and all, but at the end of the day, he lacked the asthetic of other logia users. For example, he couldn't travel as his own element (which is something crocodile could do). Even he hadn't mastered his devil fruit to the fullest extent.

Whitebeard, we can assume safely, has had his devil fruit for years, and has mastered it to a great extent. Blackbeard has had it for such a small amount of time, there is no way he is as good as Whitebeard at controlling the Guru Guru no mi. Simply having a devil fruit is not the same as being able to use it to a great extent. Sometimes, users with a weak devil fruit beat users with a strong devil fruit because of their training.


#2. Blackbeard's Strength is Unknown
Rebuttal 1: Shanks's power is unkonwn as well. For all we know, he could have obtained some strong devil fruit. I believe, that we should just be going off of what we do know.

#3. What we do know
Rebuttal 1: And with all of the crazy powers that he has, tilting seas, nullifying devil fruit powers, trying to sink Marineford, and all of the other crazy stuff, he still isn't ready to fight Shanks. He admits it himself. If admittance itself isn't proof enough that Shanks is stronger than Blackbeard, than I don't know what is.

Rebuttal 2: Furthermore, going back to the 2nd contention my opponent made, why exactly is Blackbeard going Devil Fruit hunting to get more powers? It's understood that he wants to be more powerful, but if he really is the strongest man in the world, than why bother? The only reason for him hunting more devil fruits is because he doesn't feel that his power is strong enough. The main reason, I believe, that Blackbeard went devil fruit hunting was to make sure that he could have enough power to beat Shanks. Especially because that seems to be his only competitor.

#4. Blackbeard is a Yonko
Reubttal 1: It's understable that he is a yonko, but honestly, Blackbeard killed Whitebeard after Whitebeard was already VERY injured. I think he's powerful enough to be a yonko, but I don't think that's enough justification to say that he is the same level.

Rebuttal 2: It is also stated by the gorosei that Shanks is one of the few that is capable of defeating Blackbeard.


DarthVitiosus

Con

REBUTTALS:

"Contention 1: Haki> Devil Fruit"
"Contention 2: Shank's Haki"

My opponent brought up the point that Haki is necessary to progress in the New World. My opponent also implies Haki is superior to Devil Fruit. I disagree profusely. Notice how my opponent never explained what Haki actually is. Silvers Rayleigh give a good description when he explained it to Straw Hat Luffy: ""Haki" is a power that lies dormant in all the world's creatures... "Presence", "fighting spirit" and "intimidation"... It is not different from the things that humans can naturally sense such as these... 'The act of not doubting'. That is strength![1]." Red Haired Shanks may have Haki but Blackbeard has the Gura Gura No Mi fruit. What would prevent Blackbeard from stealing the powers of any Haki user?

[1]http://onepiece.wikia.com...

My opponent when on to explained that Red Haired Shanks stopped Akainu's Magma Fist with "relative ease" during the Whitebeard War. My opponent does not explain the context at all. Red Haired Shanks was able to stop a punch from an unsuspecting opponent. Red Haired Shanks was not fighting a fair fight at all.



"Contention 3: Black Beard's Admittance"

I refuted this in my Round 2 argument. I will post it again here: "Blackbeard would later encounter Shanks during the Whitebeard War and denying wanting to fight him. But post time skip, Blackbeard's powers are unknown. it is safe to assume, he has become stronger because he has become a Yonko. " The Whitebeard War was two years ago from the current One Piece storyline. Blackbeard probably has become far stronger during those two years.

Let us not forget, Blackbeard's powers and progress have accelerated at a fast rate. When we first are introduced to Blackbeard long before the time skip during the Jaya Arc, Blackbeard was a captain of a small crew known as the Blackbeard Pirates which included Blackbeard himself, Doc Q, Jesus Burgess, Lafitte, and Van Augur. Before that we know that Blackbeard was an insignificant member of the Whitebeard Pirates working under Portgas D. Ace. Then we know that after Blackbeard defected from the Whitebeard Pirates and established his own crew after he stole the Gura Gura No Mi fruit. Blackbeard and his crew eventually rampaged through the Kingdom of Drum Island with ease some time after that point.

Some time after Enies Lobby, the government saw Blackbeard's crew as being strong enough to become a Shichibukai/Warlord. Blackbeard and his crew were able to defeat "Fire Fist" Ace and brought him forward before the government for execution. Blackbeard eventually betrayed the government during the time of the Whitebeard War. During that time, Blackbeard absorbed Whitebeard's powers. Two years later, Blackbeard has become a Yonko in the New World. Blackbeard has gained so much power within a short period of time.

"First, I think it's important to note that it takes YEARS to master one's devil fruit ability....The thing is that, Blackbeard has only had 2 years with his Devil Fruit, and I don't believe that that is enough time to master his devil fruit powers. Let me go into some detail."

What proof does pro have that it takes years to master one's devil fruit ability? If this was true, why was Blackbeard able to defeat Ace when he did not have his power for years?

"Luffy has had his devil fruit for many years (at least 10) to get to where he is today. Now, I do understand (like I stated earlier), that the Gomu Gomu no mi is not the most dangerous devil fruit out thee, but still, it's a good example. Another good example would be Ace's Devil Fruit, the Mera Mera no mi. Ace was strong and all, but at the end of the day, he lacked the asthetic of other logia users. For example, he couldn't travel as his own element (which is something crocodile could do). Even he hadn't mastered his devil fruit to the fullest extent."

This is an equivocacy. Blackbeard is far more skilled than Straw Hat Luffy. Blackbeard was a Shichibukai and now Blackbeard is a Yonko. Straw Hat Luffy and Ace are not comparable to Blackbeard in terms of skill and progression.

"Shanks's power is unknown as well. For all we know, he could have obtained some strong devil fruit. I believe, that we should just be going off of what we do know."

That is true that we don't know Shanks' power. However what great accomplishments has Shanks done in the last couple of years since the time skip? Why should we believe that Shanks has become stronger?

"And with all of the crazy powers that he has, tilting seas, nullifying devil fruit powers, trying to sink Marineford, and all of the other crazy stuff, he still isn't ready to fight Shanks. He admits it himself. If admittance itself isn't proof enough that Shanks is stronger than Blackbeard, than I don't know what is."

This is misleading, Blackbeard admitted that before he was a Yonko during the Whitebeard War. Blackbeard has clearly become stronger since the Whitebeard War if he has become a Yonko. The Whitebeard War was two years ago according to the current timeline.

"It's understood that he wants to be more powerful, but if he really is the strongest man in the world, than why bother? The only reason for him hunting more devil fruits is because he doesn't feel that his power is strong enough. The main reason, I believe, that Blackbeard went devil fruit hunting was to make sure that he could have enough power to beat Shanks. Especially because that seems to be his only competitor."

This is conjecture that has no basis from what I know of One Piece. It is only known that Blackbeard absorbed the powers of Whitebeard. Who has Blackbeard gone hunting? Also who said Blackbeard was the strongest in the world? Shanks is Blackbeard's only competitor? What proof does Pro have to make that claim?

"I think he's powerful enough to be a yonko, but I don't think that's enough justification to say that he is the same level."

That is Pro's opinion and I will stick to my case on this one.

"It is also stated by the gorosei that Shanks is one of the few that is capable of defeating Blackbeard."

In what chapter or episode was this stated?
Debate Round No. 3
KingDebater369

Pro

KingDebater369 forfeited this round.
DarthVitiosus

Con

Extend all arguments.

Conclusion:

Pro failed to establish that Red Haired Shanks was stronger than Blackbeard. At best, we must conclude that Red Haired Shanks is may be equal to Blackbeard or inferior to Blackbeard as we know that Blackbeard has became stronger. There is no evidence making us believe that Red Haired Shanks is stronger than Blackbeard. Pro did not address a single one of my points about the post-timeskip Blackbeard. Pro has failed to meet his burden of proof on the resolution.

Vote Con and watch Blackbeard take on Whitebeard.



Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Usoninja 2 years ago
Usoninja
How was it unfair against akainu when shanks blocked his attack, he blocked the whole force of the attack that's not unfair
Posted by Greener49 2 years ago
Greener49
lol Black beard would win because he was a real person Shanks is a fictional cataract.
Posted by YassineB 2 years ago
YassineB
- There is not much evidence to judge accurately Shanks power, we haven't seen him in a serious combat, with the exception of his momentary clash with White Beard & Akainu.
- Similarly, there is not much info, at least updated info, about the powers of Black Beard.
=> Nonetheless I am on your side in this one, Shanks would definitely destroy Black Beard if they ever fought.
No votes have been placed for this debate.