The Instigator
ASB
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
Alex
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Shaq was Batman, Kobe was Robin, if the Kobe now replaced the Kobe then this would still be the case

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/6/2011 Category: Sports
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,860 times Debate No: 14299
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

ASB

Pro

Everyone knows that Kobe Bryant is he greatest player of all-time right... so we know that he is not. Shaq did not need Kobe to win yet Kobe needed Shaq to win.
If I remember correctly the saying was let Kobe get his and worry about guarding Shaq. This was said because Kobe then like now tends to over shoot to the point were he has to rely on his team to get points rather than him giving his team mates a chance. One playoff game where Kobe lost trying to get his team mates more involved, reporters asked Kobe why he decided to pass the ball and cause his team to lose rather than shoot as he was doing in the first half. This guy not word for word basically replied by saying that his coach told him that he was not passing the ball enough. Kobe decided to pass himself into a loss eventually getting his team eliminated from the playoffs. Shaq was so hard to stop. Game footage and stats will prove this point that Shaq was more efficient than Kobe ever will be.

My opponent will give you some facts by saying that Shaq never won before he had Kobe or that Kobe won championships without Shaq. But my opponent will just seem to forget that Lamar Odom, Gasol, and just recently Artest were playing for this team. These people for their teams before the Lakers were the go to people for offensive production... Odom and Brand for the Clippers, Artest for the Kings, and Gasol for the Grizzlies.

Shaq only seemed to have had Dwayne wade on his team as they won a title after he played for "kobe Bryant's team"

Kobe's dependency on others:
As of now it still seems that Kobe needs his team more than his team needs him...
before getting his pieces to win a championship in recent history he was planning on jumping ship, because he never had that cushion to fall back on since Shaq left. It just seemed that when this Lakers team added Gasol and then Artest they started winning. On game 7 of the NBA Finals Kobe just seemed to disappear as the Lakers found some way to win. Only because of Perkins' injury and the rebounding down low from the Lakers helped them win game 7.
Alex

Con

Welcome! Thank you for the challenge and the oppurtunity to debate such as topic.

Before I officially begin my rebuttals, i am going to say that by definition of Batman and Robin we simply mean which one is better, and more of a leader. If you have problems with this let me know in the next round.

Anyways, I will start off by showing the irrelevancy, and the errancy of my opponents arguments, then i will present mine. I will start off on the second line of his opening paragraph.

"Shaq did not need Kobe to win yet Kobe needed Shaq to win." I will graciously await evidence for this before needing to respond.

"Kobe decided to pass himself into a loss eventually getting his team eliminated from the playoffs. Shaq was so hard to stop. Game footage and stats will prove this point that Shaq was more efficient than Kobe ever will be."

I would like to pause for a moment and remind my opponent that without backing up his claims and providing sources his claims do not hold much water, and leaves me with little to refute.

Moving along, the definition for efficient is as follows:

"performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary." http://dictionary.reference.com...

Kobe's nickname is "The Black Mamba" for a reason, he's super quick. He can shoot field goals, 3's, jumpshots, lay ups etc. Making him very versitile, what can Shaq do? He can dunk, and make short field goals. Now i am not doubting Sha's power, it is obvious he was one of the most dominating centers in the league, however what i mentioned above is ALL he can do. Opposed to kobes incredible versitility.

"before getting his pieces to win a championship in recent history he was planning on jumping ship, because he never had that cushion to fall back on since Shaq left."

Really, let's re-evaluate history shall we?

Kobe did NOT jump ship, Shaq did.

He went to miami.. Then the Suns.. Then the Cavs.. And now finally boston, have you seen such a fair weather title chaser before such as Shaq? Embarrassing. Kobe has been a Laker since his career began. Think twice before you bring up a point.

" But my opponent will just seem to forget that Lamar Odom, Gasol, and just recently Artest were playing for this team. These people for their teams before the Lakers were the go to people for offensive production... Odom and Brand for the Clippers, Artest for the Kings, and Gasol for the Grizzlies."

Do i need to remind you that Shaq is on Boston with Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal, Paul Peirce and Rajon Rando. Need i say more?

____________
My argument:
____________

This debate is not whether or not they need a supporting crew, they both do. To make the Batman and Robin comparison you are admitting that teamwork is involved.

Kobe is regarded as the best closer in the game, and the player who can score when needed. His dominance is unmatched. A few years back when Kobe didn't have a decent supporting crew he scored the second highest of all time points in one game being 81. Has Shaq ever came close?

Kobe was the youngest player to reach both 20,000 AND 25,000 points.

The "Hack a Shaq" strategy was invented because he is known for his inability to make free throws. Giving him the title of most free throws attempted in a game, a half and even a quarter. This strategy was most implemented and most effective in the clutch moments of a game. As any NBA follower knows, free throws are critical for closing a game.

When a team needs points, Kobe is inarguably the player to go to. Shaq cannot take over a game like Kobe.

That is it for now, good luck!

Other sources: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
ASB

Pro

If by the word definition
In defining the meaning of Batman and Robin, you mean

Definition
-somebody or something believed to represent or embody a particular idea or quality
ENCARTA DICTIONARY

Then yes Shaq was more of a leader and Kobe was a sidekick.

Evidence #1:
Let us start by how these two met, in the year of 1996, O'Neal was signed
after ousting Divac and acquiring Kobe through a trade... yes Kobe was drafted by the Hornets
he was not always a Laker.
From 1996 to 2004, Shaq averaged more points, more rebounds and also had a better field goal percentage.
Shaq also won 3 NBA title MVP's and a season MVP while Kobe won none of these.

MERRIAM WEBSTER COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY: TENTH EDITION
Efficient:
2. Productive without waste.
Efficiency:
(1). Effective operation as measured by a comparison of production.

Shaq was more efficient... he had more points and a better field goal percentage. And he successfully got rebounds.
Kobe Bryant, not so efficient.
Kobe wasted more shots and had a lower percentage. He just wasn't as productive as Shaq.

Comparison to Batman and Robin:
Bruce threw Robin over his shoulder and carried him out of the burning tent. Bruce had also lost both of his parents and understood what Robin was going through, which eventually led Bruce into adopting him.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com...

Evidence #2:
The drama started 2 seasons before when there was much chatter about Kobe Bryant leaving the Lakers as a free agent to join the Clippers.
It was suggested that Kobe wanted to play (beat) Shaq four times a year and lift a much maligned franchise to championship visibility in the process.
In the end it was Shaq who was traded and Kobe stayed, and some started to believe Kobe simply used the Clippers as leverage.
Elton Brand would emerge as 20 and 10 player, and the savvy of veteran Sam Cassell had the Clippers posting better records in two seasons than Kobe’s Lakers, and critics jeered that the Clippers were better off without him.
http://thelakersnation.com...

The Lakers and Clippers play inside of the same arena.
Shaq did not jump ship, he was traded to the Heat for Odom and Caron Butler.

Comparison to Batman and Robin:
The truth is that Robin from Teen Titans Go didn't exactly want to be Batman's sidekick anymore which lead him to becoming a Teen Titans , let me explain it more wisely , you see Batman always treated Robin as child not a teenager or a hero and didn't let Robin ever help in his battles vs villains and that made Robin very angry that caused him to have a fight with the DARK NIGHT ( Batman )
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com... is a

Evidence #3:
In two seasons, Shaq, the man who got traded, turned the Heat around and led them to their first NBA Final in 2006, and won. Shaq won the title without Kobe.
Kobe on the other hand didn't make the playoffs and instead had two seasons in a row when they were worse than the
Clippers... so what if Kobe scored 81 points... he did not win anything big that season and he is not a consistent player.

The year before Gasol...
commentary-
"So with the Lakers down 15 points at halftime, the most dominant player in the NBA, the guy who dropped 81 on the Raptors earlier this season, refused to shoot in the second half. Kobe took three shots total in the last 24 minutes - what he gets up in some single minutes - and the Lakers got humiliated.
Anyone who has followed Kobe knows this isn't exactly new behavior. He did the same thing against the Kings in a game a year ago. But this was GAME 7 of the playoffs."

Everyone who follows Kobe knows this moment. This game was GAME 7 between the Lakers and Suns
when Jackson and critics criticised Kobe Bryant for not passing the ball enough during games.

So Kobe went on one of his infamous shooting boycotts. He tried to prove a point by passing the ball to the point
his team lost miserably.
He basically quit in the middle of the game.
http://www.worldgolf.com...

Kobe then demands that he wants a trade again.

Evidence #4:
Kobe Bryant: "I got one more (championship) than Shaq. You can take that to the bank."
http://www.hoopsvibe.com...
An inferiority complex, in the fields of psychology and psychoanalysis, is a feeling that one is inferior to others in some way. Such feelings can arise from an imagined or actual inferiority in the afflicted person. It is often subconscious, and is thought to drive afflicted individuals to overcompensate, resulting either in spectacular achievement or extreme schizotypal behavior,[citation needed] or both. Unlike a normal feeling of inferiority, which can act as an incentive for achievement (or promote discouragement), an inferiority complex is an advanced state of discouragement, often embedding itself into one's lifestyle, and sometimes resulting in a retreat from difficulties.

Long after the Kobe, Shaq fued was over, Kobe says this, this was the first thing Kobe said about winning his 5th NBA title.
He didn't say I tied Magic Johnson first or one more til I tie Jordan first.
Kobe Bryant still feels like he had something to prove while Shaq seemed to have forgot. When Shaq won he never said one more than Kobe. Him not boasting shows superiority. Shaq even petitioned for Kobe to be MVP on countless seasons, he wished Kobe the best of luck with winning.

*This is why Shaq still has the alpha dog factor over Kobe and Kobe can never shake that.

Good luck would've typed more. Ran out of space.

Alex

Con


Ive run out of time, i thought i could post tonight but i have to much work to do. If the voters forgive, i will post my argument on my next turn.
Debate Round No. 2
ASB

Pro


I can forgive you Alex...

Afterall YOU HAD 1, 2, 3 DAYS to type a comeback.
Alex

Con

Alex forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
ASB

Pro

Shaquille O'Neal
96-97 LAL 51 51 38.1 0.557 0.000 0.484 3.8 8.7 12.5 3.1 0.9 2.9 2.86 3.53 26.2
97-98 LAL 60 57 36.3 0.584 0.000 0.527 3.5 7.9 11.4 2.4 0.6 2.4 2.92 3.22 28.3
98-99 LAL 49 49 34.8 0.576 0.000 0.540 3.8 6.9 10.7 2.3 0.7 1.7 2.49 3.16 26.3
99-00 LAL 79 79 40.0 0.574 0.000 0.524 4.3 9.4 13.6 3.8 0.5 3.0 2.82 3.23 29.7
00-01 LAL 74 74 39.5 0.572 0.000 0.513 3.9 8.8 12.7 3.7 0.6 2.8 2.95 3.46 28.7
01-02 LAL 67 66 36.1 0.579 0.000 0.555 3.5 7.2 10.7 3.0 0.6 2.0 2.55 2.97 27.2
02-03 LAL 67 66 37.8 0.574 0.000 0.622 3.9 7.2 11.1 3.1 0.6 2.4 2.93 3.42 27.5
03-04 LAL 67 67 36.7 0.584 0.000 0.490 3.7 7.8 11.5 2.9 0.5 2.5 2.91 3.36 21.5


Kobe Bryant

96-97 LAL 71 6 15.5 0.417 0.375 0.819 0.7 1.2 1.9 1.3 0.7 0.3 1.58 1.44 7.6
97-98 LAL 79 1 26.0 0.428 0.341 0.794 1.0 2.1 3.1 2.5 0.9 0.5 1.99 2.28 15.4
98-99 LAL 50 50 37.9 0.465 0.267 0.839 1.1 4.2 5.3 3.8 1.4 1.0 3.14 3.06 19.9
99-00 LAL 66 62 38.2 0.468 0.319 0.821 1.6 4.7 6.3 4.9 1.6 0.9 2.76 3.33 22.5
00-01 LAL 68 68 41.0 0.464 0.305 0.853 1.5 4.3 5.9 5.0 1.7 0.6 3.24 3.26 28.5
01-02 LAL 80 80 38.3 0.469 0.250 0.829 1.4 4.1 5.5 5.5 1.5 0.4 2.79 2.85 25.2
02-03 LAL 82 82 41.5 0.451 0.383 0.843 1.3 5.6 6.9 5.9 2.2 0.8 3.51 2.66 30.0
03-04 LAL 65 64 37.7 0.438 0.327 0.852 1.6 3.9 5.5 5.1 1.7 0.4 2.63 2.71 24.0

http://www.nba.com...
Alex

Con

Alex forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Deistdude90 5 years ago
Deistdude90
ASBAlexTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
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Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70