The Instigator
liambeckwith
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Dr_Evi1
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should Britain leave the European Union?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/12/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 439 times Debate No: 82470
Debate Rounds (5)
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liambeckwith

Pro

The first reason why Britain would be better off out the European Union is because we would be free to form Free Trade Agreements (FTAs) with some of the biggest economies in the world. Iceland recently formed an FTA with China, why can't we? Furthermore, we can form an FTA with the EU as we are one of their biggest importers of goods.

Open Europe recently researched the possibility of what could happen if we chose to leave and strike an FTA with the EU: "In a best case scenario, where the UK strikes a FTA with the EU, pursues very ambitious deregulation of its economy and opens up almost fully to trade with the rest of the world, Open Europe estimates that UK GDP would be 1.6% higher in 2030 than if it had stayed within the EU."

In terms of membership, it currently costs the British taxpayer "55 million a day in membership fees. That's before all the additional costs are added on. It would be much more beneficial if we had the freedom of spending British resources in Britain to the advantage of its citizens.

This money could be spent on the NHS, housing, schools, the elderly and roads instead of going in the back pockets of the unelected Eurocrats, sitting on the European Commission, in Brussels.

The most controversial point I'll make is about our borders. As members of the EU, we must adhere to the Free Movement of People imposed on us by Brussels. Now immigration has its benefits which is a fact.

But mass uncontrolled immigration is irresponsible and dangerous. How are we meant to plan for housing, schooling and health care when we simply don't know how many people are going to move into Britain. Furthermore, the vast majority of EU migrants are unskilled and will only drive wages down as big corporation relish from the cheap labour.

Plus, having open borders to all of Europe means we are discriminating against skilled doctors, lawyers and entrepreneurs in India, China, America and Canada who may wish to come to Britain, but can't as we favour unskilled labour. It would make much more sense to control our borders and implement a points-based system where we can choose who comes.
Dr_Evi1

Con

I am happy to accept the challenge.
Your first point is about the EU "restricting" our trade. While in the EU we have the largest market in the world, a collective force to be reckoned with and respected. By leaving we isolate ourselves, and would defiantly not be a large priority for huge economies like China and India. Additionally 1 in 10 jobs in Britain are related to work with the EU, and are put at risk by us leaving the common market.
By staying in the EU we can maintain good relations with our neighbors, leaving would be a massive "f*** you" to people who we should be cooperating and working with. The 55 million a day, this goes to the EU central budget, customs duties and agricultural levies. The EU budget is something that helps lesser members of the EU, is there to bail out banks and services if they go bust and generally improve Europe, something worth paying the price. It also goes to running the EU, foreign aid, the preservation and management of natural resources and granting loans to small businesses.
We also get a fair amount back through rebate so our total cost per day is more like "33 million per day (dont believe everything UKIP tells you).
We also get research grants from the EU to help with both medical and scientific funding. This benefits universities and drugs companies. We have extradition treaties with all EU countries (which would have to be re-negotiated if we left) which aid in the capture of dangerous criminals traveling through and committing crime in the EU.
The immigration argument is controversial. EU migrants bring a net profit if about "5.5 billion, this is after all of the welfare (including the NHS) that they took out. Not only does migration deepen the cultural diversity of Britain but it allowed people to widen their world view by coming into contact with people from different countries. There are very little real arguments against immigration, not to mention the 2.2 million Britons that live in the EU, benefiting from the free movement of people. It also gives individuals the right to travel through Europe on holiday and sell goods abroad with little hindrance.
Furthermore having a European Court of law that can overturn British legislature is nothing but a good thing in my eyes. It acts as another check and balance to the power of our government preserving the rights of the people of the UK. Frankly i don't trust the Torys to do it by themselves. For example the tradition of disallowing prisoners the vote, if the EU had not stepped in that basic democratic right would be denied them. The EU also ties us to our ecological goals that need to be achieved, which helps the environment and the health of the people.
Alot of the "lets leave" argument rests in spurring up nationalistic ideals and getting people to believe that "Briton is best and we can win by ourselves". By leaving we are isolating ourselves and not only would we be cutting off ties with an organisation that has helped to preserve European peace but one that benefits normal people and aids our friends in Europe.
Debate Round No. 1
liambeckwith

Pro

Thank you for responding.

Firstly, because of the European Union, our manufacturing sector has been destroyed. This means we have little to offer to the world apart from one sector the Eurocrats daren't touch. That's the financial sector. In the UK we have some of the biggest and most successful banks such as HSBC, Barclay's, Lloyd's and Santander. This sector sector can be outsourced further. Furthermore, we are one of the EU's biggest importers of cars, foods, perfumes and other goods. I'm certain big corporations will push the Eurocrats to form an FTA if we do leave. In terms of the rest of the world, we have the Commonwealth. A number of countries which have turned our backs on to focus on the EU's needs, to say that we won't be a priority is a complete guess with no facts behind it.

Isolation will not be a factor when it comes to leaving the EU simply because the EU is not the sole international organisation in the world. We are already a leading member of NATO and have a seat on the UN Security Council. We have cultural and historic links with countries all over the world and are seen as the world's leading "soft-power" state. Again, all unrelated to our membership of the EU. Countries like the USA, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India and China have strong ties these important global and self-governing nations. I've already mentioned the Commonwealth which we are also allies with, plus we can still co-operate and trade with Europe, which was the original plan before it was hijacked.

Your point about losing jobs is also not true which Treasury Civil Servants have repeated numerous times in August 2014. Furthermore, the Director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, Martin Wheale, denounced the fact that millions of jobs rely on EU membership as "pure Goebbels".

In terms of the cost of EU Membership, it's never going to be dead on certain. Our gross contributions are "55 million a day but Martin Holehouse, points out all the other fees which have been added on in recent times:
"The Office for Budget Responsibility said it expects Britain"s contributions to Brussels to jump by "1.3 billion next year alone."
"Britain is next year expected to pay "9.5 billion, against a forecast four months earlier of "8.2 billion."
"Britain"s contribution to the European Union budget is set to be "3.1 billion higher over the next five years than was forecast before the election."

But I stand by my point, instead of funding a failing European Project we should be focusing on our own needs first. We have ex-military personnel living on the streets, we have pensioners who are freezing to death in their own homes, we have a failing NHS, our armed forces are under-equipped for the conflicts our government is trying to get us involved with, roads are falling apart causing transportation problems, schools are beginning to see overcrowding of pupils.

Your point about immigration is true when you say "migration deepen the cultural diversity of Britain but it allowed people to widen their world view by coming into contact with people from different countries." Yes diversity is a good thing, but please remember not to forget our British values and own cultures come first. In terms of the benefit EU migrants bring, if you placed millions of them in Japan or China, does that mean they bring a "net profit of "5.5 billion" to their country? I strongly doubt that.

But you fail to respond to my points about "how are we meant to plan for housing, schooling and health care when we simply don't know how many people are going to move into Britain." And "we are discriminating against skilled doctors, lawyers and entrepreneurs in India, China, America and Canada who may wish to come to Britain" The fact is we can't plan for these things without a definitive number of migrants. In terms of your comments about holiday, personally I think people are more concerned about their wages and job security than their summer holiday.

In terms of the European Court of Law, the fact that this court can overturn our decisions is frankly disgusting! Our courts are funded for a reason, they are not funded to be overturned by another court in a completely different country. I'm not even going to comment on your remark about giving prisoners the vote, they broke the law and should be punished for it.

It's not the "lets leave" argument that's stirring up nationalistic ideals, it's the European Union itself. By imposing a Union, which we have not voted for, on people is going to cause tension. Especially when that Union plans to destroy national integrity, borders, democracy and nationalities to form a United States of Europe. I said before, we are not isolating ourselves and the EU has not brought us peace. It was the instigator for the Russia/Ukraine Crisis thus causing many deaths. Along with their idiotic policy of persuading millions of migrants to cross the Mediterranean, which lead to boats capsizing and more drownings.

I just want to emphasise the fact that I don't want to break ties with Europe, we should trade, co-operate and be good neighbours to Europe, but not be governed by an unelected Commission which costs of millions of pounds a day and overturn our laws.
Dr_Evi1

Con

Dr_Evi1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
liambeckwith

Pro

liambeckwith forfeited this round.
Dr_Evi1

Con

Dr_Evi1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
liambeckwith

Pro

Do I win then?
Dr_Evi1

Con

Dr_Evi1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
liambeckwith

Pro

liambeckwith forfeited this round.
Dr_Evi1

Con

Dr_Evi1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
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