Should DNA tests be mandatory at birth?
Debate Rounds (3)
Hi, this is an interesting topic and I hope to have fun with it.
DNA tests should not be mandatory at birth at all. The statistics that you have shown are a bit too general but I have a more specific statistic. "A 2005 scientific review of international published studies of paternal discrepancy found a range in incidence from 0.8% to 30% (median 3.7%, with half of the academic studies on the subject, i.e. eight, yielding rates from 2.0% to 9.6%), suggesting that the widely quoted and unsubstantiated figure of 10% of non-paternal events is an overestimate." However, a 2008 study in United Kingdom found that fathers were wrongly identified in 0.2% of the cases processed by the Child Support Agency.
You raise a good point in where a parent may be tricked into paying for their fake kid. However, these are not common occurances and DNA tests are expensive. You do not simply get a DNA test, there are procedures and there is even a long period of time to receive results. In places like the United States of America where health insurance coverage is already very limited, how do you expect expectant parents to pay for their child and then an expensive DNA test as well? Approximately 370,000 babies are born everyday worldwide, if every baby required a DNA test and we calculated using $500/DNA test, $185 million would be spent. Seeing how only 0.2% of cases found that fathers were wrongly identified, 99.8% of the money would be wasted. That would amount to around $67 Billion wasted. In this time, we need as much money as we can get, and surely we can spend this money better elsewhere.
Other than that, I will be talking about various reasons why DNA tests should not be mandatory at all.
These reasons include:
Psychological dangers to the people involved
It may not matter about the legitimacy anyways
Thank you, please, continue with your arguments.
When a woman commits paternity fraud, she does more than lie to her husband. She emasculates him, tells him that he is inadequate, and forces him to become a slave for the genes of another man. This is not just a crime. It is a tragedy.
The Child Support Agency is biased because they actively try to force men to pay for the children of others. From 1996-2004, the Child Support Agency used the courts to force Mr. Navarro to pay for another man's child even when they knew he was not the father. They assisted the mother in enslaving him to pay for someone's children. Then, after he took the case to the Supreme Court and won, the Child Support Agency tried to file a court order and expunge the case from court records so that it could not be used as precedent to free other men in Mr. Navarro's situation. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org.... The Child Support Agency is proven to be fraudulent, and its statistics are biased because it has an incentive to lie, cheat, and enslave. Instead of using Child Support statistics, we should use the American Blood Bank's reliable statistics, which estimates that 30% of men are raising children that they falsely to be their own. Read it here, brother: http://www.shrink4men.com... This means that 10 million men are slaves. See it here, brother: http://rense.com...
Brother, you say that DNA tests are so expensive, maybe even $500. This is not true. DNA tests cost maybe $30, brother. See it here: http://fatherhood.about.com... Even if it is expensive, this is not a problem. We pay for foreign wars. We pay for welfare. We pay for child support when the father cannot pay. We pay to throw men in jail and for the government to blacklist him if he is too poor to pay child support. We pay for prisoner TVs and video games. We can cut the fat and pay for men to have justice if we can pay for those things. If the man cannot pay and the government pays thousands of dollars every month to women for child support, it can save that money in the long run by doing a $30 paternity test
Brother, you say there are psychological dangers. This is not true. There are no psychological dangers except to the criminal woman, and this is not a reason to stop the test. We don't stop throwing rapists and murderers in jail because of psychological dangers. Criminals should have no consideration in our legal system. If the woman is not lying, she has nothing to worry about.
There are no physical dangers. Brother, made this up. You might say, well maybe the man will kill his wife. But if that is a reason to not have paternity tests, maybe we should put chastity belts on women since if they cheat, their husbands will kill them. Maybe we should also ban getting angry and put everything on tranquilizers. See how dumb this is?
Brother, you say legitimacy does not matter. What? So it is ok to make people slaves for children that are not their children? If we swapped all of the children in the hospital and gave them to the wrong mothers, you can bet that the feminists would say that legitimacy matters. They would march in the streets and sue the hospitals, brother. But because the man is enslaved, nobody cares, brother. Talk about misandry.
Sorry for the slow reply, but I will continue with my personal arguments and also rebut your arguments.
Firstly, when I speak of psychological dangers, I speak about the psychological effects that the news will bring to both parties. The "criminal woman" is not the only person who experiences these psychological problems, everyone is on the same boat. Do you not think that the families of the child would be destroyed? Expectant mothers and fathers would likely get a divorce. What would an expectant father react like when he finds out the child is not his own? A lot of people get more angry for a lot less.
Personally, I say that he would experience depression. Depression is one of the most common psychological problems today, coincidentally, a way to get depression is the loss of a family member or loved one. Some symptoms of depression include :
• Changes in appetite - with a resultant loss or weight gain.
The father, like you have stated is always innocent, so why should he have to suffer from a mandatory DNA testing? If the father did not know that the kid was not his, he would still take care of the child like his own. He would still have joy in living because he still thinks that the kid is still his. He could still teach, play with and love that kid as his very own. Why do people have children anyways? It is because they could experience this and see someone move through their entire life. The relationship would be identical to the relationship the kid would have had with his biological father. Some things are better unknown than known. If he had reason to believe that the kid was not his, he would go in for a DNA test, if not, he would continue with his happy life.
Now, moving onto physical dangers, I am speaking exactly about a "the man will kill his wife" kind of thing, specifically, domestic abuse. I have not "made up" this extremely real problem. Domestic abuse is defined as "all acts of physical, sexual, psychological or economic violence that occur within the family or domestic unit or between former or current spouses or partners, whether or not the perpetrator shares or has shared the same residence with the victim". Domestic abuse is nothing that is "made up". There are countless stories of honor killings, acid throwing, dowry violence and bride burning. Although it is not as extreme as "the man will kill his wife", these are all physical dangers that some people will do when they are angry. When people find out that the child they have spent so much money and time on is not theirs, they would be frustrated. Now, your following argument is very extreme and does not make sense in this context. We can bring everything to an extreme with your way of arguing. You cannot generalize such a big group, not every husband will become violent, I am just saying that it is possible. Here is something that would make sense with your logic : "we should just lock away all women because they commit paternity fraud against men".
Finally, when I say legitimacy does not matter, I did not say that it is okay to make people slaves for "children that are not their children". With your statement, you refer to the every parent of a child as slave, generalizing once again. The thing is, parents are not slaves to their children. It is in human nature to love their own offspring. Parents cherish the time that they are able to have with their children and they do not look at it as slavery. 94% of parents say that although the cost of parenting is enormous, it is still completely worth it. [Source : http://ideas.time.com...] With this, again, your analogies are far too extreme and unreasonable. First of all, we would never do that, and second of all, even if every baby was switched, as long as the basic features of the kid the parents receive and their real kid are the same, there would be no problem. You do not have to be the biological father in order to love, there are countless step-fathers in the world, do you think legitimacy matters much to them?
Now to summarize what I have just said, there are psychological dangers, physical dangers, and that legitimacy does not matter. Some things are better off not known and kept hidden because sometimes it creates a reality that they enjoy. Parents are not slaves to their children, whether they are biological or not. Parents love their children from the moment they are born due to the nature of humans.
We do not need to argue about The Child Support Agency or about Mr. Navarro. It is a very sad and tragic story, no one can disagree. Sure, this story is well known but not everyone will experience this. A single police officer who is corrupt does not mean that the entire police force is corrupt. 1 in 1,000,000 people could experience it but you do not need to put the other 999,999 at risk.
Moving on to changing your entire theory on the relationship between a parent (biological or not) and their child. You say that because the American Blood Bank's reliable statistics show that 30% of men are raising illegitimate children, the men are slaves. Once again, you can not know that they are slaves. Slaves suffer from their owners, of those 30% of men, the majority have no problems taking kid of that child. Refer to my previous paragraphs and you will see this idea repeatedly.
Talking about your rebuttal to DNA tests being expensive, we do not have to argue about the specific prices, you have sources and I have sources, that is not very important, but I leave you with a few sources which agree with my initial proposed number:
"We pay for foreign wars. We pay for welfare. We pay for child support when the father cannot pay. We pay to throw men in jail and for the government to blacklist him if he is too poor to pay child support." Firstly, these things are important and the country could not run smoothly without them. Foreign wars actually are an investment because of the oil we can extract once we are done. We put dangerous men in jail because they would harm innocent people if we did not. Because they are still human, we give them the very basics of entertainment so they have the possibility of changing once that they left prison.
Also, yes, we pay for all of that, which is why the United States is in $16 trillion of debt [Source:http://www.usdebtclock.org...]. With this amount of debt, every single citizen essentially has a $53,000 debt personally. "Even if it is expensive, this is not a problem", are you sure you can say this after the numbers that I have just showed you? Do you really want to put more debt on the shoulders of everyday citizens?
There is a reason why DNA testing is not mandatory already. If you want to know, you'll ask. Is HIV testing mandatory? It is not because if you were really curious, you would go and get screened yourself. Are pregnancy tests mandatory every time you have sex? No, because if there was a reason to believe you were pregnant, you would go and get a pregnancy test.
I pass the rebuttal to you now, I hope we can keep this debate going, it is getting more and more interesting.
Brother, you present a very paternalistic view of human life. You say that the father can be happy caring for the child that is not his. You say that if he is fooled and tricked into caring for his child, he will not be depressed. You say that the family will be destroyed, and if we lie to the father, the family will not be destroyed. Everyone could be happy.
Brother, this sounds like a nice, touchy-feely story, but you are forgetting something. The family was destroyed when the mother chose to cheat and have someone else"s baby, not when the DNA tests are revealed. Marriages are built on a foundation of trust, brother. Two people come together to start a genetic family together, or if they both decide together, a non-genetic family. The woman in this position knows that she was not supposed to cheat. She knows that she was not supposed to have someone"s baby. She violated the foundation of the relationship. It ended before the DNA test. A relationship based on lies, deceit, a lack of trust, and feelings that the partner is inadequate is not a relationship at all. These "relationships" will end, and in the divorce court, the child"s paternity will be found out. Only this time, because the man was forced to pay daddy by the mother, he will have to pay for kids that are not his. 50% of normal marriages end in divorce, brother. If one partner does not respect the other as a genetic donor or as a person, the number will be even higher, brother.
Brother, you say that he will be depressed. I ask you this, brother: will he be more depressed when he sees the DNA test results after birth or when he is in divorce court, has half of his assets stolen by his lying and cheating "wife", and is ordered by the court to pay for some other man"s child? Brother, you are increasing his depression by not giving him results right away.
Now, brother, you might say, suppose he never finds out. Well, it is custom in divorce cases for men to have paternity tests because lawyers recommend it. What if he never finds out? He can live a happy life, you say, brother. Well, it is not our place to decide this for him. The government could give everyone a happy life if they decide what we ate, who we married, what our jobs were, and when we died. It could engineer a perfect, happy life for everyone. But brother, this would terrible because that takes away from the meaning of our lives. Everyone man is a rational being who should have the ability to decide what to do with his own life and how to make himself happy. We should not sanitize the experience for him. Life has always been about gains and losses, brother. He has the right to know that he is being cheated and stolen from so that he can make the best decision for himself. Perhaps he will be able to move on and find a woman more worthy of his attention so that he can start a real family. In many cases, he does this. You have no right to decide this for him, brother, and neither does the government. The government"s duty is to protect him from violations of his rights. Fraud, enslavement, and cheating are violations of his rights. The government must use mandatory tests to protect him. It cannot make the decision to care for another man"s child for him.
Now, brother, you say that maybe if there is testing, he will attack the fraud. You call this domestic violence. Now, brother, when that DNA test gives results, the relationship is over. Do you really think the defrauded man will want to see his "wife" again? No. Now, you later say that he can already get the DNA test. Well, brother, when is it more likely for him to hurt his wife, after he gets the DNA test in the hospital in front of the nurses and doctors, or after he gets the test by himself and has nobody to turn to because the government is going to steal for him to provide for a child that is not his? When does the man become more dangerous, when he is wounded and locked in a corner with a knife at his throat, or when he is wounded but is let free? If you force him to enter biased divorce court proceedings, you make him more desperate, bitter, and angry. He is more likely to be violent if the tests are not mandatory. Brother, even if the man does becomes violent, if the test is in a public space, it is easier for the police to protect the woman. Brother, your chastity belt analogy is extreme because it violates rights of the woman. The DNA test does not violate rights. You are using a false analogy.
Brother, you say legitimacy does not matter because some people think it is worth being a parent. Yes, brother, they think it is worth being a parent of their own genetic children. That is part of the worth of being a children. If raising any child was an issue, why do couples want to have natural children instead of picking up a random street rat from the ghetto or instead of adopting? You also say that stepfathers do not think legitimacy matters. Well, brother, the difference between a step-father and a defrauded "parent" is that the step father consciously made the choice to raise another man"s child. There are no feelings of resentment and no feelings of being cheated because he knew what he was doing. The defrauded parent never gets to make that choice. His standing as a moral being is compromised. Can a man fall in love with another man"s child? Yes. Should he be forced to? No.
Brother, your analysis is contradictory. You say that legitimacy does not matter to men. If that is true, the test will not matter. The family will not split up because the man will not care about the legitimacy, right? But if this is true, why is the mother lying to the man? Why does she commit the fraud in the first place? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, brother. Your stories are contradictory.
Brother, the man is a slave if he is forced to pay for a child that is not his and that he did not consent to pay for. Slavery is about consent, not about happiness. According to police reports, one common way that sex slaves are kept docile and happy is by feeding them drugs, like cocaine. This makes them happy and unable to leave. They are still slaves because they did not rationally consent. The happiness is irrelevant. Now, brother, you might say that the defrauded parent signed the birth certificate. However, this was under a lie because they were told that the child was their genetic child. If a business does this, we call this fraud and hold the business accountable in a legal court. The DNA test will prevent this fraud from occurring.
Now, you say that DNA tests are expensive because of your sources. Brother, if I told you that ice cream costs $2, and you say that Ben and Jerry"s sells it for $5, that does not mean my price is wrong. That just means someone else is selling it for cheaper. We have no obligation to use your estimates because my source gives a cheaper test. Brother, you also say that the costs of other things lead to debt, which is bad. Well, brother, I say we cut those things. Cut welfare, cut foreign wars, and cut use of governmental funds to enslave innocent men for child support that is not their own to pay. This will help us pay for justice for men. There will be no impact on the economy. Brother, maybe we can even cut spending. This is for justice. Welfare, foreign wars, and slavery are for injustice. We must promote justice. That is the governmental obligation.
Brother, you give examples of other tests and say, well these are not mandatory. Brother, this is another false analogy. Those are not mandatory because they only affect you. Your HIV and pregnancy are only your own. The DNA test affects other people. It affects the child, who might have a disease and now has false medical history. It affects the father, who is being cheated and defrauded. If you are pregnant, that is your problem. If you cheat a man to pay for someone else"s child, that is a violation of rights.
You are wrong, brother. Very wrong.
kazmo forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Mikal 3 years ago
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