The Instigator
GabeLipworth
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Ryuumarq
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Should Hong Kong be returned to the UK?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Ryuumarq
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/8/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,101 times Debate No: 73102
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (2)

 

GabeLipworth

Pro

Hong Kong used to be a British colony until the 1980s when the British decided to make it an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom. In 1999, the full lease of Hong Kong was over and the whole territory was ceded back to China! Unfortunately, the Kowloon peninsula and Hong Kong Island which was meant to be British forever was also ceded back. China intimidated Margaret Thatcher to give it back by using their army as a threat! This was obviously unfair! However, what really counts is the prosperity of the people of Hong Kong and unfortunately, they are very unhappy and would like to return to the UK as they would prefer democracy than a communist government! Therefore, what really counts is what the people want, which is why Hong Kong should return to the UK!
Ryuumarq

Con

Do you really think British care about their colony (the people)? Do you even know what British do when Japanese attacks other Asian country? All British forces at the time was concentrated only on what benefits them most like Singapore knowing that it was futile to defend economically backward states. If you ask me why they colonize the economically backward state in the first place? They just want the resources such as ore, rubber and palm oil which they destroyed later using "Scorched Earth" tactics (doesnt that tell you something?).

Now about China threaten Margaret Thatcher, how about when British get the colony? British started a war called First Opium War. Isnt that just the same as "stealing"/"threaten by force" just because they want the Chinese tea? Did you know that Hong Kong is one of Four Asian Tiger? Also, Hong Kong Human Development Index is rank 15th according to wikipedia. Their GDP Per Capita alone surpass the mainland.
Debate Round No. 1
GabeLipworth

Pro

I believe in self determination! And this is unfair what is happening. The poor Hong Kong people cannot have a right to choose what they want. There was never a referendum. At least, under British rule again, they will get what they want: democracy. Therefore it is only right for the sake of the Hong Kongese and the British that Hong Kong should return. China has harmed Hong Kong very badly ever since the hand over. Why should they continue doing it to the poor Hong Kongese? The economy has gone down as well as other domains. So please, let the Hong Kongese have a say, GIVE THEM DEMOCRACY! And free them from a colonial rule that China is imposing on them. It is not a Chinese territory, it is now a Chinese colony. If it returned to Britain it would be a British Overseas Territory, not a colony!
Ryuumarq

Con

Alright first why micronation cannot get their sovereignty even if there are majority who like to get their "nation" independence. Secondly, can you provide sources regarding Hong Kong people want democracy? Even I as a citizen of my own country cannot possibly know what is the majority want. Also if you made this arguement due to stumbled across some site saying Hong Kong People is unhappy, then you should point your finger to the Hong Kong goverment which is "shall enjoy a high degree of autonomy" [1]. Fourthly, it is due to China claimant to Hong Kong at the time where British decolonised most of their colonies (or crown colony). Plus it is called Special administrative region not colony.

[1] : http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
GabeLipworth

Pro

Ok, good arguments! However I have many sources to give and pictures. The Hong Kongese have protested a lot and the Chinese government consider these protests illegal! Yet, they should have freedom of speech!

http://en.wikipedia.org...

They all want democracy and Taiwan supports them! However, since China is communist, then they cannot get it! Also, according to the Special Administrative thing, Hong Kong will not be a SAR in 2047 when China decides what to do with it! It says "for at least 50 years". So we can then consider it a colony which is probably not guaranteed full democracy! Also, a poll asking the Hong Kong people if they would like to return to the UK shows that 90% of voters in Hong Kong said Yes:

http://en.rocketnews24.com...

So, this shows that they would rather return! Therefore, a referendum for this would be a good idea! You'll see which side they will go
Ryuumarq

Con

2014? So until 2014 Hong Kong people enjoy their life? Also, on your second source, "..stating that they fear much of what makes the region great will eventually be lost..", so pratically saying that under China rule, they acheive great things. How do you know that it is Hong Kong people who vote? It is simple yes or no, it didnt even ask for identification.

http://www.scmp.com...

Statement from above paragraph four, "...our poll, resulting in 90 per cent of readers suggesting that Hongkongers would return to a British .." Also on the very next paragraph "While SCMP.com's polls are in no way scientific – after all, we are unable to tell whether voters are from Hong Kong or elsewhere in the world – it sparked much debate online."

Where did you get about "for at least 50 years"?

Lastly, You cannot go saying "They all want democracy" just because you thought that its the rightful thing to do and your opinion represent the majority.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by asi14 2 years ago
asi14
oops, I forgot to cast points. I'm an idiot.
Posted by m4j0rkus4n4g1 2 years ago
m4j0rkus4n4g1
I'm confused about what Pro is arguing here. By "should" does Pro mean that Hong Kong belongs to the UK based on morals? Or does this indicate that the UK should have the territory by nature of the law? I think it is also ignorant to argue that Hong Kong was originally British just because Britain controlled it for a period of time. Obviously, Hong Kong existed as a place that was under the rule of many, including China, and for a longer period of time than Britain.
Posted by Diqiucun_Cunmin 2 years ago
Diqiucun_Cunmin
@Ryumaarq: The British were unhappy about China for a number of trade-related reasons; there was a huge trade deficit and restrictions on trade. It wasn't really a matter of stealing resources; more like a matter of forcing a country to free up trade barriers.
Posted by Diqiucun_Cunmin 2 years ago
Diqiucun_Cunmin
' Fourthly, it is due to China claimant to Hong Kong at the time where British decolonised most of their colonies (or crown colony). Plus it is called Special administrative region not colony.' <-- True.

'The Hong Kongese have protested a lot and the Chinese government consider these protests illegal! Yet, they should have freedom of speech! They all want democracy and Taiwan supports them! However, since China is communist, then they cannot get it!' <-- There are a plenty of people who still see hope for democracy under Chinese rule. It doesn't really prove we should return to Britain. BTW, the protests are illegal; that's incontestable because it's the whole point of civil disobedience anyway.

'Also, according to the Special Administrative thing, Hong Kong will not be a SAR in 2047 when China decides what to do with it! It says "for at least 50 years". So we can then consider it a colony which is probably not guaranteed full democracy' <-- Keyword is at least. I'm personally optimistic that the status will be retained after 2047 because Hong Kong has been very useful for Chinese politicians. It's a stepping-stone to the outside world.

'Also, a poll asking the Hong Kong people if they would like to return to the UK shows that 90% of voters in Hong Kong said Yes:' <-- Online polls are constantly vote-bombed by radical anti-government groups.

'Also, on your second source, "..stating that they fear much of what makes the region great will eventually be lost..", so pratically saying that under China rule, they acheive great things' <-- Kinda baffles me how that conclusion was reached...

'How do you know that it is Hong Kong people who vote? It is simple yes or no, it didnt even ask for identification. ' <-- True.

'Where did you get about "for at least 50 years"?' <-- Sino-British Joint Declaration.
Posted by Ryuumarq 2 years ago
Ryuumarq
Im just merely point out that british did not care about their colony people safety. I guess you should be more suitable to be con since you are Hongkonger and can provide full detailed thing on what happen to Hong Kong :) but british do start a war to get the tea right?
Posted by Diqiucun_Cunmin 2 years ago
Diqiucun_Cunmin
'I believe in self determination! And this is unfair what is happening. The poor Hong Kong people cannot have a right to choose what they want. There was never a referendum.' <-- There is no mechanism for holding referenda in Hong Kong. They have no legal status.

;At least, under British rule again, they will get what they want: democracy. Therefore it is only right for the sake of the Hong Kongese and the British that Hong Kong should return.' <-- Likely not going to happen, though the British will probably send governors more capable than CY Leung.

'The economy has gone down as well as other domains.' <-- True, though the handover is not the sole cause of this. In your poll, I've argued that returning to colonial rule now will not boost the economy.

'It is not a Chinese territory, it is now a Chinese colony. If it returned to Britain it would be a British Overseas Territory, not a colony!' <-- It's just appeal to emotion. I suspect you learnt this rhetoric from Hongkongers who want to return to British rule...

Alright first why micronation cannot get their sovereignty even if there are majority who like to get their "nation" independence. <-- Micronations and Hong Kong are not analogous.

'can you provide sources regarding Hong Kong people want democracy? Even I as a citizen of my own country cannot possibly know what is the majority want.' <-- There are many polls made about the reforms, but each time around 40-60% support taking the current package and refining it later, and another 40-60% support rejecting it. In other words ~80% are concerned about democracy each time.

'then you should point your finger to the Hong Kong goverment which is "shall enjoy a high degree of autonomy"' <-- High degree of autonomy means Beijing doesn't meddle into Hong Kong's internal affairs, but more of that has happened in the past few years, and even the autonomous ruler is Beijing-backed.
Posted by Diqiucun_Cunmin 2 years ago
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Since the debate is over, I'll respond to some of the points raised. I'm not going to vote because I don't have a verified account (phone verification is not available in Hong Kong and I've never bothered contacting airmax to verify).

'China intimidated Margaret Thatcher to give it back by using their army as a threat! This was obviously unfair!' <- That doesn't prove anything.

'However, what really counts is the prosperity of the people of Hong Kong and unfortunately, they are very unhappy and would like to return to the UK as they would prefer democracy than a communist government!' <- A plenty of people would be happy with full democracy, even under Chinese sovereignty, as that would not imply Hong Kong is under communist rule.

'Do you really think British care about their colony (the people)? Do you even know what British do when Japanese attacks other Asian country?.... ' None of that has happened in Hong Kong. Governors like MacLehose and Youde have done a lot for us.

'Now about China threaten Margaret Thatcher, how about when British get the colony? British started a war called First Opium War. Isnt that just the same as "stealing"/"threaten by force" just because they want the Chinese tea?' Again, proves nothing as the above.

'Did you know that Hong Kong is one of Four Asian Tiger? Also, Hong Kong Human Development Index is rank 15th according to wikipedia. Their GDP Per Capita alone surpass the mainland.' The prosperity started during colonial times.
Posted by Diqiucun_Cunmin 2 years ago
Diqiucun_Cunmin
@GapeLipworth: I've written a long vote comment on your poll. ;)
Posted by GabeLipworth 2 years ago
GabeLipworth
You are from Hong Kong? Why would you prefer to remain with China? I know many Hong Kongese who all say that they hate China and want to return to Britain where they are guaranteed democracy!
Posted by Diqiucun_Cunmin 2 years ago
Diqiucun_Cunmin
As a Hongkonger (probably the only Hongkonger currently active on DDO, since killingpuppies is no longer active, unless there's someone from Hong Kong who hasn't stated location) I side with Con, but find the arguments both sides a bit weak... I feel I could write rebuttals to all the arguments so far. (Then again, being from Hong Kong might give me an 'unfair advantage'...)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by asi14 2 years ago
asi14
GabeLipworthRyuumarqTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: Both sides, I'd like to see more evidence in more of the rounds. I'm not sure why this was an issue, but Wikipedia is not a good source. Period. Aside from that I saw a good amount of clash, decent backing up of both sides' claims. Side-Specific: Pro: Your emphasis is on the populace not liking Hong Kong. You should have given evidence explaining why this is so, instead of hoping our hearts will be motivated enough to see your point. Although to be fair, this gives you some level of pathos/ethos right off the first speech, which is good. Con: The case debate is good, but I'd like to see additional, separate, offcase debate (eg. a Kritik). RFD: Con won that the people of Hong Kong enjoy their current position as a part of China with the "highest level of autonomy afforded to them", as the pro said.
Vote Placed by salam.morcos 2 years ago
salam.morcos
GabeLipworthRyuumarqTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct, language and sources were ok. Pro made one key argument, which is the poll. Con did a good job of rebutting it. Also, con rebutted all of Pro's weak arguments, which was about democracy and not return to UK. Con should've done a better job of showing that return to UK doesn't necessarily give hongkong autonomy. Pro made many unsupported arguments. I vote con.