The Instigator
drewsaphor
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Domr
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Should Military Veterans have extended Unemployment Benefits to Complete College?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
drewsaphor
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/23/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 899 times Debate No: 59456
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

drewsaphor

Pro

1st Round is for acceptance.

All Comments that attack anyone involved in the debate will be reported.
Domr

Con

Thank you Pro for instigating this debate. I appreciate any support troops can be given on our off the battlefield.

That being said, I must insist Veterans should not, and do not qualify for unemployment benefits.

Per the US Department of Labor website, unemployment benefit eligibility goes to :

"to eligible workers who become unemployed through no fault of their own, and meet certain other eligibility requirements."
http://www.dol.gov...


In regards to Veteran's and school, they have many options while on active duty, reserve duty, or post-duty to get assistance from the military for their schooling.
http://www.military.com...

Each branch of the military has their own unique tuition assitance program to help their men and women receive college degrees.
(all stats can be shown through the link above):
The Navy will pay up to 100% of the tuition!
The Mrines will pay up to 100% of tuition AND fees
The National Guard will pay up to 100%.

I hope the picture is being painted clearly.


The men and women of our military have learned hardwork and determination for the good of others. Once they have served their time, if they choose not to re-enlist, they are given much support on active duty, reserve duty, and after to receive much help from the military in which they served proudly and do not need the assistance of unemplyoment to further enhance their scholarly lives.
Debate Round No. 1
drewsaphor

Pro

1. " Veterans should not, and do not qualify for unemployment benefits." - CONS Claim

Read on

"The Unemployment Compensation for Ex-servicemembers (UCX) program provides benefits for eligible ex-military personnel. In addition, former members of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) are covered under the UCX program. The program is administered by the States as agents of the Federal government.

"If you were on active duty with a branch of the U.S. military, you may be entitled to benefits based on that service.

"You must have been separated under honorable conditions.

"There is no payroll deduction from servicemembers' wages for unemployment insurance protection. Benefits are paid for by the various branches of the military, or NOAA. "
http://www.dol.gov......

"to eligible workers who become unemployed through no fault of their own, and meet certain other eligibility requirements."
http://www.dol.gov......

When a veteran gets out of the Military, they didn't decide to just quit. Each Soldier has a contract. At times the Soldier always does not have the option to re-enlist in the Military. There are factors involved.
1. Medical separation- The Veteran has no choice
2. Unable to reenlist due to over saturation in MOS (Military Occupation Specialty) hindered Veterans advancement in rank,
3. Unable to reenlist due to holds military wide on reenlistment. (Government Spending Hold)
4. Compassionate Discharge
(I have served 8 years in the Army, I have witnessed this first hand.)

There are opportunities for education on Active Duty, except for those who spend more time in the field then deployed, then in the field again. The Army is constantly training. Most Soldiers do not have time to complete a degree in even an 8 year time frame. (8 years in the Army, I only had time to take 3 classes total.) There are stipulations with those tuition benefits that makes those programs difficult for a lot of Service Members.

Reserve and National Guard do not qualify for Unemployment after separation due to their part time military status.

The Veterans coming off Active duty have a rough time transitioning into Civilian World. Just because the Veteran chose not to or could not continue Military service, should they be left behind?

Now to the actual question. Yes, unemployment benefits for a Veteran to attend School should be extended. A traditional College student is still a dependent of their parents. Most veterans have to juggle their schooling and their family. Out of all the issues with the welfare system, I would think that this would be the most beneficial for just not the Veteran, but for the society as a hole. This will produce well knowledgeable leaders that we need in the business world or in our schools.
Domr

Con

I was unaware of the UCX. Military personnel already have unemployment benefits, as well as tuition assistance. This actually helps my case, as giving them more money would be 'overkill'.

Rebuttals:

If a service member is dishonorably discharged, the most likely do not deserve these benefits.

a quote you forgot from your link:
"The law of the State (under which the claim is filed) determines benefit amounts, number of weeks benefits can be paid, and other eligibility conditions. "
http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov...

While we do not make these rules, or determine eligibility, I would assume medical reasons would extend further than the "average benefits".

Also, they are many programs, like the wounded warrior project, to assist those injured while serving in the military.


Over saturation in the military is a hazard of the job. You have the right to choose a different MOS and continue working.

Government spending is again another hazard of the job. This could affect any government employees. While defense spending is normally separate, government officials have experienced lock downs before which have caused issues in their pay. This does not establish a basis for unemployment further than they already have.


Unemployment benefits are normally reserved for those who have been fired. Military servicemen have contracts. They are fully aware they may NOT be able to re-enlist due to numerous complications. Contracts are an ending of your work voluntarily, as you signed on detailing your time of service.


Those who do not have enough time...

Most service contracts are 8 year contracts, in which some of that time is spent on reserves (unless you choose to re-enlist.)
During that reserve time, you are still eligible for tuition assistance.

If a serviceman decides to "re-up" and forgo school, that is a decision made on their own behalf, and the government should not have to pay for those who are not interested in school at the moment.


The Reserves and National Guard have had the opportunity to work their entire Reserve or National Guard contract. Therefore they essentially have two jobs. They should definitely not have unemployment benefits.

Veterans coming off active duty, having a difficult time to adjust, are not left behind. Throwing money at them for school during this transition period may the worst idea. Someone who may possibly be unstable, for the time being immediately after duty, is not someone who should be trusted with EXTRA money.

College students get grants, and loan to help with their school. To say they are "dependant on their parents" insinuates their parents are paying for this.

Over 60% of students get loans for college. There is currently anywhere from 900 billion, to 1 trillion dollars in outstanding student debt.

http://www.asa.org...





Vveterans have a large number of resources given to them by the military they served for. They are working a full time job for 4+ years, while having numerous amenities paid for while on service. They are given tuition assistance during active duty and reserves (which the "stipulations" Pro mentioned have not been proven or shown at all)

Again as I was even unaware, veterans do already have unemployment benefits (UCX).

I would have brought this up immediately if I was aware, I would have brought this up myself, because they are already given unemployment benefits, per State rules, per the UCX.

The link below, military.com, states how veterans should be looking into other scholarships and grants for after school. Military tuition assistance isn't always the best, but its definitely a good start. To throw away all of the options in front of you, with Military tuition assistance, common scholarships and grants, and even those grants specialized to veterans, seems like a very selfish attitude.

In conclusion, veterans are already given a plethora of tuition assistance and unemployment options. They do NOT need extending.


http://www.military.com...


Debate Round No. 2
drewsaphor

Pro

Also, they are many programs, like the wounded warrior project, to assist those injured while serving in the military.

Response:
"The Wounded Warrior Project" (WWP) provides information and referral services to ensure appropriate and accurate information is provided to wounded service members, caregivers, and family members, with a goal of connecting warriors to programs and services that will enhance their quality of life."
"Does WWP offer grants to individuals? No. WWP does not offer grants to individuals. All grant applicants must submit evidence of tax exemption under 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. Tax exemption status must be current at the time of letter of interest submission in order to be eligible."
http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org...

Over saturation in the military is a hazard of the job. You have the right to choose a different MOS and continue working.

Response:
The statement above is an assertion. "you have the right to choose a different MOS and continue working." You assume that Service Members have the same rights like civilians. They do not. They follow a different set of laws called "The Code of Military Justice"
"Once you have your Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) scores you can choose a MOS that you qualified for. There are over 4,000 job options in the United States Army. The training you receive in the Army will be of great value to you for the rest of your life. Consider your personality, interest, background, and goals for the future." http://www.militaryspot.com...

Government spending is again another hazard of the job. This could affect any government employees. While defense spending is normally separate, government officials have experienced lock downs before which have caused issues in their pay. This does not establish a basis for unemployment further than they already have.

Response:
Invalid argument
Unemployment benefits are normally reserved for those who have been fired. Military servicemen have contracts. They are fully aware they may NOT be able to re-enlist due to numerous complications. Contracts are an ending of your work voluntarily, as you signed on detailing your time of service.

Response:
Assertion. You are assuming that all Service Members are properly briefed before signing their contracts. Service members are lied. http://www.alternet.org...

"The Department of Labor's Unemployment Insurance (UI) programs provide unemployment benefits to eligible workers who become unemployed through no fault of their own, and meet certain other eligibility requirements."

If a serviceman decides to "re-up" and forgo school, that is a decision made on their own behalf, and the government should not have to pay for those who are not interested in school at the moment.

Response:
Assertion.

The Reserves and National Guard have had the opportunity to work their entire Reserve or National Guard contract. Therefore they essentially have two jobs. They should definitely not have unemployment benefits.

Response:
Even if they lose their civilian job?

Veterans coming off active duty, having a difficult time to adjust, are not left behind. Throwing money at them for school during this transition period may the worst idea.

Response:
Assertion. You have no proof that this would be a bad idea.

Someone who may possibly be unstable, for the time being immediately after duty, is not someone who should be trusted with EXTRA money.

Response:
Assertion. You have no proof to back up that statement. You are also stating that the money would be extra. How do you know this?

College students get grants, and loan to help with their school. To say they are "dependant on their parents" insinuates their parents are paying for this.
Response:
A traditional student just out of High School will usually not be at an advanced age where others are dependent on that student to survive.

Veterans have a large number of resources given to them by the military they served for. They are working a full time job for 4+ years, while having numerous amenities paid for while on service. They are given tuition assistance during active duty and reserves

Response:
Refer to the last round.

(This was attached to last statement above.)
(which the "stipulations" Pro mentioned have not been proven or shown at all)

Response:
I mentioned that I have experienced and witnessed this myself. This is a firsthand account Source witch is an academically excepted source. (Thelin, William H.. Writing without formulas. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2008. Print)

In conclusion, Veterans may need the help, I know because I have seen this first hand. There are programs for everyone that is attending school (that the degree plan is a prior approved plan) in the NYS, it is called the 599 program (NYS Department of Labor). The problem is that this program is not funded. This country does not need homeless veterans. To me (I'm a Veteran so I am a valid source) this extension of unemployment benefits is the boost that most Veterans need to continue being productive Citizen.
Domr

Con

I will keep my response brief, as i posted an argument in Round 1, when it was acceptance only...

""Once you have your Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) scores you can choose a MOS that you qualified for."

If you are not eligible, based on your test scores, for another MOS that is not a problem for the government to handle, that is a problem for the individual to educate themsleves and practice for their ASVAB. (I have taken the ASVAB, and it is not a difficult test.)


"You are assuming that all Service Members are properly briefed before signing their contracts. Service members are lied"

You are assuming that every service member is lied to. The contract clearly states their term. If you are arguing that contract ending is deserving of unemployment, then professional athletes should be given unemployment. NOT VALID

"Even if they lose their civilian job?" (in reference to reservists getting fired from their personal job, outside of the military)

No, they would then qualify for unemployment benefits per the regulations I opened up with (assuming they were fired from their civilian job.


Most of my arguments have been rebuttaled with "assertion". While Pro is making assertions on all of his based on his personal experience. He has not met with every person, or polled veterans to make any proof.


Pro is giving anectodal evidence on most of his arguments. I have already proven their are more than enough information on the assistance provided to servicemen and women while on active duty, reserve duty, and post duty.


Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by drewsaphor 2 years ago
drewsaphor
Sorry, hard at work with a research project for College class. No worries. Im not structured yet with my debating, and I have no idea what I am doing. Still learning.

In my advanced age, I understand my intellect has more pull then my emotions.

I was a 91B. Wheeled Mechanic.
Posted by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
IAMAWESOME, please provide a valid Reason For Decision as we may understand why you are voting this way.

Thank you
Posted by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
You're welcome, thanks for the quick replies, went very fast,

Again, sorry about Round 1. but it definitely is a interesting debate, I appreciate friendly debaters who don't get caught up in the emotion of a debate. Especially how emotional people can get about the military.

What was your MOS in the army?
Posted by drewsaphor 2 years ago
drewsaphor
Go Packers
Posted by drewsaphor 2 years ago
drewsaphor
Thanks Dom. That was fun. I have gotten some valuable experience from this.
Posted by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
I would like to apologize for not taking round 1 as acceptance only.

I had just accepted a prior debate in which round 1 was not just for acceptance, and was not paying enough to attention when starting this debate.

I hope I do not lose any points because of this, and i will post "no round" in my final round as a courtesy to my opponent.

However, If arguments are posted are posted in the last round, I will give a very quick rebuttal to them as to not completely destroy my case.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
drewsaphorDomrTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro showed discharge to be comparable to getting fired and thus grounds for UB. Furthermore, even Pro agrees that not all finance for college is covered for all servicemen, and thus having UB would help to cover the gap. For servicemen with dependents, UB again helps. College clearly helps get someone a job and succeed in life - hence, soldiers (and everyone) should get it.