The Instigator
Smidday
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
evilestbunny3
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should Scotland vote yes to independence?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 633 times Debate No: 43525
Debate Rounds (5)
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Smidday

Pro

Sorry for the last debate, I have extended the argument to 5 rounds and 72 hours for a response, first round acceptance last round rebuttals and summary whatever you like.

This has become a hot topic in Scotland and indeed the UK as the referendum will commence this year on 18 September 2014.

The debate will revolve around, should Scotland become an independent country, why and why not, I will be on the "for" side, please try and use evidence based on your argument.

This is only an acceptance round, consisting entirely of 5 rounds, the final round will be to summarize our points and reiterate our findings and/or beliefs of the pros or cons of Scotland going independent.

Also, the debate will be from recent and up-to-date information regarding the referendum. Please state why you are against this too.

Good luck and all the best to my opponent.
evilestbunny3

Con

you dumb dumb
Debate Round No. 1
Smidday

Pro

Lol thanks, I'll take that as an acceptance of this debate.


Scottish Independence: History


Why was this union created in the first place?

In 1503, James, King of Scotland married Margaret Tudor, thus creating the Union of the Crowns. Kind James' great-grandson, was the only suitable heir to Queen Elizabeth I and also heir to Scotland. Once he was crowned King of England he brought the Kingdom of Scotland into Great Britain, creating the Acts of Union, to establish one monarch, one parliament and one nation. This was to create a suitable partnership for Scotland as England was larger and in more control, however some of the laws imposed by Westminster were controversial to Scottish law but King James over-looked this as he had limited experience in parliaments. [1]

My opinion is this was an unwise choice, it meant Scotland had to change and adapt to Westminster's policies, although it did mean financial safety from a union and protection from foreign invaders. This would have been sensible if Scotland was in financial turmoil and at constant threat from invasion. However, they remained great allies with foreign nations such as France and Ireland, in fact, many of the Scots spoke French and Gaelic. England was not happy with this and started interfering mid 16 century. The only ones that would possibly invade Scotland was England, but King James was monarch to both nations, extinguishing this possibility. He wanted to be the King of Great Britain for his own personal gain. [2]


Why the Union is outdated and out of touch

This is the 21st Century, people and nations need to adapt and change, however moving forward is not something we seem to be managing, the country is in economic turmoil, whilst the elitist government increases it's MP's salaries by 11% when we, the taxpayer are being told to 'buckle our belts' and live in ever increasing poverty, food banks, benefits and low-income occupations.

Scotland did not want these right wing Tories back in power, they lost the majority vote in Scotland but this meant nothing due to the mass of conservative and right wing groups resided in England.

Even the English populous do also want Scotland to break from the Union, especially the Tories, as this will grant them the upper hand for permanent majority in England meaning they can break ties from the Liberal Democrats. If Scotland had not been included in the 2010 general elections, they would have won the majority vote and seats in parliament. See graph. [3]

From a Scottish view, the Tories are all for London, not interested in the North, apart from the North Sea oil. Scotland is a socialist nation, which is why the SNP have been voted in power in the Scottish parliament. However despite this, Westminster sets the tax rates and policies and many Scots feel that Westminster is out of touch with their beloved and once powerful nation and brought it to its knees. Even a large proportion of English and Welsh believe this too.

Thatcher also sold off oil reserves and the coal mining industries in Scotland and Wales, also closing steel works to keep Westminster afloat, a decision that resolved the short term problem but crippled our economy and export industry in the long-term.

Trading and export

When Norway broke ties from Sweden in 1905, it declared itself a separate monarchy. The reason Norway felt so strongly for splitting from Sweden was due to Swedish politics which were adapting protectionism to its policies, which encourage free trade which encourages taxing imported and exported goods, Norway was more reliant on foreign trade economical, much like Scotland, with its whisky, oil and fishing industry.

England, or should I say Westminster, think in the same sense as the Swedes, they favour free trade and protectionism which reduces government restrictions on trading. It restricts foreign trade as much as possible and closes off markets out with the EU and UK, something that economically is not sensible with foreign competition peaking.

“Scotland was the only one to see an increase in both imports and exports”

If you look at the graph in the link provided below you will see that Scotland’s Exports outweigh its Imports, where as in London this is not the case. Scotland’s, overall trade is small in comparison to London and the South East, however bear in mind that Scotland only has a population of around 5.2 million. This point I will get back to later.

Energy

North Sea oil, gas, wind turbines, hydro-electricity and wave and tidal energy produces enough energy for Scotland to be run and make a profit, with not only fossil fuels but also its renewable energy. Tidal energy alone can potentially make up to 25% of Europe’s 10% potential tidal energy, that’s a massive amount, almost enough energy to power 750,000 homes.

Wind energy can provide up to 25% of Europe’s energy consumption rate, no wonder they want free trade for the UK and to join the European Union. This energy resource has increased in production by 11% each year since being available in Scotland. If you have ever spent a week in Scotland you’ll agree that we have more than enough windy days to compensate for this renewable energy.

Due to our high levels of rainfall and being a coastal country with many reservoirs. Hydro-electricity is greatly beneficial to the nation and was one of the first countries to use this type of renewable energy from the 50’s and 60’s. Having worked for a company Eden Springs, which is a multi-national company with its Head Office based in Scotland near Glasgow. They also used Scottish and yes English reservoirs to produce bottle water for water coolers. Scottish water was always the purest and our main bottling plant was also based in the Head Office. This shows that Scottish bottled water is on par with French Alps water, a market worth billions.

The gas and oil accounts for 60% of the EU’s reserves, “On an internationally comparable basis Scotland is estimated to have the largest oil reserves in the European Union, accounting for nearly 60 per cent of total EU reserves.” Scotland’s oil reserve is estimated to have at least 24 billion barrels of oil. Now last time I checked crude oil barrels sell for around $100 per barrel, before being refined. Scotland has its own oil refineries, its most recent one the government have attempted to shut down is the Grangemouth refinery. Let’s imagine we refine this oil and drill it and sell it at $200 per barrel, as I don’t know the going rate for refined crude oil, as Westminster charge a duty tax of 60%-80%. If Scotland sold this and lived off of renewable energies, 24 billion barrels of oil sold at $200 per barrel creates $4,800,000,000,000 which equates to £2,923,084,800,000. Enough to clear the UK debt. The quotes below have been provided by a credible source which is government run.

  • Oil and gas production is estimated to have contributed around £22 billion to Scottish GDP in 2012 – making it the largest industrial sector in Scotland by a large margin.
  • Since 1976, the UK Government has raised approximately £180 billion in direct tax revenue from oil and gas production. Adjusted for inflation, this is equivalent to approximately £300 billion at 2012-13 prices.
  • In 2011-12 alone, oil and gas production in Scottish waters generated £10.6 billion in tax revenues, the second highest nominal level of tax revenue in the past 25 years.

Nuclear Arms and Nato

The trident has been based in Scotland since 1980, although this was only the date of announcement by the UK government, also many naval bases and BAE systems is based in Scotland. These bases and the Trident programme is a nuclear submarine which has the potential to devastate a nation. Although if you look at the only country to ever have used a nuclear weapon on a civilisation was the U.S. which had catastrophic results, leading to birth defects and cancers in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I say this as someone that comes from Japanese decent and think that using these type of arms on civilians is despicable. Also look at Chernobyl and more recently the Fukushima incident has killed off local wild life, contaminated water and fishing industries. Chernobyl was an explosion in Soviet Russia in Ukraine which has left it a derelict place.

NATO, is a group that supports nuclear arms and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq in search for Weapons of Mass Destruction, these of which were never found. Both illegal wars which have caused yet more chaos in Britain, look at the Woolwich murder of a British soldier, the 7/7 attacks in London and the Glasgow airport suicide attempt. Clearly, as there are numbers of Muslim extremist residing in Britain, we, the public have become a target and statistic. Many of these supporters of Islam have went over to Syria to help tackle the Assad regime, yet another war that America nearly dragged us into, thankfully this was dismissed by MPs that didn’t wish to see more bloodshed.

My question is from previous history, what is the benefit from being in NATO? What do we gain? Security? How can you claim that we are secure when we have Islamic Extremists attacking the West, and are NATO soldiers ever directly involved in security of this nation? No, look at the London Olympics, all British soldiers guarding the stadiums. NATO want the UK for the sole purpose to have more nukes and firepower, should there ever be a conflict in Asia and Russia, it gives them substantial backing.

http://en.wikipedia.org...;[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org...;[2]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...;[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org...;

http://en.wikipedia.org...

https://www.uktradeinfo.com...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

evilestbunny3

Con

evilestbunny3 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Smidday

Pro

Well, I'll leave my opponent to rebute my points
evilestbunny3

Con

evilestbunny3 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Smidday

Pro

I would just like to add more points, it seems my opponent has given up on this debate.


Becoming Independent


If Scotland went independent, we could break ties from this dying union, the death of it is inevitable, it’s unsustainable and Scotland should hasten this process. Scotland has voted in its own parliament, to give it more power and relevance to its politics, however this power is limited as they cannot adjust any tax rates, having this power could fundamentally restore this nation to become a powerful one, such as Norway which broke ties from its Scandinavian Union, has North Sea oil and is one of the only nations not in debt and worth billions, Scotland has this potential too.



Population and Immigration

The UK population is 63,705,000 as of 2013, the Scottish population is around 5.2 million as previously discussed. This to me and many others reading this debate would obviously side to managing a smaller population as you can hear more voices and demands rather than trying to satisfy the average majority. The tax revenue created by the Scots compensates more than the government funding provided back from Westminster, which proves that Scotland is self-sufficient in the public sector and my previous arguments prove that it is also privately sustainable.
The immigration rate in Scotland is on the rise, the UK opted to join the EU opening opportunity for Eastern Europeans from poor countries to migrate here. From experience, I have met many asylum seekers and immigrants that came to the UK for benefits as other European countries do not provide these to non-nationals.
evilestbunny3

Con

evilestbunny3 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Smidday

Pro

Nothing to rebuttal
evilestbunny3

Con

evilestbunny3 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
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