The Instigator
asidy
Con (against)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
murphm17
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points

Should Transgender students be allowed to choose a bathroom?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
murphm17
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/1/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,145 times Debate No: 48162
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (3)

 

asidy

Con

I wish to debate whether or not transgender students should be allowed to use the bathroom not meant for their sex. I vote no.

1. What does it solve?

The idea is supposed to allow transgender students to be more comfortable when using these facilities. These facilities are separated by SEX not GENDER. Transgender students have a gender not matching their sex. This is the problem, but is also very unintuitive. Transgender is when the gender does not match up with your sex. Since bathrooms are divided based on sex, which is due to how the facilities are designed to work and many other factors, why would it make sense to allow the other sex to use the bathroom? This seems like it is completely against the arguments transgenders are making. If sex and gender are not the same, why try to link them to make it ok to use the opposite bathroom?

2. Problems for transgender student

With all the violence and hate against gays and transgender out in the OPEN, why would anyone wish to subject themselves to being NUDE with cisgender individuals that might hate them? Being nude and vulnerable everyone can clearly see you are transgendered. Not only could the other sex say inappropriate things they could also perform violent acts much more easily, seeing as many locker rooms are not watched over by an adult. This is something that many students might not consider, and definitely not be prepared for. If you are gay, no body knows you are gay so those feelings are not invoked by you simply stripping down in front of them, however many gays are not safe in bathrooms and suffer the worst bullying here.

3. Problems for non-transgender student
*In many articles I have read those who supported transgender use of the opposite sex bathroom claim that it in no way affects cisgender students*

There is a difference between being progressive and being ridiculous. There are many people who are not raised in such "progressive" house holds. Many would be uncomfortable seeing a transgendered student change in their locker room. Not just because they are "ignorant" but simply because they are not of the same sex. Being progressive is not robbing peter to pay paul, by which I mean to make someone else uncomfortable to offer comfort to another.

4. "Liars"

What about those that are not really transgender and want a peek? What about those that somehow later decide not to be transgender? Is there a fool-proof way to ensure the only ones using their ticket to the other sex bathroom is legit?

One could imagine it would be pretty "cool" among young boys to pretend they are transexual to get to see what the girls locker room look like.

5. Constantly coming out
*I am comparing this to the gay rights, because I am an avid supporter as well as it being another progressive movement that is very similar*

Being gay, you look the same as a straight. If you are using the bathroom nobody can tell you are gay. However, if you are transexual it would be pretty obvious to everyone. Wouldn't it be pretty hard to constantly come out and explain yourself every time you used the bathroom?

6. How would it be enforced

If bathrooms become mixed sex, how would somebody be able to tell whether someone of the opposite sex viewing them change is transgender or a peeping tom? Would they check for proper identification? Would transgenders all of a sudden be given a transgendered identification card in order to protect the rights of cisgendered? I couldn't see this happening as it would obviously violate their rights.
murphm17

Pro

Ok i see where you are coming from, but i think they should have a choice, it is impossible to know but i disagree with this, if there is some guy trying to see girls peeing, which is a terrible arguement because he must be pretty desperate to get a sex change, he should not be allowed to use a girls restroom, but back on topic. They should have a choice as to which bathroom they use, because they may look like a girl, but they are also a guy, so why not let her/him use the boys restroom or the girls restroom, it would be helpfull if there were more unisex bathrooms but i dont see that coming for a while.

im sorry but seeing as i have no time to get my facts together this iss the only information i could post at this time but i would love to come back next round and keep debating with you in all sincerity murphm17.
Debate Round No. 1
asidy

Con

Getting a sex change is proof enough that you are transgender. That would be A ok in my book.

However, I was under the impression that transitioning (students that have not had the sex change) would be allowed to use the other bathroom. I base my opinions solely on those that have transitioned and have created this topic under that impression.

Sorry that I was not clear enough!
murphm17

Pro

Ok thank you for the clarification and i am still saying that some people may be desperate enough to get it changed and it is their body so why not let them pick when they chose to change to another sex go through surgery and then be persucuted for it i think we ow them enough that they can use bathrooms they like. Because, like i said it may be hard for them to live in society with everyone trying to tell them they are worthless and disgusting all the time as well as being exposed as a phony if some idiot decide he wants to fake it t get a peek and then he is'nt called out for it because he is just a teenager this infuriates me and i think those people who do that need to let others who actually got surgery use whichever bathroom they wish.
Debate Round No. 2
asidy

Con

Contrary to what many "progressive" people believe, Transgender does not mean those who have underwent the sex change. Transgender is a blanket term for the very wide collection, transvestite, transsexual, androgynous, etc etc.

Gender is a social construct, how you understand being male/female is. However, Transgender is the state of having a mismatched gender and sex. You can be Transgender without having a sex change. You can be transwoman, being a woman but having man parts.

I am not saying people who have underwent a sex change should in any way be discriminated against. If you have the sex change to be a woman, you should have the right to use the female bathroom.

What I am saying is that TRANSITIONING people, transgender without the sex change, should not be allowed since this would cause the problems I mentioned.
murphm17

Pro

even still if someone is transgender at school everyone will know anyway so whats the issue. they wont have to explain themselves or it be akward because they are not the same sex (sex change) get it in their mind they are a guy when their a girl and a girl if their a guy. so either way they need to be able to choose how they do it and how their morals show them
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by asidy 3 years ago
asidy
And I appreciate the advice. I will make sure future debates are better ;-)
Posted by asidy 3 years ago
asidy
The answer should be based on logic and measurable metrics
Posted by asidy 3 years ago
asidy
Kbub please debate me on this. This question has nothing to do with what it means to be transgender or any philosophical or more complex meaning than what the title says. It is simply asking if it is a wise move to allow transgendere not yet the correct sex use the wrong bathroom...
y
Posted by subgenius 3 years ago
subgenius
i would support transgender choosing bathrooms if i could claim to be transgender and choose which prison i would be sent to

....

;)
Posted by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
I'm not sure you are responding to my criticism. I'm not talking talking about the definitions of terms but critical analysis of discourse. Think Derrida.
Posted by asidy 3 years ago
asidy
"Choose" - means be allowed to violate the social norms by deciding to use the male bathroom with female parts and vice versa
"Allowed" - basic definition. To permit an activity (choosing bathrooms)
Who is the student - any transgender
Who am I - somebody who can vote

This question is very basic. Should we change our policies to allow transitioning transgender students to use the opposite sex bathroom when they are not at the present time that sex.
Posted by murphm17 3 years ago
murphm17
I agree with the previous comment who do they need to go to and even still that person is no better than he/she is so how can they judge the transgender student
Posted by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
I'm not really talking about the definition of "transgender," but more on what it is to be transgender. The latter is more expansive and complex than the first. You are correct in the literal definition, but I wish we could establish more critically the role of the transgendered person discourse and society before we count benefits and harms. The reason for this is that a critical examination of the transgendered person (and not just "term") will in accordance with the discourse redirect and direct the narrative to an inevitably different product.

For example, what is meant by "choose" in "Should transgender students be allowed to choose a bathroom?" What does this mean for "transgender?" What does it mean to "be allowed?" What does such a phenomenon mean for choice? And who is this transgender student? And who are you in relation? A friend? An observer? A critic? A reporter? A judge? A neighbor? A lover? A teacher? A student? Whom are you asking, to whom do you answer?
Posted by asidy 3 years ago
asidy
Please explain the true meaning of transgender?

Virginia Prince, a famous Transgender rights activist, used the term Transgender to include people who have NOT had the sex change. Thus it is a blanket term...

Since my definition of transgender matches one of the most influential transgender rights activists definition, I fail to see where I am missing the point.
Posted by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
Well, except that Con does understand the sex/gender distinction. I do not think that Con understands what it means to be transgender in the world however.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by TheGamer1998 3 years ago
TheGamer1998
asidymurphm17Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Yes, I don't believe it mattes which bathroom a transgender uses. therefore they have the right to choose which one they want to use
Vote Placed by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
asidymurphm17Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's analysis was almost entirely uncontested. Con outlined the harms of the resolution very clearly and effectively. Pro provided little argumentation, and instead continued to simply repeat her/his position without justification. Nice debate, and great topic.
Vote Placed by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
asidymurphm17Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had bad grammar. Missing a bunch of capitalization and such. Pro got arguments. Con admitted at one point that at least some transgendered students should be allowed to use the opposite sex bathroom.