The Instigator
TMNGerbil
Con (against)
The Contender
BrendanD19
Pro (for)

Should Transgenders Be Allowed to Join the BSA

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2017 Category: Society
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 456 times Debate No: 101241
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

TMNGerbil

Con

Let us assume that by transgender people we mean girls "feeling" they're boys.

The BSA - BOY Scouts of America - is specifically for boys. Yes, there have been girls in it before, but that was either cub scout leaders or CO-ED/venture groups. I know because I'm in one.

Those girls who believe they are boys have that right to live in the delusion that they are boys, but that doesn't change their genetical make-up. "Oh, but what about 'the treatment'?" That does nothing. It's just like somebody choosing to get plastic surgery. They look completely different, but that doesn't change who they are. Guys can't have ovaries, and girls can't produce sperm. It's just the way humans are.

Here is one great quote I've seen (sorry, but I can't name who said it) - "I don't know if it's a girl or a boy until it decides to identify... SAID NO DOCTOR EVER." Why is it, if we supposedly have the right to decide our gender, when the doctor says exactly WHAT YOU ARE at birth? They don't say they can't tell, they say "it's a boy!" or "it's a girl!"

Back to the topic at hand - through all of this proof, you cannot say that a girl identifying as a boy is really a boy. Only boys are allowed to be a BOY scout. It's not like we're called the Tranny Scouts of GrandOl'Frickin'Murica!
BrendanD19

Pro

As a former scout, I can testify that the BSA is a wonderful organization and I have gained a lot from being a part of the Scouts. It is for this reason that I believe that Transgender boys should be allowed to join the BSA, so they too can gain from the lessons I learned in scouts about how to be a better person in every aspect of life.
The Con argues that gender identity is fixed and binary, saying people who identify with a gender different from the gender they were assigned at birth are "delusional". The main problem with this claim is that it conflates the concept of biological sex with the concept of gender. According to the American Psychological Association, "Sex usually refers to the biological aspects of maleness or femaleness, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female." (See Source 1)
The example the Con gives of how "guys can't have ovaries and girls can't produce sperm" completely ignores this distinction. Moreover, this statement is not medically true, as intersexuality is a real phenomenon which disproves this notion. A person who is XX intersex will appear to be male, based on their genitalia and will likely be declared a male at birth and raised as a male, however, they still have the chromosomes and ovaries of a female (see source 2).
As to people who are Transgender, while they may have been assigned a sex, and consequently a gender at birth, scientific evidence suggests that the brain structure of transgender people differs from the brain structure of people of the same sex. Brain scans have shown that transgender people often have brain structures which are more in line with the opposite sex they were assigned at birth. This disconnect between the brain structure and the reproductive anatomy is what causes people to identify with a different gender. (see source 3) As the brain controls the body, not the body which controls the brain, these people are, therefore, for all intents and purposes, the gender they identify as.

As for the final remarks by the Con, I first will highlight the use of a transphobic slur by the con. This phrase is inappropriate and should be taken into account on his conduct point. Secondly, I would like to remind the Con that allowing Transgender boys into the boy scouts does not mean that it will be open to all transgender people, only those whose gender identity is male. Transgender girls will not be allowed to join.


1. http://www.apa.org...
2. https://medlineplus.gov...
3. https://www.newscientist.com...
Debate Round No. 1
TMNGerbil

Con

I have to admit that yes, I overlooked the supposed difference between 'sex' and 'gender'. I also want to apologize, because as I read through my previous arguement, I seemed somewhat irrational and rude, so I'm sorry. But I still stand with my point. Yes, the BSA is a great program. I myself achieved the Eagle rank and have been involve with scouts for a while. This is one reason that I do stand with my statement.

I have one question that we should get out of the way - what exactly are we considering 'transgenderism?' We could take it to the extreme where they have a certain procedure done to gain or rid themselves of 'things'; or we could say that it's just choosing to identify as one 'gender.' I'm going to meet in the middle and say they are hard-core identifiers.

Let's look at the subject from a broader standpoint. If we start allowing people to choose whatever they please to do, we have anarchy. If a girl (I will NOT use the term female because that connotes the idea that these people are no more than things) chooses to identify as a boy and is allowed to join the BSA, then does that mean that the next-door-neighbor's sixteen-year-old kid can go to a bar and identify as a 21-year-old and start drinking? I realize this is slightly different, but it's the same context. Just because that kid says he's a 21-year-old doesn't make him 21 years old. "But what if he feels/acts older or more mature than he really is? Then isn't it just a mental thing?" Yes, it is a mental thing, but that doesn't change the fact he's twenty-one, or in this case that she's a she.

Now let's reverse and talk more about scouting. The only time that girls are allowed in scouting is in a Venture crew. Venturing is less of making a better person out of you and more of giving you adventure, hence the name. To truly find the answer for this topic, we need to look into the past of the origin of scouting (source 1). Robert Baden-Powell started to teach young boys survival skills and other skills. "With the aid of other instructors, he taught the boys about camping, observation, deduction, woodcraft, boating, lifesaving, patriotism, and chivalry." The original intent of scouting - which is still in play today - was and is to prepare boys for the future and for emergencies. If you read four paragraphs in, it mentions girl scouts. These are not a part of the BSA. The transgender girls who want to be a scout can go join that.

The last thing I want to mention before turning it over to pro is this: yes, sometimes transgenderism is a mental thing. A lot of the time it is caused by wanting to be something you're not, somewhat like jealousy. But why do they find it bad to be what they are - a girl? It is the same reason many people commit suicide. These people are taught that difference is wrong. We as a society and nation treat difference as a bad thing - that we need to assimilate people into our world. NO. Difference should be embraced. Difference is what gives the world beauty. These girls who want to be guys... They are just trying to be something else. Sure they are going to have to live with wanting to be a guy. But it's also like abortions. The parent has to just live with the child. We have to live with our differences, our trials.

All in all, these transgender people should not be allowed to join the BSA because they are different, but that's okay. They should not be allowed to join because they aren't boys, but that's not something to be ashamed of. I mean, I'm a guy and I don't see why they would want to be us. I mean, we're nothing special... These women - they bring life to the world. They bring happiness. They bring beauty (because men definitely don't). If they can't see that - they can't accept that - then they need to open there eyes. They need to find the strength they have as women and live with their womanly selves.

1: http://www.history.com...

[This is mainly a side-note. I am not going to be using many sources, no matter how in-credible it seems. I could look at sources forever and find tons of opposing viewpoints and tons of 'tests' that contradict each other. The best way is the logical way]
BrendanD19

Pro

As for the first question of what we are defining as transgenderism, I will refer the con to the first source I provided in round 1, which states, "people whose gender identity and/or gender role do not conform to what is typically associated with their sex assigned at birth." Now, most transgender people I know personally are probably what you would consider "hardcore identifiers" who are starting the process of hormone replacement therapy.

The hypothetical posed by the con of people being able to identify as a 21-year-old is simply ridiculous. The "feeling" of being another gender than you were assigned at birth is not a mere opinion, it is directly related to how your brain is structured, as I pointed out in my third source in round one. Gender, unlike age, is not fixed. Age is determined by how many years you have been alive. Gender is determined by brain structure.

The con then brings up information about scouting itself however this does not in anyway show that transgender boys should be banned from learning these same lessons as cisgender boys. Moreover, the con points to girl scouts and says " transgender girls who want to be a scout can go join that." The key problem with this is that we are not talking about transgender girls, but transgender boys. If the con says that it was meant to refer to females who identify as boys, then I would again like to highlight the transphobia of this remark if it was meant in this way. If it was an honest mistake, and the con meant to say transgender boys, then I would like to point out that the corollary would mean that transgender girls who want to be in girls scouts should be forced to be in boy scouts. There is an obvious problem with this logic, in that it forces people who, for all intents and purposes are the gender they identify as, to join the organization for the wrong gender.

The con then compares being transgender to jealousy, however, this completely ignores what I have previously pointed out, that transgenderism is the result of having a brain structure which differs one's sex. This is not a mere opinion, like being envious of another person's possessions or status in society, it is a neurological phenomenon. These people are not simply envious, they have brain structures which are different from the brain structure of other people of their assigned gender. They are neurologically and psychologically a different gender from what they were assigned at birth. The con claims that these people commit suicide out of jealousy is simply disgusting and false. The reasons trans people commit suicide are overwhelmingly because of rejection by friends and family, bullying by their peers and social prejudice.

The con states this is "like abortion", "The parent has to just live with the child." This statement is utter nonsense, as despite what one feels about abortion personally, that doesn't change the fact that in the status quo, it is legal for women to terminate pregnancies or give the baby up for adoption. They do not have to live with the child.

The con's arguments for why Transgender boys should not be able to become scouts hinges on a complete disregard for scientific evidence about transgenderism and transphobic prejudice. He calls on transgender boys to find "strength they have as women and live with their womanly selves." This completely ignores that fact that these people are not women. They do not have a woman's brain, but a man's brain. By forcing them to live as something they are not the con is only further perpetuating social stigma and prejudice that is faced by the transgender community.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Debate Round No. 2
TMNGerbil

Con

Okay. You know what? Pro wins. They can come up with millions of facts to crush me, and I can't do anything about it. I do overlook some things and I am sorry, but I still stand with my statement. I will say though that pro insists on acting as if all these people are are biological outliers and not real people. Sure they have slightly different brain makeup, but that is not the only reason transgender people decide to follow that path.

One excuse I have is I cannot put my exact thoughts into words without it sounding stupid. It's a lame excuse I know, but its the truth nevertheless.

So in conclusion, I surrender. BUT, I still stand with my side. Thank you for accepting this and for crushing me extremely. No hard feelings though.
BrendanD19

Pro

Noting the Con's concession, I extend my arguments and encourage the judges to vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by BrendanD19 9 months ago
BrendanD19
So using evidence, statistics and science to support my arguments is robotic?
Posted by TMNGerbil 9 months ago
TMNGerbil
No, that is how YOU debate. I prefer to keep people separate from robots. People aren't projects, they aren't robots, they are PEOPLE. I do not debate using stupid resources that imply the opposite. I don't use stupid resources that only show numbers and supposed facts when talking about humans - beings that are completely different and unpredictable. I do NOT debate heartlessly or using "facts" that make you sound like a robot yourself.
Posted by BrendanD19 10 months ago
BrendanD19
That's how you debate
Posted by TMNGerbil 10 months ago
TMNGerbil
This has nothing to do with my argument, bit WHY ARE YOU SO ROBOTIC?! Come on, seriously? You treat people as if they aren't even people! You act as if you don't give a flip about people! All you are is a sheep who goes with the society's view of crap, and you just spurt out useless facts! You don't care about anything! Why are you such a robot?!
Posted by TMNGerbil 10 months ago
TMNGerbil
I'm sorry. I re-addressed my point in my newest argument. I won't do it again. Go ahead, just ignore my other comments. I apologize. I didn't mean to do anything wrong, I just didn't think about it.
Posted by CosmoJarvis 10 months ago
CosmoJarvis
I agree with Brendan. TMNG should not be allowed to post his argument in the comments. Unless he posts sources from his arguments in the comments, things pertaining to his argument or rebuttals in the comments section should be discarded and ignored by voters.
Posted by BrendanD19 10 months ago
BrendanD19
Please include in your argument not in the comments. Only arguments will be considered
Posted by TMNGerbil 10 months ago
TMNGerbil
One other thing I forgot to say was this - Some may be inclined to "identify" as something else because they think being something else is bad. For example, being highly intelligent is stereotypically for men. (http://science.sciencemag.org...) That may be a driving force for it. But that shouldn't be a reason. Do you know what causes that? The same thing that causes people to consider and commit suicide! Based on society's expectations, we have taught everyone that difference is BAD, that not fitting into one specific category is BAD!!!
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