The Instigator
FrankTheBob
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Carthage
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Should "Under God" be taken out of The Pledge of Allegiance?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
FrankTheBob
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/12/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,453 times Debate No: 54557
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

FrankTheBob

Pro

Hello. I will be arguing that "under god" should be taken out of the pledge. Keeping those words in completely violates the 1st Amendment and breaks the boundary between church and state.
Carthage

Con

First thing: There are no laws about saying the pledge. You can choose not to, or leave out parts. So, the governments not forcing you to say anything religious, therefore is not violating the First Amendment. If just putting it in the pledge is in anyway breaking the First Amendment, than the entire pledge is. The entire pledge is pro-American. Is making it pro-American making you forfeit you freedom of speech to support any country? As for the seperation of church and state, you have the entire idea wrong. The church is not an idea of God. It's a group of people. Sepreration of church and state stops the church from directly affecting the government. The words "Under God", and even "In God We Trust", aren't in anyway related to giving powereto the church to make legislative decisions. My main reason for keeping it is this: Controversy. The government would get way too much crap for this, and it's not bad for it to be in the pledge. God bless you.
Debate Round No. 1
FrankTheBob

Pro

It is true that that there is no law about no saying the pledge, but it's forced socially. Teachers force you to do it most of the time, but this is beside the point. From the 1800s to the 1950s, we had a pledge with out "under god" before it was put in. My question is: Why? Why did we add two words into the pledge that seem to do nothing other than to alienate non-Christians? These words in the pledge serve no purpose. Before you say that the pledge is not specific about what god it's referencing, it's obviously referencing the Christian god. If "under god" was originally in the pledge, I wouldn't mind it being there. If "under god" added something patriotic to the pledge other than propping up one religion over another, I wouldn't mind it being there. But since it was added in, serves no purpose, and offends, it is clear that it needs to go.
Carthage

Con

But since it was added in, serves no purpose, and offends, it is clear that it needs to go". I fail to see how because it was added in is a reason for the words to be taken out. We add lots of stuff to government. Should it all be taken out? Of course not! As for serving no purpose, neither does the pledge, really. It's definitely not a binding oath. And taking it out would offend some people. I'll bet it would offend more people than leaving it in does (regardless of if they have solid grounds to be offended by it). Effectively, what would happen if we took it out would be more controversy and offense. God bless you.
Debate Round No. 2
FrankTheBob

Pro

My opponent seems to think I want everything added by government removed. This is wrong on so many levels. Not everything added by government is bad, but there are somethings that deserve to be removed. "Under God" is one of those things. Why do you think I would like to remove "Under God" from the pledge? A surprising number of people would answer this question: "...because you're an Atheist and when ever you hear the word "god" you soil yourself and cry." This is far from my reason why. You see, it is NOT okay for the government to put one set of beliefs above another. What if the government had put in "Under Allah" instead of "Under God" in the 50s? Would you still support the idea that the pledge should stay. We don't just have freedom of religion, we also have freedom from religion. Freedom from the establishment forcing their beliefs in a public funded environment. I believe I have made my point very clear.
Carthage

Con

I never said you want all government taken out. I was just using all of government as an example for my point. And you seem to not know the First Amendment. The government is not forcing you to do or say ANYTHING. There is no way anyone can claim their freedom of religion is broken with the pledge. You use a common response that I never made. You yourself said those words were offensive. You have yet to rebut my points, you just restated previous points I had already rebutted. So, recap: There is no violation of freedom of (or from) religion, it would be offensive to a large (probably bigger) number of people to take it out, and it should be kept in. God bless you.
Debate Round No. 3
FrankTheBob

Pro

You have avoided the question I wanted you to answer. I will say it again in hope that you will answer it.

What if the government had put in "Under Allah" instead of "Under God" in the 50s? Would you still support the idea that the pledge should stay.

It seems this is my last input in this debate. It has been fun debating with you.
Carthage

Con

If the government had put "Under Allah" instead of "Under God" I would simply not say that part of the pledge. You have yet to rebut these points: 1.There is no violation of freedom of (or from) religion, and2 it would be offensive to a large (probably bigger) number of people to take it out. I take it you think they are valid , then. So, we should keep the words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. God bless you.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by ChadIrvin 2 years ago
ChadIrvin
This country was founded on Christianity so why would we pu "Under Allah" in it? And if they did, it would not make any sense and is definitely easy to not say it. The government isn't forcing anyone to say these words.
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
@Craighawley215 "if the "Under God" is removed from the Pledge of Allegiance, then the document doesn't cease to show bias, it merely shifts its bias to an Atheistic stance."

This is false. If it said "we don't believe in god", then I would agree with you, and It should not be there.

BUT if you just take "under god" then there would not be stance about it. Then, real freedom.
Posted by Craighawley215 2 years ago
Craighawley215
The "Under God" is a direct reference to Abraham Lincoln's statements about the United States being under God.

Technically speaking, if the "Under God" is removed from the Pledge of Allegiance, then the document doesn't cease to show bias, it merely shifts its bias to an Atheistic stance.

Therefore, the best solution, in my humble opinion, is to keep the pledge as it currently is, while also allowing those who speak the pledge to verbally omit or skip the "Under God" portion of the Pledge. I recently took a federal oath for my swearing in to Americorps, this past February, and "Under God" was an optional part of the oath. There were no consequences for saying/not saying "Under God." This, in reality, means that the ultimate choice is made by the individual, as it should be.
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
But the "in god we trust" doesn't show freedom. "Under god" doesn't either.
But probably a better resolution would be "was it a good idea to put "under god" in the pledge...?". I don't think there are good reasons to say it was.

Well, at the end I don't care about the pledge of allegiance, I think it's already pretty dumb without the "under god".
Posted by Carthage 2 years ago
Carthage
Huh. Posted my debate in the comments. Can someone delete it?
Posted by Carthage 2 years ago
Carthage
First thing: There are no laws about saying the pledge. You can choose not to, or leave out parts. So, the governments not forcing you to say anything religious, therefore is not violating the First Amendment. If just putting it in the pledge is in anyway breaking the First Amendment, than the entire pledge is. The entire pledge is pro-American. Is making it pro-American making you forfeit you freedom of speech to support any country? As for the seperation of church and state, you have the entire idea wrong. The church is not an idea of God. It's a group of people. Sepreration of church and state stops the church from directly affecting the government. The words "Under God", and even "In God We Trust", aren't in anyway related to giving powereto the church to make legislative decisions. My main reason for keeping it is this: Controversy. The government would get way too much crap for this, and it's not bad for it to be in the pledge. God bless you.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by SNP1 2 years ago
SNP1
FrankTheBobCarthageTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro points out the favoritism of having "under God" in the pledge (arguments Pro).
Vote Placed by Romanii 2 years ago
Romanii
FrankTheBobCarthageTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: This was actually kind of hard to vote on. Pro's major argument was that there is no reason to add in the words "under God" and that it alienates non-Christians. Con had the argument that no one is obligated to say the pledge. However, Pro won it with his points that the government is not allowed to show favoritism towards one religion over an other, even if they aren't necessarily forcing anything on anyone.