The Instigator
blvsian
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
asta
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Should affirmative action be abolished?

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/4/2018 Category: Education
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 430 times Debate No: 114958
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

blvsian

Con

I am against the abolition of affirmative action in the collegiate education system. I am curious to see how the opposition feels and the case they make. The first round is acceptance.
asta

Pro

I accept this big boy challange.
Debate Round No. 1
blvsian

Con

Firstly: AA is needed to provide give POCs a chance in education and improve diversity.

As it is already known, POCs face discrimination on an almost daily basis as they are judged and ridiculed by their white counterparts. Many people who are against AA claim that this is essentially "reverse" discrimination, who this is certainly not ture. With AA action is place, white students are still more likely to be selected compared to their black or hispanic counterparts. One example is proven when Abigail Fisher applied to UT was denied to affirmative action. She is the child of UT alumni, and hoped her legacy status would compensate for the fact that she did not graduate in the top 10 percent of her class, and her GPA (3.59) and test scores (SAT: 1180 out of 1600) were not high enough to qualify her for automatic admission. Nonetheless, these numbers were higher than of 47 students who were admitted in part based on their personal achievements. Abigail Fisher"s case, only five of the 47 students admitted with lower grades and test scores than Abigail"s were minority, while 42 were white. Never mind that 168 black and Latino students with grades as good as or better than Fisher"s were also denied entry into the university that year. This shows that even with AA in place, only a few POCs are still being enrolled. This is due impart to the fact that white people still have more privilege whether only greatly or slightly more than POCs simply due to skin color, leading to my second point.

Secondly: Straight white cisgender males already more privileged.

Straight white cisgender men have a far greater privilege than every other person whether it is acknowledged or not. Many POCs, especially black people, grow up in many urban and underdeveloped areas where they do not have the same educational or professional opportunities. They are not provided the same educational funding, resources, or support due to the fact they are ignored more often than others. Thus meaning that they may not achieve the best teaching and may not even achieve the same average of test scores as whites do, which unfortunately is determined for college placement. Myriad studies concluded that standardized test scores are a poor predictor of success in college and in life. More than 80 percent of the variance in college success is attributable to factors other than test scores. Over and over across our country, we find leaders of business, nonprofits, or policy with checkered academic transcripts. Laszlo Bock, senior vice president of human relations and operations at Google, told the New York Times that company officials found that GPAs and test scores are "worthless" as predictors of career performance at his company, a company widely admired for its innovative excellence. Bock notes that "learning ability" is the number one criterion for hiring " the capacity to find, weight, and analyze diffuse information, put the pieces together, and figure out what it means for solving real problems and developing something new. Also, it is not just POC's that benefit from AA, white females, people in the LGBTQ, minority religions, and other non-majority classes benefit from AA as well, thus they must NOT be ignored when debating to abolish AA. These "lesser than" classes need to be given an extra inch in the race of life when their already ten miles behind.
asta

Pro

I see that you are using the same argument at least a 2nd consecutive time (I'm not judging, I do it too) but it is something I would like to point out (http://www.debate.org...)

"POCs face discrimination on an almost daily basis as they are judged and ridiculed by their white counterparts." This is not true. While POC may have gotten called the N word every now and then, the vast majority of the time, it is consensual since their friends are the ones who say it. The few times where they actually get "discriminated" are:

a) Not actual discrimination. The definition of discrimination is, "prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment".(https://www.merriam-webster.com...). They don't know if white people have a prejudiced outlook at them. They aren't getting discriminated by action since they are not getting punched or hit from being POC. The only legitimite type of discrimination they may, may endure is job and service(J&S) discrimination, which at least for the job portion, whites endure more of then POC.

b) They do not endure any type of discrimination, not even J&S discrimination on a daily basis.


I read about the Abigail Fisher case and she is against Affirmitive Action because of her claim that dispite her slightly high grades and SAT scores, she didn't get into the college she wanted while kids with lower grades and SAT scores got in(http://www.nydailynews.com...). This could be due to the fact that the kids with lower grades could have had more extraciriculars. After all, this may apply to only 47 kids out of the thousands of kids that applied.

"This shows that even with AA in place, only a few POCs are still being enrolled." This could be due to the fact that POC tend to be less qualified then Europeans. This may not be due to Biology, but it could be due to how they were raised. If your raised well, if you do the right thing in life, such as getting good grades, being in extracirriculars, maybe working a job if your 16+, if you live without underage drugs, if you wait until marrage to have sex, then you will do fine, and with drive and ambition, you will probably do better then fine.

The thing is Europeans tend to do this better then POCs. Africans tend to be more athletic then Europeans. Does this mean there is some sort of 'African Privilige' that only Africans have? Or is it due to the fact that Africans tend to play more basketball then Europeans? Asians tend to earn more money then other POC, and almost as much as Europeans (http://dmc122011.delmar.edu...). Does this mean that there is "Asian privilige" No. It's because Asians tend to be better for the workforce then other POC.

"Straight white cisgender men have a far greater privilege than every other person whether it is acknowledged or not." I've talked a lot about race. Now time to move on to the sexes/genders (they should be the same thing, but I digress). Males tend to earn more then Females because Males are better equipped for the workplace and tend to be more ambitious then Females. Conversely, Females tend to live 4 years longer then Males. Females are also significently less likely to go to jail then Males. Does this mean that there is some Female privilige? No. The reason why females are less likely to die young and the reason why they are less likely to go to jail is because they tend to do less dangerous stuff then males. Ambition is a double edged sword.

"Many POCs, especially black people, grow up in many urban and underdeveloped areas where they do not have the same educational or professional opportunities." Not all of them do though. If they are failing, it's because they are poor, not because they are POC. Also a quote from the philanthropic Bill Gates, "If your born poor, it's not your mistake. If you die poor, it's your mistake"(https://www.coolnsmart.com...). Ben Carson and Daymond John started out poor, yet they are both sucessful. In other words, it's entirely feisible for poor people to become sucessful. They have to have consistently determination to lift themselves out of poverty. This is how their prosperity can be achieved. This won't be achieved through depending on AA that even you said fails at helping POCs, "even with Affirmitive Action in place, only a few POCs are still being enrolled." Even you said that AA doesn't work.

"They are not provided the same educational funding, resources, or support due to the fact they are ignored more often than others." The government funds black schools the same amount they fund non-ghetto schools. Also, they are in the same school, so sepreate funding is kindof impossible without segregation which doesn't exist anymore.

"Myriad studies concluded that standardized test scores are a poor predictor of success in college and in life. More than 80 percent of the variance in college success is attributable to factors other than test scores." Show me the link where it says this. Also, those other factors could be due to extraciriculars and work expierience that are had by the applicant. Since many POC tend to work 2+ jobs as a minor, they can use this on their college resume. But instead, they depend on welfare and AA.

"Over and over across our country, we find leaders of business, nonprofits, or policy with checkered academic transcripts. Laszlo Bock, senior vice president of human relations and operations at Google, told the New York Times that company officials found that GPAs and test scores are "worthless" as predictors of career performance at his company, a company widely admired for its innovative excellence."
It's because they have Grit and determination to get things done. To them, getting an A+ just makes you cocky and when something doesn't go their way, they don't have much expierience to handle it. In fact, in a quote you selected, it states, "the capacity to find, weight, and analyze diffuse information, put the pieces together, and figure out what it means for solving real problems and developing something new." He didn't get in his high position because he was white. He got there because he was tough and he didn't give up.

"Also, it is not just POC's that benefit from AA, white females, people in the LGBTQ, minority religions, and other non-majority classes benefit from AA as well, thus they must NOT be ignored when debating to abolish AA. These "lesser than" classes need to be given an extra inch in the race of life when their already ten miles behind." AA gives people job advantages. The thing is, these job advantages come at the cost of someone else. If you hire an African who didn't earn the job over a European who is more qualified, then although that benefits the African, it harms the European. It's essentially mercintalism. Only 1 person will get the job. The thing is, do you give it to the not qualified person or to the qualified person?

I await you response. Good luck.
Debate Round No. 2
blvsian

Con

I"d like to start off by saying that, yes, I am using the same arguments as my previous debate. This is due to the fact that a response was never given to that debate and it was ended before rebuttal. Hence, the reuse of the argument. Also I"d like to quickly define Affirmative Action for those who don"t know, "an active effort to improve the employment or educational opportunities of members of minority groups and women", thanks.

"While POC may have gotten called the N word every now and then, the vast majority of the time, it is consensual since their friends are the ones who say it." I would like to mention that you seem to be confused over the difference between POCs and Black people. POC encompasses all non-white races; Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, Africans, etc.. If you want to speak about POC, you should stick to that. You have jumped from POC, to Africans, to African Americans. I frankly, am confused. Many BLM supporters and overall friends/acquaintances of Africans Americans know not to or choose not to reciprocate the N word. The only people who use the word are those who are racially biased, discriminatory, or overall ignorant to the historical meaning of the word.

"Not actual discrimination" "not even J&S discrimination on a daily basis." Well I"d like to point out that we have a clash of definitions. My source defines it as "treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit". There have been numerous occasions where POCs, women, and LGBTQ people have faced discrimination in both the personal aspect and the Job and Service aspect that you brought up as well. Some examples include Godfrey v. City of Chicago (race and gender), O"Bannon v. Friedman"s (race), and Butler v. Home Depot, Inc. (gender) just to name a few. POCs, African Americans in particular, are also told on a daily basis that their natural hairstyles such as braids, dreads, or afros are considered to be "unprofessional" for the workplace, when it is a cultural aspect of life.

As for your attack on the Abigail case, I said in MY argument that in "Abigail Fisher"s case, only five of the 47 students admitted with lower grades and test scores than Abigail"s were minority, while 42 were white. Never mind that 168 black and Latino students with grades as good as or better than Fisher"s were also denied entry into the university that year.". Thus it shows that her case is pretty irrelevant for the side against AA because "it benefits only African Americans" as 89% of those enrolled before her where her white counterparts.

"This could be due to the fact that POC tend to be less qualified then Europeans" I"d like to state that there is a difference between "then" and "than" as it seems that in most of your argument you"re using the incorrect word, just fyi for future debates. Also, this sentence is very racist in upon itself as you are stating a discriminatory unfactual statement that POCs are inherently inferior to Euro decesdents. Not ALL African Americans " live with underage drugs, have premarital sex", this is a modern black stereotype that many white people believe. In fact, there are many white people and other POCs who due participate in these negative things that you listed. So in turn, negates your entire attack since it was solely targeted to African Americans.

"Males tend to earn more then Females because Males are better equipped for the workplace and tend to be more ambitious then Females".Ambition is a double edged sword." Here I am rebutting your entire paragraph, as I feel the entire thing is RIDICULOUS. Also, remember that "then" and "than" are not the same, grammar is key. Saying that females are less ambitious than men is absurd. Throughout time, even before the era of Rosie the Riveter, women have had to prove themselves in academic, professional, and societal settings. So to simply say that women are less ambitious when they are just as equal, and at times greater than men, in these industries is complete malarkey. That is the thinking of many modern Straight Cisgender White men who have adapted to the patriarchal society that women and all others who do not conform to societal "norms" are lesser than. This is why most, if not all, school shootings in the US have been done by white men, as they feel entitled to the world"s privileges that they are given. And when they realize they aren"t, they feel betrayed by white society and want to lash out. And no, it is not bullying. Because if it were, we would have more queer, mentally/physically challenged, POCs shooting up schools, but this is a debate for another time.

"The thing is Europeans tend to do this better then POCs. Africans tend to be more athletic then Europeans".. Or is it due to the fact that Africans tend to play more basketball then Europeans? Asians tend to earn more money then other POC,...Does this mean that there is "Asian privilige" Fact check? Source? Do you mean African Americans? Are we talking about in the United States? By Europeans, do you mean Caucasians? These are purely racist statements. I won"t even rebut this small paragraph of flagrantly racist and, inaccurate statements. P.S., Asians are POCs.

"The government funds black schools the same amount they fund non-ghetto schools".impossible without segregation which doesn't exist anymore." I respectfully ask that when you debate me, we use proper English, grammar check, and we proofread, but that is besides the point. Are you saying that black equates to the word ghetto? Because "ghetto" started out as a term used to describe the living spaces of Jews during the Nazi era... If we want to move into present, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of ghetto is "a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure." This definition does not equate to only African Americans. Segregation, by court definition, does not exist. However, most INNER CITY schools are underfunded. The population of inner city schools tends to have African American and Hispanic populations at record highs. These are also the schools with underpaid staff, if they have enough staff at all, unhealthy school lunch, tattered and outdated textbooks, little to no technology, and school crime. While schools located in the suburbs have a high Caucasian population and are equipped with the best schools have to offer.

"Since many POC tend to work 2+ jobs as a minor, they can use this on their college resume. But instead, they depend on welfare and AA." I would love to see the source. Let me tell you, this is not a fact. Many POC do not have 2+ jobs as a minor, as this would be a very difficult feat to balance school, homework, and multiple jobs during the week. This along with the extra curricular clubs and volunteer experience that colleges love to see. This statement is one of the most racist and repugnant things that I have ever read in my life and shows that you have done little to no research on this subject. I"m also confused as to what welfare has to do with anything in this debate and how working at two or more jobs has to do with a person"s chances of getting in to a particular college. That"s what this debate is about.

"It's because they have Grit and determination". He didn't get in his high position because he was white. He got there because he was tough and he didn't give up." Spelling. But anyway, This entire response to my argument is invalid. It seems that you were missing the point. My argument had nothing to do with the fact that he was white, or that he had gotten to his high position because he was white. It was to show that people in high positions in companies consider test scores and GPA"s to not be determining factors in whether or not a person is qualified for a certain job. This debate is not just purely about race. If you choose to continue, I advise you to look at the other factors that surround affirmative action.

As to your one and only attack to my second argument how it benefits ALL minority classes. You only talked about how an African, which is NOT the same as African American/Black, is unfairly stealing a job from a European. Let's just say that the European is more qualified, he or she has the complete privilege to be able to find another job elsewhere based on race, while the "African" is more likely to be turned down even before the employer finishes the application solely based on seeing their name and applying stereotypes to it as a black caricature.

I"d like to finish with the fact that you did not post your own constructive debate, you simply attacked my argument. So question, is this a real debate or just an attack on my facts that I presented?

I await your response. Good luck sweetheart.

Sources:
http://gbdhlegal.com...
asta

Pro

"Hence, the reuse of the argument. Also I""d like to quickly define Affirmative Action(AA) for those who dont know, "an active effort to improve the employment or educational opportunities of members of minority groups and women", thanks." I see your trying to be polite and I respect that. You accuse me of making grammar mistakes, you just made 2 in that sentence. However the benefit of these groups comes at the expense of straight, European Christian Males who should have the job on the basis of merit.

"I would like to mention that you seem to be confused over the difference between POCs and Black people. POC encompasses all non-white races; Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, Africans, etc.. If you want to speak about POC, you should stick to that. You have jumped from POC, to Africans, to African Americans. I frankly, am confused." I basically used African Americans as a common representation of POC. I can use almost entirely POC in the future if that would be more convenient and accurate. When I said, "While POC may have gotten called the N word every now and then", the N word was a representation for the N word, the S words and the C word.

"The only people who use the word are those who are racially biased, discriminatory, or overall ignorant to the historical meaning of the word." This is not inherently true. Many people who use the word are just use it as a joke. They knew slavery happened but are glad it's illegal. Many POC tend to use racial swears. Since they tend to use it, many Europeans want to be able to say it too, since they like how it sounds. It is a little racist that POC are allowed use racial swears while Caucasians aren't.

"There have been numerous occasions where POCs, women, and LGBTQ people have faced discrimination in both the personal aspect and the Job and Service aspect that you brought up as well." These cases, whie they exist, are extremely rare and if the business rejects someone on this basis, then the person can simply apply for a job somewhere else. The only time this would be a problem is if all businesses in a certain field reject someone on race or similar basis, which I think is even more rare. Also, due to AA, which gives women and minorities advantages over straight Euro-American males, CisHet Euro-American Males get job discrimination way more than women and minorities, because AA makes it mandatory to discriminate against CisHet Euro-American males.

"POCs, African Americans in particular, are also told on a daily basis that their natural hairstyles such as braids, dreads, or afros are considered to be "unprofessional" for the workplace, when it is a cultural aspect of life." If businesses care it's because they don't want to their employees to look like a mess because it's bad for business. Also how is a hairstyle/culture important? (As an example) If I like to workout, that's fine, but should I be allowed to wear workout clothes to work? No. Businesses tend to care about making profit and if it means forcing your employees to have a certain hairstyle, then so be it. About looks, a Euro-American got harrased because he wore dreadlocks (http://www.nydailynews.com...) and a girl got harrased for wearing a Chinese dress to prom(http://www.ebaumsworld.com...).

The explanation for the discrepancy could be due to other factors, like extracurriculars.

"Not ALL African Americans "live with underage drugs, have premarital sex"" I'm not saying all POC people do. I'm saying they are more likely to do things that make them less qualified. This can change by POC depending on themselves instead of depending on government programs like AA. Caucasians that make bad decisions tend to live bad lives and vice versa. POC that make bad decisions tend to live bad lives and vice versa. The reason why POC people tend to be behind Caucasians is because of AA, which is government dependency.

*"I feel the entire thing is RIDICULOUS." Facts don't care and both sexes have their pros and cons.

"Saying that females are less ambitious than men is absurd. Throughout time, even before the era of Rosie the Riveter, women have had to prove themselves in academic, professional, and societal settings." This was true to only a few women. Most women tended to abide by the rules of their husbands. I don't want to bring society back to when women can't vote, but saying that that females need AA because of the wage gap that "is driven by sexism" is absurd because the wage gap is not due to sexism, it's due to skill. While females tend to be better at ELA (https://www.urmc.rochester.edu..., in "Don't get testy"), Males tend to be better at Math (http://web.stanford.edu..., pg 132). Saying that this is sexist that Site 2 favors males is like saying it"s sexist that Site 1 favors females. Sometimes your gender wins, sometimes it loses. The reason why Males tend to get paid more is because Math is more vital to the workplace then ELA is, although they both are vital.

"That is the thinking of many modern Straight Cisgender White men who have adapted to the patriarchal society that women and all others who do not conform to societal "norms" are lesser than." The west is not a patriarchal society. The muslim world is. The reason why most shootings have been done by Caucasians within the US is because Males biologically tend to be more aggressive than females. Aggressive is in essence, similar to ambition because both traits require determination and drive to achieve, both of which males tend to have more of. They tend to be more ambitious and more aggressive.

"And when they realize they aren't, they feel betrayed by white society and want to lash out. And no, it is not bullying. Because if it were, we would have more queer, mentally/physically challenged, POCs shooting up schools, but this is a debate for another time." A disproportionate amount of people who shoot up schools have a mental disability. But this is a debate for another time.

"Are you saying that black equates to the word ghetto?" No. I was joting ideas and I guess I forgot to check that. You can replace "black" with ghetto.

"However, most INNER CITY schools are underfunded." Compared to other cities, show me the link.

"I would love to see the source."
https://www.bls.gov.... "This statement is one of the most racist and repugnant things that I have ever read in my life and shows that you have done little to no research on this subject." How is me saying that POC being more likely to have a youth job racist? The site shows it for the general US population, but given that the labor force participation rate for all youth was 60.8%, it probably means that poor families tend to get more work experience since they need money. Jobs would better equip them for college.

"It's because they have grit and determination". He didn't get in his high position because he was white. He got there because he was tough and he didn't give up."

"This debate is not just purely about race. If you choose to continue, I advise you to look at the other factors that surround AA." The definition of AA according to http://www.ncsl.org..., "to improve opportunities for historically excluded groups in American society." This is what AA is. It is mostly about Race and gender. I don"t like it. It seems like your paragraph was irrelevant.

"Let's just say that the European is more qualified" If he"s more qualified, he deserves the job. The Name "John" is more likely owned by a Euro-American, the name, "Kamani" is more likely owned by a POC but I will need a reliable citation if it has a significant impact on the probability of someone getting a job.

This is a debate. I tried to access your citation but I couldn"t.

I await your response.

Sources:
http://www.nydailynews.com...
http://www.ebaumsworld.com...
http://www.ncsl.org...
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu...
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu...
http://web.stanford.edu...
https://www.bls.gov...
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by asta 3 months ago
asta
We will probably tie. Next time, increase your character limit and the time amount. Also allow 6 months to vote so this is less likely to end in a tie.
No votes have been placed for this debate.