The Instigator
Whaddupnoob
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Fluffia
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should gay marriage be legalised?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/18/2015 Category: News
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,593 times Debate No: 76658
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

Whaddupnoob

Pro

pls go easy on me as i am a newbie
Rules
No swear words or religious arguments
Rounds
1- Acceptance
2- Definition/Background Info
3- Arguments
Any queries will be settled on comments.
Fluffia

Con

Good day.

This is my first post on this website, so here's to it faring pleasantly.

I'd like to accept the challenge and argue that gay marriage should not be legalized. Keep in mind this may not be what I actually support.

Thanks.
Debate Round No. 1
Whaddupnoob

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate so timely.
I shall now talk about the meaning and background information of gay marriage.
1. What is gay marriage?
Gay marriage (also known as same sex marriage) is marriage between two people of the same sex. Legal recognition of same sex marriage of the possibility to perform a same sex marriage is sometimes referred to as marriage equality or equal marriage, particularly by supporters and some opponents. The legalisation of same sex marriage is characterised as "redefining marriage" by many opponents to gays.
2. Why do most countries not allow same sex marriage?
Most countries, namely middle-eastern countries, classify same sex marriage as not allowed for religious purposes. In countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, the death penalty is the punishment for same sex marriage. The countries think that gays and lesbians are possessed by the devils and therefore the gays and lesbians must by killed.
I will write my sources in the third round as I have to eat lunch now.
I thank my opponent for accepting the debate again.
Oh. I forgot to set another rule.
NO VOTING FOR YOURSELF.
Fluffia

Con

I would like to first reiterate that this may or may not be my actual beliefs.

My argument: Same-sex marriage is not marriage and therefore must not be legalized

Definition of marriage

Marriage is derived from the following Latin term:

Matrimonium

Etymology:

Mater (mother)

If the definition of marriage was love and camaraderie, then there is no denying that “unions of a child and an adult, or an adult child and his or her aging parent, or to roommates who have no sexual relationship, or to groups rather than couples” are also marriage.

Marriage was not created as a law either (Sprigg 2015). In fact, laws merely recognize and regulate the institution that has been prevalent for at least four centuries (The Week 2012).

I will further develop the historic, religious and scientific reasons to refute that "Gay marriage should be legalized" in my next argument.

Citations

Sprigg, Peter. "Family Research Council." Family Research Council. Accessed June 18, 2015.

"How Marriage Has Changed over Centuries." The Week. June 1, 2012. Accessed June 18, 2015.

Debate Round No. 2
Whaddupnoob

Pro

Warning: I am Singaporean so I will use lee kuan yew"s quotes.
1.Arguments for same-sex marriage legalisation
Opponents argue that homosexuality is against the teachings of a God, however in the Bible we do not learn homosexuality is wrong, we learn that intercourse outside of marriage is wrong, whether it be with a male or female.
a)Church and country are not the same thing
Our founding father, the late ex-Prime Minister Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, once commented, "We want a Singapore that our children and those of our fellow citizens would be proud of, a Singapore that would offer all citizens equal and ample opportunities for a fulfilling future."
One of the major reasons that gay marriage is currently illegal is due to the religious interpretation that "homosexuals are sinners." Such a religious perspective should have no place in legal matters in Singapore. We live a secular society that maintains secular views, and yet, gays are not allowed to hold "sensitive positions" in government.
For Christians and Buddhists, the bible and scriptures do not define our legal system, so why does the religious argument "marriage is the union between a man and a women" keep so many gay couples from becoming legally married? Legalizing gay marriage will have no negative impact on religion and the religious view of others, just as religion should not have any impact on the issue of gay marriage.
Practically all of the arguments against gay marriage some back to the issue of religion. Many extremely religious conservatives like to remind people that there is freedom of religion in this country, but some do not seem to understand that freedom of religion does not mean everybody conforming to your own personal religious beliefs. Some will say that since gay marriage is against their religious beliefs it is a violation of their freedom of religion.
The same argument can be made for homosexuals too. Since the beliefs of religious conservatives (generally) are not their beliefs, doesn't that violate the homosexuals' freedom of religion? We are all entitled to our own beliefs, but we should not expect everybody else to conform to them. Same sex marriage has no logical impact on the everyday lives of religious conservatives, but religious conservatives denying same sex couples the right to marry does have a direct impact on the everyday lives of homosexuals.
b)Marriage is about love, not gender
Marriage is a union of love, not a union of gender, the late, great Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. once commented. The concept of "traditional marriage" has changed over time, and the definition of marriage as always being between one man and one woman is historically inaccurate.
Official unions between same-sex couples, indistinguishable from marriages except for gender, existed and were common until the 13th Century in many countries, with the ceremonies performed in churches and the union sealed with a kiss between the two parties. The definition of love, according to dictionary.com is as follows: "Very strong affection; an intense feeling of tender affection and compassion."
If people feel this way towards each other, then there is absolutely no reason why they should not be allowed to marry each other at all, which leads me nicely to my third point...
c)Freedom of Choice (FOC)
People should have a freedom of choice in whatever they do. If they choose to marry people of the same gender, there is absolutely no problem with that. It is their choice, their lives and they are not our servants; we have no right to lord over their choices. Let people live how they want to live and they won"t change how you (want to) live. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation, so why make their life harder? They just want the same thing that you want, to be happy. I believe that all people whether they are gay, or lesbian, or bisexual, they should all be able to marry whoever they fall in love with.
Furthermore, this ban serves only to hurt, to discriminate and to deprive same-sex couples and their families of equal dignity, to label and treat them as second-class citizens, and to deem them unworthy of participation in one of the fundamental institutions of our society
While gay couples do not have the ability to procreate, only natural marriage can consistently provide a stable and nurturing environment for the growth of the next generation. On top of that, researchers have strengthened this idea, showing that the optimum environment for the growth and maturation of children is under the protection from a father and a mother.
d)The benefits for children
In Singapore today many opposite-sex couples decide to tie the knot to provide their children with the legal security and social recognition that comes with having legally married parents.
Children being raised by same-sex couples benefit from marriage in similar ways. When their parents have the right to marry, the prejudice, stigma and discrimination against families headed by same-sex couples is reduced.
It is because of these links that support for marriage equality is highest among same-sex couples with children and is well above the national average among opposite-sex couples with children.
Also, most adoption agencies discriminate against gay couples and make it extremely difficult for them to adopt children. Many agencies will only release children to "married" (as in heterosexual), therefore rejecting stable, loving homosexual parents.
By legalizing gay marriage in Singapore, adoption agencies will be forced to grant the same respect and right to homosexual couples. Gay marriage will increase the chances for thousands of foster children to gain loving parents and families.
e)The benefits to the economy
From the results of university studies over the past decade, 54% of same-sex couples would marry if they could. If each of these couples spent about the same amount on their marriage ceremony that other Singaporeans spend on theirs, they would inject at least an estimated extra S$5-10 million dollars into the economy. This amount includes many thousands of dollars which would be transferred to state government revenues through marriage licence fees.
However, expensive or not, more weddings, whether gay or not, will mean more jobs and stronger small businesses to dominate the wedding industry.
7. References
a)Books/Newspaper Articles/Clippings:
Gordon A. Babst, Emily R. Gill, and Jason Pierceson: Moral Argument, Religion, and Same-Sex Marriage: Advancing the Public Good, Lanham, MD: Lexington Books, 2009.
Jenny Block, Asha Bandele, Dan Savage, Suzanne Kamata, Amy Anderson, ZZ Packer, Min Jin Lee, Antonio Caya, Susan McKinney de Ortega, Liza Monroy, Neal Pollock, Judith Levine, Sasha Hom, Dawn Friedman, Marc and Amy Vachon, Paula Penn-Nabrit, Meredith Maran, Rebecca Barry and Rebecca Walker: One big happy family: 18 writers talk about open adoption, mixed marriage, polyamory, househusbandry, single motherhood, and other aspects of truly modern love, Penguin Group (USA) Inc., 2009.
Tricia Andryszewski: Same-sex Marriage: Moral Wrong or Civil Right? , Twenty-First Century Books, Lerner Publishing Group, Inc., 2009.
Ruth Vanita: Love"s Rite: Same-Sex Marriage in India and the West, Penguin Books India, 2005.
Genesis, Montaigne, Ann Landers, Antonin Scalla, Plato, US National Conference of Catholic Bishops, Katha Pollitt, James Q. Wilson, Hannah Arendt, William Bennett, The Senate Debate on DOMA (Defence of Marriage Act), Jonathan Rauch, Rabbi Yoel H. Kahn, Amy E. Schwartz, William Safire, Barney Frank, Andrew Sullivan and Charles Krauthammer: Same-Sex Marriage: Pro and Con, Vintage Books, Random House, Inc., 1997.
Katrina Kimport: Queering Marriage: Challenging Family Formation in the United States, Rutgers University Press, 2014.
Lim Yan Liang: Thousands gather for annual Pink Dot rally, Top News Page 6, The Straits Times newspaper, June 14, 2015.
Kok Xing Hui: LGBT groups consulted for report, Home Page 7, The Straits Times newspaper, June 17, 2015
b)Internet:
https://www.google.com.sg...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.freedomtomarry.org...
http://www.catholicvote.org...
http://gaymarriage.procon.org...
https://infogr.am...
http://spectrummagazine.org...
www.teenink.com/hot_topics/pride_prejudice/article/245702/Gay-Marriage-Why-it-Should-be-Legalized/
http://ic.galegroup.com...
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.listland.com...
http://les-nuits-masquees.blogspot.sg...
http://collegetimes.com...
Fluffia

Con

Opponents argue that homosexuality is against the teachings of a God, however in the Bible we do not learn homosexuality is wrong, we learn that intercourse outside of marriage is wrong, whether it be with a male or female.

Bible (Amsel n.d):

  • Lev 18:22. "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
  • Lev 20:13. "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
  • 1 Cor. 6:9-10. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

(Please take a look at the resources in the bibliography for direct quotations from different scriptures, and their preachings on homosexuality.)

A(n) historic background

The first recorded evidence of marriage was in 2350 BC, Mesopotamia (Scott 2012). It had little to do with religion or love; instead, “the purpose of marriage was the production of heirs” (The Week 2012).

Anthropologist Kingsley Davis has also said, "The unique trait of what is commonly called marriage is social recognition and approval ... of a couple's engaging in sexual intercourse and bearing and rearing children."

So, by definition, it is not “marriage” if the marriage does not produce a child.

A religious background

Gay couples can, by all means, have a relationship, love, live together, and adopt.

People should have a freedom of choice in whatever they do. If they choose to marry people of the same gender, there is absolutely no problem with that

Marriage, as it stands today, however, is a religious term – something that is done in respect to religion and God.

According to Mary Fairchild, a Biblical expert, the Biblical definition of marriage is the union between man and woman under the following conditions:

1. The couple is married in the eyes of God when the physical union is consummated through sexual intercourse.
2. The couple is married in the eyes of God when the couple is legally married.
3. The couple is married in the eyes of God after they have participated in a formal religious wedding ceremony

As it is an institution conducted to please a higher power, if one were to “marry”, they would have to belong to a religion. If one were to “marry” someone of the same sex, this is against religion. Hence, gay marriage is ludicrous because marriage is a holy deed and gay marriage is unsacred. This defeats the purpose of marriage.

Keep in mind, this argument is not saying, “Gay marriage is wrong because God says so,” therefore I am not using religion to back my claim. Instead, I put forth the debate that “marriage”, in and of itself, is a religious act; to violate what a religion says about its own religious act is irrational. One cannot ask to change a religion, its beliefs and scriptures.

A scientific background

Children need both parents.

Several studies conducted worldwide evidence this. Kyle Pruett, from Yale Child Study Center, reported that the following questions were asked by children with lesbian parents (Pruett, 2001):

"Mommy, what did you do with my daddy?"

"Can I write him a letter?"

"Has he ever seen me?"

"Didn't you like him? Didn't he like me?"

As it is apparent, biologically and genetically, children are intended to have one father and one mother.

“Daddy’s girl” is a saying that originated from light hearted familial conversations.

However, there has been a considerable amount of study to back this up.

Statically, daughters without a father “were much more likely to experience early puberty and a teen pregnancy” (Ellis n.d.). Additionally, a strong marriage between her parents give her an example of what to look for in future relationships, and play a role in the development of her sexuality – ie how she responds to boys’ “sexual entreaties” (Popenoe 1999).

In the situation where two homosexual men raise a child, the child is then denied a mother. Mothers are crucial in raising both girls and boys as they excel in “providing children with emotional security and in reading the physical and emotional cues of infants” (MacCoby 1998). Similarly, they obviously provide support for daughters through adolescence and puberty (Rhoads 2004).

Furthermore, researches have proved that “children of divorce often report similar feelings about their non-custodial parent” (Marquardt n.d.). What this implies is that being raised by gay parents leaves children feeling as dejected as being raised by a single parents following a divorce.

Citations in order of appearance

Amsel, Nachum. Homosexuality in Orthodox Judaism.

"How Marriage Has Changed over Centuries." The Week. June 1, 2012. Accessed June 18, 2015.

Pruett, Kyle. Fatherneed. Broadway Books, 2001. 204.

Ellis, Bruce J., et al., "Does Father Absence Place Daughters at Special Risk for Early Sexual Activity and Teenage Pregnancy?" Child Development, 74:801-821.

Popenoe, David. Life Without Father. Harvard University Press, 1999.

MacCoby, Eleanor. The Two Sexes: Growing Up Apart, Coming Together. Boston: Harvard, 1998.

Rhoads, Steven. Taking Sex Differences Seriously. Encounter Books, 2004.

Marquardt. The Moral and Spiritual Lives of Children of Divorce. Forthcoming.

Religion and Homosexuality
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://carm.org...
http://islam.stackexchange.com...
http://www.buddhanet.net...

Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 1 year ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
==================================================================
>Reported vote: saboosa // Mod action: Removed<

6 points to Pro (Arguments, Conduct, S&G). Reasons for voting decision: Both had good grammar etc. but I don't feel that the CON side should ever receive points on this topic.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) Votes based on personal bias.
===========================================================================
Posted by Fluffia 1 year ago
Fluffia
@saboosa
Thanks for the vote. I thought I had made it clear that I do not necessarily believe in my argument myself. Friendly reminder that debating is not always about what you believe in, but what you can argue convincingly. Next time, make sure you revise your voting standards: don't vote on what you believe in or what is "right" but rather which argument is better sourced and put together. Clearly, this is not the opinion section.
http://www.debate.org...
I accepted this debate as a challenge, not as a stand.
Posted by Fluffia 1 year ago
Fluffia
@dsjpk5
Thanks for the vote.

I'd like to point out that you may have misjudged. Pro broke their own rule and tackled religion in his/her argument

Opponents argue that homosexuality is against the teachings of a God, however in the Bible we do not learn homosexuality is wrong, we learn that intercourse outside of marriage is wrong, whether it be with a male or female.

I ignored this violation and merely rebutted it, because an argument that does not tackle all standpoints is senseless.

Secondly, I'd like to reiterate the following:

Keep in mind, this argument is not saying, "Gay marriage is wrong because God says so," therefore I am not using religion to back my claim. Instead, I put forth the debate that "marriage", in and of itself, is a religious act; to violate what a religion says about its own religious act is irrational. One cannot ask to change a religion, its beliefs and scriptures.

Have a nice day.
Posted by Whaddupnoob 1 year ago
Whaddupnoob
Thanks Fluffia for accepting debate.
Posted by michigainman56 1 year ago
michigainman56
Hmmmmmmmm
Posted by Zarroette 1 year ago
Zarroette
Mmm it's tempting to accept this...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
WhaddupnoobFluffiaTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con broke the rules by making a religious argument in the last round. I would deduct for conduct, but the moderator would probably remove my vote, so I vote for a tie! Long live ddo!