The Instigator
Vinyl_Scratch
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Wilford_Hester
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should gay marriage stay?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 2/9/2018 Category: People
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 251 times Debate No: 107756
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
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Vinyl_Scratch

Pro

There should be gay marriage, I mean honestly (for those of you who have married) who voted on your marriage? Marriage should be for any gender. Love is Love. Sure you can't produce offspring but there is overpopulation of humans everywhere on earth, so frankly we don't need more humans. Being gay is ok, you shouldn't decide which gender they should marry. How would you like it if someone voted on you're marriage? That is all I have to say.
-Vinyl_Scratch
Wilford_Hester

Con

Starting off, I would like to come clear and say, I am a Christian, and so will be using Christ/God a lot in my arguments. I do not believe that homosexuals should be allowed to act on their carnal feelings.
Although I do believe in freedom, there are some things that are prohibited. For example, murder. We are not allowed to murder; why? Because it's bad.
Vinyl_Scratch, you claimed that marriage is for any gender, and love is love. If that is so, then:
1: Why has homosexual marriage not been legal for the last few thousand years?
2: Why is polygamy not now legal? If you love more than one person, then why can't you marry all of them?

As well as this, you claimed that the world is overpopulated. This is a popular myth. Although some countries may have an overabundance of people, others have very few people living in them. Furthermore, since I believe in God, I believe that he will not let the world become overpopulated so that we will all die of starvation. May I ask your reasons for stating the world is overpopulated?

One more thing. You mentioned that people should not decide what others do. Why, then, may I inquire, do we have laws that apply to more than one person? These laws were decided by the government, not by the people. Do they apply to everyone, or just to the people who made them?
Debate Round No. 1
Vinyl_Scratch

Pro

Ok, you have a pretty darn good argument, and I'm fine if you are Christian, I know lots about Christian facts.

Gay marriage wasn't legal for the last thousand of years, because humans thought it was wrong, and it shouldn't be a right, now they realize it is fine and it should be a right. Polygamy isn't legal because that would result in overpopulation if they had babies, and you might be think "then you could get a divorce so you can marry to get more and more and more babies." Well that would take days perhaps months for the divorce papers to get all worked out, and you would have to go to court to see why you want to divorce.

Some of laws were decided by the people, every law can come from any person even us. You can have you're elected official make it into a bill, which will then be introduced. The bill will then go to committee, where some members of the House and some members of the Senate will have the debate, and if more say "yes" then it goes to the president. If the Congress is in session and then waits for 10 days with no answer from the President, then it become a law, or if the President signs the bill then it becomes a law.

Resources:
https://www.usa.gov...
http://www.scholastic.com...
Wilford_Hester

Con

You make some good points about the lawmaking process.

I'd like to make a religious point here, which may be slightly complicated.
God has said that homosexuality is incorrect. He has ordained marriage between and man and a woman. Although some may say that what God has said does not apply to them, let me say that it does, for the following reason:

God is the basis of our country (the USA).

God is in all aspects of the country. Each day before they open their session, the House of Representatives and the Senate open their sessions with a prayer to God to be with them. The Pledge of Allegiance states that we are under God. Our national anthem says In God is our Trust. On our currency is stated: In God We Trust. Our country is based off of God. Therefore, we should listen to what God says. And God has said marriage is between a man and a woman.

Is it possible for every person who has lived before our day to have been wrong in their opinion of gay marriage? That's trillions of people. Every leader we've ever had has been wrong when he says gay marriage is bad? All of the Founding Fathers, who were against gay marriage, were wrong?
Debate Round No. 2
Vinyl_Scratch

Pro

Thanks for saying I had a good point on the process of lawmaking. You have a great point on what you said...

The bible doesn't actually say it is bad to be homosexual, it disproves of homosexual acts. Here is my proof:
The bible says how Christians are supposed to "respect everyone." The bible also says "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." but the bible says nothing how it is bad to be gay. It says nothing that there should be no gay marriage. The bible says, "that homosexuality is forbidden by God" but during the time that the bible was made, they didn't quite understand homosexuality. Also if the House and the Senate do the pledge, they would've immediately postpone the gay marriage bill. (assuming that most of the House and Senate are Christian, Mormon etc.) Therefore that means that gay marriage should not be forbidden, by God, or anyone.
That is all I have to say for now. Cheers.


Resources:
https://www.jw.org...
http://www.livingout.org...
https://www.hrc.org...
Wilford_Hester

Con

You have a good point about how the House and the Senate would not have supported gay marriage if they are Christian (Mormons are also Christians, by the way). However, this was not a bill. This was a Supreme Court case, Obergefell v Hodges. In the case, which ended as a 5/4 decision, five people decided gay marriage should be legal in the United States. In making that decision, they overturned 35 state laws against gay marriage. That's 70% of the U.S. against gay marriage! In addition, the Constitution does not mention marriage, and so the Supreme Court should not actually have had the power to make that decision, as their job is to interpret the constitution. But, that's a matter for a different debate.
I would just like to say, the bible saying that "both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death." sounds pretty bad to me. I mean, if it requires the death penalty, then isn't it a pretty bad sin?
As well as that, you kind of implied that God has His limits. I disagree. God is omnipotent and omniscient. It does require a degree of faith to believe that God will only use his power to do good, but if He is a perfect being, than we can trust that he knows what he is doing. Therefore, if He declares being homosexual "forbidden" then it should be forbidden, and not determined by man (as I stated previously, what God says does apply to everyone in the US because our nation is founded on God).
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as LDS or Mormon) has stated that they are openly against homosexuality, believing it is forbidden of God (as you illustrated). Therefore, it being legal does violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution, which is freedom of religion. It lifts up homosexuality, and puts down those who don't support it. This issue should be determined by the people, as the states, and not by the government.
I personally believe that homosexuality is rather like the natural lustful desires of a normal human person. It's attractive to gays in the same way that pornography is attractive to anyone. BUT it is not good. The desire to be gay is a carnal tendency that you should put down, just like the desire to rape, murder, or steal. We did not come to earth to do whatever we wanted. We came here to grow spiritually, physically, and emotionally. To grow, we must overcome corrupt natural tendencies and become better. I believe that gay can be one of those natural tendencies that we must overcome.
For as long as the earth has existed, homosexuality has been considered one of the vilest of sins. It is not our place to change what God has said. We are imperfect beings. As well as this, if homosexuality is allowed, what will happen to the family? It will disintegrate, disappear, in short, be destroyed. This will be disastrous to the world.

For all of the reasons that I have stated, I believe that homosexuality is wrong. It always has been, still is, and always will be. It should not be legal. Gays or lesbians should not be abused or put down, but helped to overcome their carnal tendencies.
I personally have a strong testimony that God lives and watches over us, especially the nation of the United States. I believe "The United States has a manifest destiny to become a blessing and an example to the entire human race." (The 28 Principles of Freedom, by W Cleon Skousen). In order to fulfill this destiny, we must remain righteous. Legalizing homosexuality does not fall under the category of remaining righteous.

Thank you for debating this topic with me. You had some great arguments!

-The Principles of Freedom, by W Cleon Skousen (Print)
-Obergefell v Hodges, ballotpedia.org, Obergefell v Hodges, Wikipedia
-lds.org, Mormon and Gays, https://mormonandgay.lds.org...
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Wilford_Hester 1 week ago
Wilford_Hester
Obviously, many people have been misunderstanding my arguments. My whole point was that the government should get out of marriage! That was why I brought up the Obergefell v Hodges case: to show that the government was interfering. I completely concur that the government should get out of marriage.
Posted by whiteflame 1 week ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: passwordstipulationssuck// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Pro. Reasons for voting decision: Although I am a christian as well, I was not swayed to the opinion that the government should have the power to mandate what consenting adults do in their homes. The government should get out of the business of marriage entirely.

[*Reason for removal*] The vote is insufficiently explained. The voter appears to justify his decision based solely on his own views on the subject. The voter is required to assess specific arguments presented by both sides, and come to a decision based on their merit. Solely basing that decision in personal bias towards or against a given argument is not sufficient.
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Posted by buildingapologetics 1 week ago
buildingapologetics
@madiw512 I thank and respect your concern, and, while I am not a scholar, I have done quite a bit of research into Mormonism. I have read their own sources as well as books on the subject. In fact, I have written hundreds of pages of information about Mormonism just so that I could personally understand it. I have been in quite a few Bible studies and conversations with several Mormon missionaries. Therefore, what I say is not out of a lack of understanding of Mormon beliefs. I have a problem with Mormon theology specifically because I have spent many months in the study of it.

That being said, I do not know the specific beliefs of Wilford_Hester, so I cannot comment on his beliefs. I can, on the other hand, say that, if he holds to the tenants of the LDS church, he is not a Christian. The LDS church presents a different Jesus, and the counterfeit cannot save. I do not make this claim lightly or happily, but I can back it up.
Posted by madiw512 1 week ago
madiw512
@buildingapologetics I get that you mean no disrespect, but telling someone that what they believe in is not true is definitely not the way to get your point across. Before telling someone that what they live by is incorrect learn more about it yourself. Thanks for reading, I hope you can take my point of view into consideration.
Posted by buildingapologetics 1 week ago
buildingapologetics
@Wilford_Hester I say none of this out of disrespect or anger, but I know it is something that I must say.

If you believe in the tenants of the LDS faith, you are not a Christian. You do not believe in the true Jesus, and your church does not teach the true gospel. The Bible is completely opposed to every major doctrine of the the LDS church. I am most saddened by the LDS view of the nature of God.
Posted by John_C_1812 1 week ago
John_C_1812
Sadly that is not how things work. Gay and lesbian are also accusation which have been set without represented in the argument. Marriage is a religious likelihood that falls under legal precedent by Constitutional argument, this due to the fact a man and woman produce a public citizen in the form of baby, and the baby is a member of the state or country to which they stay. This give that governing nation legal powers, a right to ask for people to bear witness to what is otherwise strictly a private act.

This one purpose only provide legal cause for a man and woman. It does not provide the same legal cause for public accounts that can remain private with no outcome of child by consummation possible.
There is no United State to provide immunity to counsel or public to all the laws which are being dictated broken by governing law in this way. The common defense established to United States Constitution in a single United State is Binivir and Unosmulier as these titles remove any plagiarized harassment placed on the gender public of by insistence of a consummation in a union that does not require one.
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