The Instigator
johnlovesdubstep
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
KnowItAll
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should immigrant students be granted Deferred Action and Financial Aid?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/18/2013 Category: Education
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,952 times Debate No: 29327
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

johnlovesdubstep

Pro

To start off i believe any type of students, no matter where they are from, should receive Financial Aid. It helps pay for an education that other students who receive do not deserve and/or take advantage of. Deferred Action should also be granted because it helps certain qualified students acquire work permits, social security numbers, etc. Since the immigrant students don't receive the equal amount of help citizens get to pay for college a job can help them afford it. At the end the U.S benefits from this students when they build businesses and hire others. What do you think?
KnowItAll

Con

I thank my opponent for creating this interesting debate. I will being my rebuttal by stating that attending a college or university is not a right but rather a privilege.

It helps pay for an education that other students who receive do not deserve and/or take advantage of. A legal citizen of the United States who receives a higher education does not deserve it but an illegal immigrant does? Most of the legal citizens of this country do indeed attend college. "Among illegal immigrants who are high school graduates between the ages of 18 to 24, 49 percent are in or have attended some college, compared with 76 percent of legal immigrants and 71 percent of U.S.-born residents, according to a Pew Hispanic Center study of 2008 census data. [1] Regardless, how does an illegal immigrant obtain needs based financial aid without a social security number and tax returns in which to qualify? Why should funds made available through the government be used to assist illegal immigrants with funds to attend college when these funds can be used to assist the 76% of legal citizens who attend college?

"Deferred Action should also be granted because it helps certain qualified students acquire work permits, social security numbers, etc." Deferred Action would have been a great debate topic in itself. Regardless, although Deferred Action will indeed assist certain illegal immigrants with work permits and possible social security numbers it does not change the fact the illegal immigrants will take needs based financial aid away from legal citizens of this country.

Since the immigrant students don't receive the equal amount of help citizens get to pay for college a job can help them afford it. At the end the U.S benefits from this students when they build businesses and hire others. What do you think? Illegal immigrants don't receive the equal amount nor should they as they are in this country illegally. How many of these illegal immigrants will actually start a business remains to be seen. What do I think? I think that those who enter the United States legally should be entitled to the same benefits that citizens of this country are provided with.

[1]http://www.foxnews.com...
Debate Round No. 1
johnlovesdubstep

Pro

No problem its my first time:) Let the best man win! Let it be known that i am not supporting illegai immigration but still believe in "equal rights" for everyone.
"Among illegal immigrants who are high school graduates between the ages of 18 to 24, 49 percent are in or have attended some college, compared with 76 percent of legal immigrants and 71 percent of U.S.-born residents.
This quote really caught my attention because in a way this helps my idea. You said 71 percent of U.S residents and 76 pecent of legal immigrants attend college. what about the other 24 percent and 29 percent who do not? Maybe the reason less immigrants attend college is because they could not afford it and not because they decide not to. An immigrant students pays 50 dollars for an application, 211 per unit plus 46 per unit. This is 257 PER UNIT in a Community College not including books, materials etc. A full time student can take 18 units per semester. Want to multiply it? That is just wrong! lets not even go to UC's or CSU's.

"Regardless, how does an illegal immigrant obtain needs based financial aid without a social security number and tax returns in which to qualify?" Same way they qualify for deferred action. By meeting requirements!

Why should funds made available through the government be used to assist illegal immigrants with funds to attend college when these funds can be used to assist the 76% of legal citizens who attend college? Maybe because this illegal-immigrant students earn it and deserve it. You're telling me the only reason they shouldnt is because they werent born in the U.S even though some of them didnt even make their own choice because they were very young?

Regardless, although Deferred Action will indeed assist certain illegal immigrants with work permits and possible social security numbers it does not change the fact the illegal immigrants will take needs based financial aid away from legal citizens of this country. Let it be known applicaton for deferred action is 465 dollars and about 200,000 people are applying. also, only about 30 percent will qualify and the rest dont get their money back.

How many of these illegal immigrants will actually start a business remains to be seen. Immigrants created 28% of all new firms last year. They were also twice as likely to start a new business when compared to those born in the United States.
http://money.cnn.com...


I think that those who enter the United States legally should be entitled to the same benefits that citizens of this country are provided with. It is not as easy as it seems. Most of the time, your parents need to be born in the U.S in order to become a legal citizen.

Good Luck:)
KnowItAll

Con

This quote really caught my attention because in a way this helps my idea. You said 71 percent of U.S residents and 76 pecent of legal immigrants attend college. what about the other 24 percent and 29 percent who do not? Maybe the reason less immigrants attend college is because they could not afford it and not because they decide not to. An immigrant students pays 50 dollars for an application, 211 per unit plus 46 per unit. This is 257 PER UNIT in a Community College not including books, materials etc. A full time student can take 18 units per semester. Want to multiply it? That is just wrong! lets not even go to UC's or CSU's. Not everyone who is a resident of this country or in this country as a legal immigrant chooses to attend college. You seem to be addressing illegal immigrants in which case your argument goes back to whether or not illegal immigrants should receive financial aid. The quote I used in no way helps my opponents idea.

Same way they qualify for deferred action. By meeting requirements! My opponent has seemed to miss my point so I will clarify my statement. In order to qualify for needs based financial aid, tax returns are needed. In order to file tax returns one needs a social security number. In order to obtain a social security number legally you must be born in this country or file an application with your home country along with your Immigrant Visa application. [1]

Maybe because this illegal-immigrant students earn it and deserve it. You're telling me the only reason they shouldnt is because they werent born in the U.S even though some of them didnt even make their own choice because they were very young? I fail to see how an illegal immigrant earns and deserves funds reserved for citizens and legal immigrants. Whether or not the student made his or her choice to come here on their own is moot. The fact remains that the student is not here legally, which is the entire reason for Deferred Action.

Let it be known applicaton for deferred action is 465 dollars and about 200,000 people are applying. also, only about 30 percent will qualify and the rest dont get their money back. I fail to see how this is relevant to this debate.

Immigrants created 28% of all new firms last year. They were also twice as likely to start a new business when compared to those born in the United States. Yes, legal immigrants did. Illegal immigrants cannot legally start a business in the United States. Regardless, your statistic also shows that 72% of those businesses were created by U.S. citizens.

It is not as easy as it seems. Most of the time, your parents need to be born in the U.S in order to become a legal citizen. Seems pretty easy to me. Look no further than Section 1 of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It seems to be that my opponent is having difficulty in differentiating between illegal immigrants and legal immigrants.

[1]http://www.ssa.gov...
Debate Round No. 2
johnlovesdubstep

Pro

My opponent has seemed to miss my point so I will clarify my statement. In order to qualify for needs based financial aid, tax returns are needed. In order to file tax returns one needs a social security number. In order to obtain a social security number legally you must be born in this country or file an application with your home country along with your Immigrant Visa application. [1]
you seem to be mistaken. if someone qualifies for deferred action he/she gets a work permit. with the work permit the individual can acquire an ssn, identification and drivers license in some cases.



I fail to see how an illegal immigrant earns and deserves funds reserved for citizens and legal immigrants. Whether or not the student made his or her choice to come here on their own is moot. The fact remains that the student is not here legally, which is the entire reason for Deferred Action.
because some put hard work into their education. also what makes them any different than legal citizens?? only that they werent born here or do you have anything else?


Yes, legal immigrants did. Illegal immigrants cannot legally start a business in the United States. Regardless, your statistic also shows that 72% of those businesses were created by U.S. citizens.
the point is that immigrant entrepreneurs are increasing not that there is more legal citizens creating businesses. and if the illegal immigrants are given this rights through deferred action they can start a business.


nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
what do you consider illegal immigrants if they are not a person? illegal immigrants are deprived of life liberty and property all the time in the U.S. If the U.S followed the consitution life for illegal immigrants would be much easier!

It seems to be that my opponent is having difficulty in differentiating between illegal immigrants and legal immigrants.
i understand the difference.
KnowItAll

Con

you seem to be mistaken. if someone qualifies for deferred action he/she gets a work permit. with the work permit the individual can acquire an ssn, identification and drivers license in some cases. You are correct if the person does indeed qualify. However, the United States is not the only country in the world where a person can attend college and not everyone who applies will be approved. College is a privilege, not a right.

because some put hard work into their education. also what makes them any different than legal citizens?? only that they werent born here or do you have anything else? The difference is that they are here illegally. Of course one does not have to be born in the United States to become a legal citizen. One can become a naturalized citizen of this country. "One who, being born an alien, has lawfully become a citizen of the United States Under the constitution and laws." [1]

the point is that immigrant entrepreneurs are increasing not that there is more legal citizens creating businesses. and if the illegal immigrants are given this rights through deferred action they can start a business. An illegal immigrant cannot start a business in this country. As your source stated, 28% of these legal immigrants are responsible for creating new businesses. This does not change the fact that 72% of these businesses were started by citizens of this country. Deferred Action simply defers the action of deportation. It is not a pathway to citizenship. [2] It also does not provide the opportunity for them to open businesses.

"nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." - "what do you consider illegal immigrants if they are not a person? illegal immigrants are deprived of life liberty and property all the time in the U.S. If the U.S followed the constitution life for illegal immigrants would be much easier!" The U.S. does indeed follow the constitution. Illegal immigrants are granted equal protection of the law and cannot be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of the law. This is why illegal immigrants must go through a removal proceeding prior to being deported. [3] As such attending college and receiving financial aid is not a right, it is a privilege. Of course, allowing illegal immigrants the ability to obtain financial aid would make it easier for them to attend college it is my position that the privilege should only extend to citizens and legal immigrants of this country.

i understand the difference. If my opponent understands the difference he would not be arguing that illegal immigrants should be afforded the same privileges reserved for citizens and legal immigrants. Legal immigrants who go through the necessary steps in which to become a naturalized citizen of this country. [4]

There is a right way to enter this country and become a citizen if one chooses. It is my position that Deferred Action rewards those here illegally and that Financial Aid should be reserved for citizens and legal immigrants of this country.

[1]http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...
[2]http://www.dhs.gov...
[3]http://republicanherald.com...
[4]http://www.uscitizenship.info...
Debate Round No. 3
johnlovesdubstep

Pro

You are correct if the person does indeed qualify. However, the United States is not the only country in the world where a person can attend college and not everyone who applies will be approved. College is a privilege, not a right.
i dont think its either. i think college is a choice. if it was a privilage everyone would take advantage. but most will. specially if theyre good students.


The difference is that they are here illegally. Of course one does not have to be born in the United States to become a legal citizen. One can become a naturalized citizen of this country. "One who, being born an alien, has lawfully become a citizen of the United States Under the constitution and laws."
how about students who qualify for deferred action ? an receive their ssn and ids?


An illegal immigrant cannot start a business in this country. As your source stated, 28% of these legal immigrants are responsible for creating new businesses. This does not change the fact that 72% of these businesses were started by citizens of this country. Deferred Action simply defers the action of deportation. It is not a pathway to citizenship. [2] It also does not provide the opportunity for them to open businesses.

it seems lie youre making this a competition between citizens and illegal immigrants. the point i was trying to send across is that many immigrants are starting almost 30 percent of businesses. it doesnt only defer the action of deportation. it also gives you a work permit, drivers license,ids and drivers licenses. and that is what you need to open a business .

The U.S. does indeed follow the constitution. Illegal immigrants are granted equal protection of the law and cannot be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of the law. This is why illegal immigrants must go through a removal proceeding prior to being deported. [3] As such attending college and receiving financial aid is not a right, it is a privilege. Of course, allowing illegal immigrants the ability to obtain financial aid would make it easier for them to attend college it is my position that the privilege should only extend to citizens and legal immigrants of this country.

so being deported is not being deprived of liberty? specially when it is for no reason?

If my opponent understands the difference he would not be arguing that illegal immigrants should be afforded the same privileges reserved for citizens and legal immigrants. Legal immigrants who go through the necessary steps in which to become a naturalized citizen of this country. [4]

There is a right way to enter this country and become a citizen if one chooses. It is my position that Deferred Action rewards those here illegally and that Financial Aid should be reserved for citizens and legal immigrants of this country.

thats is not what it means. thats what you believe it does. theyre opinions not facts

KnowItAll

Con

KnowItAll forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Deadlykris 4 years ago
Deadlykris
"Illegal alien" is the proper legal term.
Posted by johnlovesdubstep 4 years ago
johnlovesdubstep
in this case you would use the term illegal and legal immigrants. not illegal aliens
Posted by Deadlykris 4 years ago
Deadlykris
They are not the same thing. Real immigrants should not be lumped in with criminals.
Posted by johnlovesdubstep 4 years ago
johnlovesdubstep
They are actually the same thing. One of the terms is more harsh but we can refer to both in this case
Posted by Deadlykris 4 years ago
Deadlykris
Are you referring to actual immigrants, or illegal aliens? People who came here within the boundaries of American immigration laws, or those who ignore those laws and come here illegally?
No votes have been placed for this debate.