The Instigator
Finalfan
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Duncan
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should marijuana be legalized

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/1/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 548 times Debate No: 36223
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

Finalfan

Pro

Pick your battles" "To each their own" "lesser of two evils"
"Nothing is ever good nor bad but thinking makes it so"-William Shakespeare

Just a few quotes to illustrate the theme of this debate. I want to begin with a list of activities I believe are more harmful than smoking marijuana (I will leave drugs and alcohol off this list and will set aside obvious dangers like smoking cigarettes and drinking energy drinks)
1.Driving a motor vehicle (including motorcycles and ATV's)
2.Swimming ( including all water related activities)
3. Sports (excluding non violent sports))
4. Extreme activities (Rock climbing, Hiking, Camping, Hang gliding, bungee jumping)
5. Leaving your front door (You get the picture)

These are just a few vague examples that prove that people have the right to choose dangerous activities. If someone tried to make football illegal, there would be a lot of people wondering what gives you the right to take it away even though it is dangerous! Should we stop people from camping even though we see bear attacks in the paper? So I think we can agree that the "dangers of marijuana" is not the real reason why it is illegal!

I recently saw a video on youtube that promoted marijuana as an alternative for alcohol.. I got excited because it made a lot of sense. I am IMHO a very observant person. In my 31 years I have seen a lot of scary people.. that were drunk. I read about drunk driving accidents all the time and have always felt that alcohol was a terrible menace to society but tramples our lives with impunity due to its impenetrable nature (we all know prohibition was a joke). The thought that you could have an alternative to escape the horrifying consequences of alcohol being the only outlet for people to unwind should get everyones attention. Lets face it the prohibition of marijuana is going worse that the prohibition of alcohol did, especially because it has be going on for so long. So much money has been siphoned into the war on marijuana and our taxes pay for the legal process including incarceration for some. But people are still using it every day and anyone can get it if they want. So I don't really see wasting money that we technically don't have to stop something that can be used to generate a massive income.. sounds fishy to me..

The argument that we don't want our children to smoke it and we don't want students to fail is negated by the fact that it would be illegal for them to have it anyways so they found it illegally which is no different than what happens with prohibition!

I will need more arguments from you to continue this debate proper. I really do want to know the real answer to why it is illegal. I know why it became illegal in the 70's but I do not know why it is still today. I leave this with a very reasonable conspiracy.. Some one is making money here.. plain and simple, there is a hidden agenda that involves power and wealth.. but I have no sources to back that up :)
Duncan

Con

Ah, Finalfan! So glad to see you return! Now, I demand no sources for your belief in the hidden agenda, as I do suspect the idea true. However, there is another reason why marijuana should not be legalized. The problem is enforcement. I don't know what your opinion on gun legislation is, but if America were to ban guns, the problem would be enforcement. How would you confiscate the guns? Et cetera. If marijuana was to be legalized, it would have to be regulated. How would you prevent people from home growing? How would weed usage on weekends affect work produce? The argument that no harmful effects are present would lead to overuse, and while the user could always stop if they wanted to, the argument that it is not harmful means they would have no incentive to stop.

I admit that weed is less addictive and harmful than alcohol or other drugs, but your arguments seem more like reasoning to ban or limit alcohol and cigarettes. The reason we cannot remove what is already rooted, such as guns and alcohol, because the population would resist it, violently. Perhaps if some plan or model for its introduction was devised, it may become a reality, but without proper limits, or even with them, the temporary intelligence detriments would inhibit schoolwork and productivity in workplaces. For this reason, I cannot support marijuana, even with the possibilities of hidden agendas.

Awaiting your response,

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 1
Finalfan

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate once again! :) I forgot when I made my opening statement that you were not arguing the dangers of marijuana.. You did tell me you were taking a different angle and I thought about your arguments carefully...
As we speak, law abiding, tax paying Americans are considered criminals because of the rigid laws in place.. These laws are essentially the attempt at controlling the most versatile plant on the planet. So much dogma and stereotyping comes from such an innocuous weed, it almost can be considered a witch hunt.
I'm not looking for compassion for stoners here, I am merely trying to correct an error in the system. One that has not been justified by any source that enforces it. The police, judges and lawmakers have not made it clear why marijuana is illegal, they only degrade it with stereotyping and jokes about the munchies! As I said before, I was hoping you had done the research into the root of this issue, because I truly want to know. Without an answer I am left thinking that we live in a Dictatorship masquerading as a Democracy!
I am an idealist, but I am aware that idealism has no place in reality. When we compare marijuana to alcohol it is a no brainer, marijuana is the safe alternative. That is why I promote it as a replacement for drinking and smoking cigarettes. Instead of being a nanny the government should focus on educating people about the harmful consequences of substance abuse and addiction, not charge them $1000 fine and deny them student loans!
I have a problem with authority.. whew there I said it. I believe in the power of discipline and common decency, therefore I do not need someone telling me how to live my life. I recycle, mow my grandmas lawn, and have empathy for all of my brothers and sisters (aka people)... mostly! So if I decide to smoke a bowl and watch the Avengers, I do it in my own world regardless of the hang ups and control issues of other people. Which leads to another theory of mine.. People are afraid of what they do not understand, people want to destroy what they fear.. in this case marijuana is the bogeyman. You might remember, when I broke down in the last debate it was because of my realization that everyone has something that they should not be doing, but they think they have the right to stop people from "making a mistake". (Epitome of Hypocrisy) Gay marriage is a perfect example although I'm done trying to reason with stubborn conservative Christians!

My response to your enforcement argument is a simple solution: Use the tax revenue that is otherwise used for "the war on marijuana" and use it to fund a government sanctioned regulatory system and make them do their jobs instead of ignoring the massive elephant in the room! It is a copout to think that we could not have an adaptive system that keeps the money out of the black market and back into our more important resources like health care and education! From my (idealistic) perspective I should be allowed to grow and cultivate the plant as I see fit, but I realize that is a slippery slope in reality, so I am willing to compromise.. My question is, do you think the "law" will have the same ability to adapt to reason? Or is something else afoot? Leading back to conspiracy bla blah!

The argument you made about people lifting the dogma off of weed causing more abuse and less restraint to abuse it! I will admit, addiction and breakfast bong tokes is a sad ordeal (not unlike people drinking at 2 pm) The sad fact is that people are not prone to discipline and moderation. I would be more than excited to learn that every ounce of alcohol had mysteriously vanished leaving the world into a mass detox, killing many! jk In truth, this needs to be approached with finesse. Education and positive re-enforcement is usually a good start followed by addiction counselors and maybe a better world to live in so they are not inclined to fall back into the same patterns. (I bring that up as an example of empathy for addiction as opposed to disgust and ridicule!)

"Perhaps if some plan or model for its introduction was devised, it may become a reality, but without proper limits, or even with them, the temporary intelligence detriments would inhibit schoolwork and productivity in workplaces. For this reason, I cannot support marijuana, even with the possibilities of hidden agendas."-your quote

Clearly a plan should be designed in an open discussion. I'm sure there is at least one person who can figure it out! That is far more productive than the ol "blow it out an air lock because its too scary"! These limits you are referencing are personal to each individual and should not be manipulated without proper analysis! Meaning self discipline is the solution not government restrictions (that are a violation of our human rights. ) Common decency is buried under bureaucratic red tape. I think it is an insult to rationally "evolved" people who see past the bulloney! Again as far as schoolwork and productivity goes, that has been a problem long before marijuana came into the picture.. some kids are idiots who think they are cool "acting like an adult" When really they should be thinking "maybe there is a reason I'm not allowed to have this".. solution: education! Not "Because I said so" Btw a lot of jobs can be done with efficiency and grace while high! Lazy people have themselves to blame not the plant!

Anyway give me a little more to work with here. I went off on rants because I didn't have much for a reply to your arguments. I invite you to consider my positive approach to controlling marijuana instead of "Just say NO!!"
Duncan

Con

Make no mistake Finalfan, I have nothing against marijuana users, I even have a few friends who use it and most of them are still smart company. I also accept that there are corporations and politicians who would oppose it and there is a political agenda at work here. However, my stance on this topic is no. Not yet. Most countries are not ready for it. They are not responsible enough to regulate it properly. Drink and cigarettes are legal and harmful, but they do have laws and taxes. Until the world is mature enough to control its usage, marijuana would be too risky a hazard in society, and until that control is installed or at least planned, the answer will remain no.

It is good to see you returning to debating since there are so few good debates available as of recent (I have sworn off Shakuntala's debates) and it is always fun to debate with the more articulate of the site. Make no mistake of my character, i have nothing against marijuana and I do not irrationally hate it. All I think is that the change must be gradual and slow.

Until then, I await your next response,

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 2
Finalfan

Pro

Really? Nothing I have said was convincing enough? hmm... Did you read the part where it is an insult to me personally that I am considered too immature to make decisions that only affect my life! The only difference between prohibition and legalization is where the money is going. The black market flourishes while our economy suffers. The government taking advantage of this versatile cash crop seems like a sound investment to me. I do agree that most people are... well.. unevolved which is the least insulting way I can put that! People are downright scary in their "beast" form. But that hardly justifies punishing mature respectful people for the flaws of others! This is no different than people not letting homosexuals get married.. They think they are doing the right thing but really they are oppressing and degrading the people they want to control! Its all about perspective, and I'm sure your familiar with "who do you think you are to tell me what to do if I am not infringing on the rights of others?" Also when you point a finger at someone you are pointing three back at yourself! These are cliche but important for gaining perspective! Another similarity to banning gay marriage is the notion that you have bullies who are attacking people for being different while the victim struggles to keep his/her freedoms from being trampled by ignorant control freaks! So you see why it doesn't cut it in this debate just saying No. In fact you end up resembling every other fascist dictator in history! I will require more effort still to continue this debate.. You must either give me a real reason why I should conceit to your argument or bow out because I have made it clear that I have never seen or heard anyone say anything other than it is dangerous (which we both know is not the case) or that it makes people lazy (which is conjecture) So your next round better have some potent mark twain genius or I will consider this debate a shutout!
Duncan

Con

Whoa, whoa whoa, calm down Finalfan. What's with all the shock and threats here? I've done the same research as you, I know what you're talking about. But listen to me; the world isn't ready yet. Just... calm down, come out of the rant, and start talking about what you could do to make the world ready; what regulations if any, how marijuana wouldn't be used irresponsibly.
Don't paint me as the enemy. Don't start bringing up random and unrelated topics. You still have time to win the debate, just calm down and bring your big logic guns. Understand that alcohol and cigarettes at least have regulation and control on them. I understand that there is an agenda behind this, but that isn't the debate topic. Why not start that one when this is finished? I don't plan on doing that one since I've seen the evidence, but blind rage like this is only an argument against weed.

I'll be waiting.

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 3
Finalfan

Pro

I was serious, you can take it as a threat if you want, I am trying to get you to debate with me here. You have not addressed a single point I have made and have given me the deaf ear repeat previous argument routine that I am so very familiar from this website. When I was debating about gay marriage I got arguments like "they don't procreate and references to male genitalia. I had no argument and wanted them to drop such arbitrary facts that give no reason for banning gay marriage (I recommend you read my last gay marriage debate It was like bashing my head into a wall trying to reason with him) So when I ended that debate and started our first marijuana debate you set me off by using a disgusting observation of how alcohol has got the world under its thumb and pot smokers are the ones getting the punishment that should be reserved for alcohol users. That is why I started out my rage rant in our last debate by saying that this world is so twisted . I meant that everyone is so ignorant and brainwashed that they accept hypocrisy and contradictions as part of the normal human condition. I'm saying that I'm not hallucinating in my own fairy land fantasy (Ironically I'm the one who has done the drugs) My anger is due to the same frustration that anyone feels when they are powerless to fight injustice! I invite you to have compassion and empathy for the people you consider criminals! Why did you accept this debate if you knew I would not accept pseudo attempts at debating this topic. I was hoping you would come up with something more than how we are going to regulate it. (I promise you if you get the right people in a room they can easily figure it out. More importantly it can be an adaptive system that's fair enough to alleviate the desire to corrupt and extort the system. The problem with prohibition is it literally is a detour of American taxable income that accounts for billions in losses for our economy and billions in gains for people who are selling it. The fact is I do not want it to be legal so I can smoke it, it NEEDS to be legal because prohibition is far Far FAR worse than any fear you can dream up. Like I said the government needs to do their freaking jobs instead of being our "big brother" (1984)! They could have devised a reasonable plan for regulating and managing the manufacturing and sale of marijuana 30 years ago, but there is something else in the way (conspiracy) So I'm telling you that your arguments are a concern (one that can be easily dealt with) They don't even come close to justifying this embarrassing time of document able ignorance. 50 Years ago we will look back at this like it was just another blunder in American History (I hope) At least acknowledge that you have read my arguments by picking one of them apart and show me that I am not a prophet for a time in our future when we will drop our petty issues (greed, self absorption, obsessive control issues)Then I will have respect for my fellow man! It will show in my debates and I won't sound like I'm threatening you! To be honest I kind of am, I am using the stick hoping to get a rise out of you to find out why you are so afraid of something you clearly know nothing about. I'm not saying you should try it, I'm saying not to be so judgemental when your simple "no" can be just as offensive as anything I have said!

Moving on.. sort of.. Do not take this personally. I am merely venting to you the same frustrations I have with the inhumane structure of our world society! It is rigid and without proper scrutiny! It is trying so hard to be PC that it forgets sometimes you need to experience pain and suffering so you can know compassion. The problem is we live so comfortably without anyone poking at us to get in line so it becomes tough to master your disciplines. This is a problem regardless of the law. So in a way you are right in saying that our society is not mature, but what I'm saying is that is because we are to afraid to cut the cord and let us grow and adapt by learning from our mistakes. It is more than obvious that prohibition is one of those mistakes! I told you to find a new angle to continue this debate. I have exhausted your argument to death with only a few sentences. The rest of it is ranting about your lack of response on my arguments. I then made sure you knew I have thought about this ALOT!!! You need to step it up because I feel like I'm superman playing basketball with Justin Beiber!

Ok some of what I said was harsh but I thought it was funny enough and it did send my point home! Again trying to get you to respond.. not to my taunts, but to my arguments and insight. You told me you would try, and told me you would bend if I presented a solid case. My position is clear. Marijuana is not illegal because of any fear that you might have about what would happen if it became illegal. I thought you would find out why that is! If its not because of any of the reasons I have heard in proper debates with Chief DEA agents who only insult and degrade pot users. Not once have I heard a proper argument that doesn't crumble at first glance! Your argument about regulation and fear of abuse has been dissected, evaluated and properly disposed of.. so start diggin friend.. we have 1 round left and I'm going to need something.. Anything that can keep this debate from being me cracking your walnut with a sledgehammer!
Duncan

Con

Look, Finalfan, you want to start a one man war with two of the most powerful industries in the world? Me my %^&*ing guest. It's your funeral. You can't use alcohol and cigarettes as an argument for weed like this. I know about the injustice. I did the research too, like you asked me. But I'm not your punching bag. You want to rant about the corruption behind marijuana bans? Make that the title of the debate. I won't be your personal stress ball. Put ti in the forums. Come up with a plan of a safe way to regulate its use. To be honest, the only real reason for the ban is the lack of control over it. That's why I haven't changed my argument for it. I won't argue for any other reason because I don't believe those reasons. I don't believe marijuana causes long term harm. I know about the corruption believe me. There is a way to legalize weed without banning the other substances.You have to remove the level of fear that the government has over it. You have to show how it can be controlled like the drink and tobacco industires. How it can be limited. I won't argue a cause I don't believe in. Maybe in time, with the regulations you can provide, it can be legalized. But we aren't prepared for full, uninhibited use of marijuana yet. A drug that leaves an only temporary but powerful numbing effect can be hard to control, especially if one decides to use more weed while still under its effects. This would lead to full days of unproductivity, which could carry over to workdays. Level with me Finalfan. (Is it supposed to be Final Fantasy of something?) I hope that you and all the other users find the way of lifting the ban in a way that won't totally change society. And I will see you in the next round.

Awaiting your response,

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 4
Finalfan

Pro

O.K. so you keep going on about how you think this debate is focusing on the regulation of marijuana. Basically what I have gotten from you is that you do believe that marijuana should be legalized, you are just hung up on how to regulate it. I told you repeatedly that it is a concern but not worth keeping marijuana in prohibition! It would be very easy to figure it out, lets wait and see how Colorado and Washington handles it! You apparently do not want to debate whether or not marijuana should be legalized. You are stuck on a benign issue that is irrelevant to the purpose of this debate. I'm sorry man you wasted 4 rounds repeating the same argument that I tried my darnedest to get you to drop! I was hoping to have a real debate. On the subject I requested but I guess that you wanted to frustrate me instead. Which is weird considering you were the one who convinced me to come back to this website. I guess this sort of conflict is normal when talking about hot button issues. But I invite you to recognize that most hot button issues are a struggle for liberation. It is always an oppressive force that is clearly stronger than the minority that suffers!

A very popular issue with marijuana is concern for the children.. Am I the only person that knows that children are getting baked everyday as it is. So lets see.. Here are arguments against marijuana:

1. How to regulate it (I don't know maybe like alcohol) as I said lets wait and see how CO and WA handle it!
2. Children (Already a problem even with prohibition, we need more education not forbidden fruit)
3.It is dangerous (Yeah that's life, get use to it, breathing in some cities is dangerous)
4.Lazy and unproductive (tell that to the millions of stoners that are building your houses and making your food, you can't
be a pothead without money)
5. Driving high (If you have been a pothead for 10 years.. not an issue however if someone is driving half the speed limit
swerving around pull them over no matter what they are on)

So we can all agree then.. Marijuana should in fact be legalized. I await the day I can grow some plants in my house)

Cheers!
Duncan

Con

You fail to understand the differences between alcohol and marijuana. True, it doesn't cause physical harm like damage to liver, but it does render the user incapable of anything productive for its duration. One, two, even three drinks for most people, and they can continue work, and proper thought, but marijuana slows a person down mentally. This crucial difference means that it can a much more adverse affect if used improperly. If you plan to legalise it now, and sort out how to control it's use later, it will already be far too late. You have misinterpreted my message. In time, I would support marijuana, but not now. Not yet. And the whole prospect of you growing it in your own house is my very point. How do you stop children from growing a stash? Students in my year already roll cigarettes and smoke during breaks, but they're nothing compared to the stoners already in my year. They're nice people on the whole, but my good marijuana using friend has needed me to give him grinds on several occasions, and I fear he will join his brother who failed the end of year exams and now lives unemployed in the household. There is not enough control already. Legalising it now would open up the option for everyone, and we'd all be far too gone to even notice the agendas you've spoken of. You can give as many speeches about the injustice of society and the rigid viewpoints people have; you need to control this. You can't regulate it like alcohol. It's not something bars can serve, or shops can have, because everyone will just homegrow. Maybe garden centres will sell them. But your final remark about making your own has reminded me of how difficult it is to regulate this.

As final rebuttals to your final points;

1; Regulation; It's far too easy to grow at home, which would require household searches,something many would never agree to.

2; Children are finding it easier to get cigarettes every day. The last thing we need is another, apparently safe drug appearing that they can argue is healthy.

3; It's not so much dangerous as debilitating. A bus strike went on in Dublin City, for just mere days, and it costed the city millions in terms of lost production. The lack of commercialisation means that the government will make no money from it, and will lose so much from the slack in work. Weekend bong you called it?

4; Not so much lazy, more unproductive. If you're going to say they build my houses and make my food, then why is there a half built estate in the middle of my town? There's also been a horse meat scandal here too. This is unrelated, but so is the concept that a secret army of stoners runs the world. The numbers of stoners is still smaller than that of non weed users, but I do not accuse them of not working, I say that the overpowering effects of weed limits their produce.

You're going to need that regulation before you introduce it, but don't stop now. Make that model. Create those regulations. Put it to the governments and see if you can make it work. Until then, I'll be here,on the half reluctant opposition.

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Wocambs 3 years ago
Wocambs
I'd like to debate you on the proposal "Cannabis should be sold by government-licensed outlets to adults", Duncan, because all of my drug debates turn into chain forfeits by the opposition.
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
Yes I'm representing Final Fantasy.. I don't know a lot of FF enthusiasts so I joke about being the Final fan!
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
Don't do drugs and stay in school :)
Posted by Duncan 3 years ago
Duncan
I'm not using your rage as an argument. I just want you to keep a level head for the debate. I understand why you're angry. But I only oppose marijuana for the dramatic way it will change the world if it becomes available, since its effects are so powerful, not physically, but mentally. All you have to do is just give me not a full plan, but a vague sort of model of how it could be distributed, that kids couldn't get it and how work and school could carry on with it.
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
You told me that my blind rage is an argument against weed. I have only found insight in my arguments where I do not tolerate following blindly. the irony is that your blind obediance to a logic that has been sold to you as a reasonable argument. I have proven that many times over. So again you have scolded me for my offensiveness only to reply with something truly offensive! Finger pointing.. 3 fingers at yourself
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
After carefully reading my posts I have found my comments to be very constuctive. Almost anything I have said that can be considerd insulting or offensive is the same spirit you gave me when I was falling behind and needed a boost to keep going! So you can be sensitive (I'm not telling you what to do) I just can't debate with you if you are not even going to try!
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
You unfortunately represent a short sighted stubborn injustice that has been in need of indictment for some time. You told me during our last debate that you were not like the right wing conservatives that had fueled my tantrum. Then you made a single argument without acknowledging my whirlwind of rebuttals. You even said that you were able to change your mind if presented with a reasonable argument in which I made several. Your response was simply saying "No"! If you were insulted by my attempt at getting you motivated to actually debate because it almost seems like you are not even reading my posts!
Posted by Duncan 3 years ago
Duncan
Finalfan, you're getting very worked up for just one debate. You're accusing me of demanding control; regulation! The assurance that it can be safely made and used. I'm not a corporation Finalfan. You're throwing insults at the wrong person.
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
So the grand conclusion to why marijuana is illegal is because people are afraid of the lack of control they have over others! Therefore as a formality they decide to sweep it under the rug and let it fester. My problem is that it makes all the difference in the world not calling respectful human beings criminals and we have already caused enough damage to let this go any further. So to move on from my opponents main argument that we are not ready: Its time.. believe me.. it is never too soon to abolish an atrocity!
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