The Instigator
ericfleishman
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

Should people be able to choose which bathroom to use?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Danielle
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/15/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 441 times Debate No: 92746
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

ericfleishman

Con

I stand against people using the bathroom of their choice. I ask that this first round is dedicated to acceptance and NOT debate. The following three rounds will be used for contention and debate.
Danielle

Pro

Thanks. I accept this challenge.
Debate Round No. 1
ericfleishman

Con

To begin, we are all born with what is known as a sex. One is either born as a male, or a female, however people may choose to identify with whichever of the two genders they feel they most resemble. However, this ideology has brought up debate upon whether or not people can choose which bathroom they may use. I for one, personally believe that people should use the bathroom of the sex on their birth certificate.

With that being said, if anyone could just walk into whichever bathroom that they'd like to, then people with perversion can go into the bathroom of the opposite sex, and can for lack of better words, undergo inappropriate action. The fear is that men/women will pose as the opposite sex, and enter the bathroom regarding the opposite sex to spy on people of the opposite sex. This endanger our children in America. Our children can become victims of sexual assault, victims of sexual harassment, and even photographed and video graphed.[1] Keeping the safety in mind of our young people, and people who are left defenseless, the idea behind people choosing which bathroom that they should use, is a poor one indeed.

Citations: http://m.huffpost.com...
Danielle

Pro

Clarifications

Many thanks to my opponent for agreeing to accept an edit to this debate (in the comments section). Obviously, this debate is mostly in reference to trans people, which is what I wanted to clear up. I'd also like my opponent to become familiar with the distinctions between sex and gender:

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.


1. Context

A. The U.S. is one of the most "prudish" countries in the western world; that is we adhere to strict and rigid social norms about what is socially acceptable when it comes to sex and gender, specifically compared to our peers in Europe [1]. Many European countries are open about sex and do not stigmatize social nudity [2]. As such, they recognize that there is nothing inherently grotesque, or more importantly harmful, when it comes to mixing the sexes.

B. Being transgender is very complicated; it's not a frivolous identity. Law makers have oversimplified this discussion by suggesting it "just makes sense" to use the bathroom that matches your biological sex. This is a fallacious bare assertion. Indeed gender is very complex and there are many factors (social and physical) that determine one's valid gender identity. It is NOT dictated by biological sex [3].

2. Transgender Rights

Why is it important to let transgender people choose their bathroom?

A. Transgender people experience insufferable discrimination and psychological hardship [4]. Some people believe they suffer from a condition called body dysmorphia [5]. Why make life harder (unnecessarily) for these people who are already experiencing so much pain and suffering?

B. Transgender people often go through great pains to look like the opposite sex; many spend thousands of dollars on surgeries to dramatically transform their bodies. I would like to submit the following photos as examples of transgender people:

http://tinyurl.com...;(biologically female)
http://tinyurl.com...;(biologically female)
http://tinyurl.com...;(biologically male)
http://tinyurl.com...;(biologically male)

Transgender people would be stared at, ruthlessly mocked, confronted and violently attacked (history shows) if they used the bathroom that matches their biological sex, because most people would assume they were using the "wrong" bathroom.

Indeed, even if my opponent argues that only transgender people who have had sex change surgeries ought to be allowed to choose their bathroom, how would any bathroom goer know whether or not this person had the surgery? More about this later.

C. The primary reason it's important that trans people can select their bathroom is to protect their physical safety. Last year, a Congressional forum investigated what they called an EPIDEMIC of violence against transgender people [4]. The number of hate crimes against trans people has more than tripled in the last 2 years [5]. Much of this violence specifically stems from mistakes of gendered bathroom identity.

Chrissy Lee Polis was viciously attacked by two teenagers as she entered the women’s bathroom at McDonald’s, after her attackers recognized Chrissy is transgender [6]. More than 70% of trans people have experienced violent intimidation and/or confrontation while using the bathroom; some were even denied access [7].

"There were health consequences for respondents as well, with 54 percent reporting physical complications like dehydration, urinary tract infections, kidney infections, and other kidney problems simply because of the tactics they used to avoid going to the restroom during the day. Many health facilities also have gender-segregated restrooms, which discourages individuals from seeking treatment for these conditions. As many as 58 percent have avoided going out in public at times because of bathroom concerns" [7].

3. The Case Against Trans Rights

A. Socially conservative people feel uncomfortable by trans people, but trans people actually suffer psychological harm from rejection and condemnation of their gender identity [8] as opposed to just icky feelings which is childish.

B. The biggest reason people oppose trans bathroom rights is because people are (allegedly) worried about women's safety. However this fear is completely unwarranted based on both statistical and logical analysis.

First and foremost, let's consider whether or not gendered bathrooms would actually stop someone from committing sexual assault. Since rapists and voyeurs obviously don't care about breaking the law, it's naive to think gendered bathroom signs would be a deterrent. These people are already raping or voyeuring regardless of what the law or signs say.

Second, people claim they are worried about their daughters peeing next to pedophiles. Why aren't people worried about their sons peeing next to pedophiles? The majority of pedophiles are cis gendered males, not trans, and we could arguably and reasonably suspect or notice when a cis gendered male enters the women's room.

Most rape does not occur in public places, and occurs by someone that the victim actually knows [9].

"Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state" [10].

Furthermore, anti-trans policies do not take into account that men can also be victims of sexual assault and harassment in public bathrooms. Transgender men who have had to use female restrooms due to such anti-trans laws experience a ton of violence in women’s bathrooms, and are told they don’t belong there. Why is violence against these people (which is real rather than theorized) any less significant?

4. Pragmatic / Legal Reality

A. Let's assume that my opponent suggests only trans people who have had sex changes ought to be able to choose their preferred bathroom. One, this discriminates against people who cannot afford to have the ridiculously expensive procedures it takes to transition. Two, this is not realistically enforceable. Once again, how would anyone know whether or not someone had sexual reassignment surgery, unless they were a doctor who could recognize such surgery AND asked any suspect to get naked in a public bathroom? There is no real way to implement this policy nor any realistic expectation of who to enforce it and how.

B. Sexual organs alone often cannot distinguish gender. In fact there are lots of intersex conditions. “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male [11].

C. Even if Con suggested making someone strip naked in a public bathroom to check their genitals, this is not Constitutional. U.S. citizens are protected from unreasonable searches by the 4th amendment [12].

D. The Supreme Court has set a precedent when it dealt with 1996’s Romer v. Evans. The Court explained that the Equal Protection Clause forbids a state from “singling out a certain class of citizens” and “imposing a special disability upon those persons alone.” Such a law is “inexplicable by anything but animus toward the class it affects,” and under the 14th Amendment, “animosity” toward a “politically unpopular group” is not a “proper legislative end.” Anti-trans bathroom policy “identifies persons by a single trait”—gay or trans identity—“and then denies them protection across the board.” The Equal Protection Clause cannot tolerate this “bare desire to harm” minorities [13].

SOURCES: http://tinyurl.com...
Debate Round No. 2
ericfleishman

Con

To begin with, the true issue still lies within people posing as the opposite sex in order to spy on the other sex. I am an advocate of trans rights, and contrary to your claim, it is not about trans people feeling bad, they should still have the same rights. However, the main issue still lies within the fact that we need to use the bathroom in which we are sexually and biologically. (You have already established the difference between the two)

If one were to go through the operation to get a sex change then of course they should have full entitlement to use the restroom of which they have transformed to. However, hypothetically speaking, lets say a man is biologically the sex of a male, but for whatever reason, he feels as if to identify as the gender of a woman. In order for this person to use the bathroom of the opposite sex, (the gender in which he identifies with) he must medically change his sex from male to female in order to gain entitlement into the opposing bathroom.

To continue, you say rape and sexual assault does not occur frequently in a public place, however this may be currently true, with new legislation being passed people will have more of an opportunity to be able to gain access to the opposite sex restroom, which unfortunately may raise that low statistic of public sexual assault in the future. This is estimated from the past history of sexual misconduct regarding people in the restrooms of the opposing sex. [4]

After all as I have previously stated, trans people should have every entitlement to use the bathroom of choice, so long as they complete the transformation and become the opposing sex biologically through medical operation.

We need to recognize that someone who is transgender should not be allowed into the restroom of opposite sex for reasons regarding perversion and sexual misconduct, as it's not the transgender people that would be feared in this situation, it would be perverts and pedophiles that would be feared. On the other hand, transsexuals should be entitled to the restroom in which they have crossed over into.

Citations:http://www.newyorker.com...
Danielle

Pro

INTRODUCTION

Every single aspect of Con's rebuttal has already been accounted for in the last round. Below I will highlight my opponent's claims in bold, and then copy-and-paste the ways I have already addressed those arguments in the previous round.

REBUTTAL

"The true issue still lies within people posing as the opposite sex in order to spy on the other sex."

>> Since rapists and voyeurs obviously don't care about breaking the law, it's naive to think gendered bathroom signs would be a deterrent. These people are already raping or voyeuring regardless of what the law or signs say.

(If people are caught assaulting or spying in the bathroom, they will be prosecuted as there are already laws against it.)

>> Most rape does not occur in public places, and occurs by someone that the victim actually knows.

"However, the main issue still lies within the fact that we need to use the bathroom in which we are sexually and biologically."

>> Sexual organs alone often cannot distinguish gender. In fact there are lots of intersex conditions. “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.

"To continue, you say rape and sexual assault does not occur frequently in a public place, however this may be currently true, with new legislation being passed people will have more of an opportunity to be able to gain access to the opposite sex restroom, which unfortunately may raise that low statistic of public sexual assault in the future... This is estimated from the past history of sexual misconduct regarding people in the restrooms of the opposing sex."

>> "Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state."

"After all as I have previously stated, trans people should have every entitlement to use the bathroom of choice, so long as they complete the transformation and become the opposing sex biologically through medical operation."

>> Indeed, even if my opponent argues that only transgender people who have had sex change surgeries ought to be allowed to choose their bathroom, how would any bathroom goer know whether or not this person had the surgery?

>> Even if Con suggested making someone strip naked in a public bathroom to check their genitals, this is not Constitutional. U.S. citizens are protected from unreasonable searches by the 4th amendment.

DROPPED ARGUMENTS

1. Trans people suffer discrimination and violence from bathroom policy that does not allow them to choose.

2. Trans people often don't match their biological sex.

3. It is sometimes hard to distinguish one's biological sex, let alone gender.

4. It is unconstitutional and realistic to ask to examine the genitalia of bathroom goers.

5. Rules don't deter people from assault or immoral behavior.

6. The Supreme Court's decision on the Equal Protection Clause...



Debate Round No. 3
ericfleishman

Con

ericfleishman forfeited this round.
Danielle

Pro

Danielle forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by ericfleishman 8 months ago
ericfleishman
Yeah, if you want, you can make your clarification here in the comment section, otherwise I suppose I can.
Posted by Danielle 8 months ago
Danielle
Hey. Can you cancel this debate and re-send the challenge? I'd like to make a clarification (not argument) in Round 1. If you agree, we can contact the moderator and ask them to delete this so we can start over before you post your first argument.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Udel 8 months ago
Udel
ericfleishmanDanielleTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con only had 1 real round. His argument was that there are only 2 sexes in America and people picking their own bathroom puts children in danger. Pro argued that there is more/different gender than sex and that children would already be at risk of pedophiles in any bathroom. Pro says trans people suffer violence and discrimination, and using the bathroom of your choice isn't a big deal. She said soemtimes its hard to know someone's sex and how would you be able to tell if it's illegal to ask someone to whip out their genitals. Con dropped all of these arguments and they both forfeited. Con did not respond to Pro's legal arguments either on why the equal protection clause is violated when people can't choose their bathroom.