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hilton16
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The Contender
debate-a-doom
Con (against)
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Should prisoners do hard labor as their price to society?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/25/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,360 times Debate No: 30695
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
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hilton16

Pro

Today there is no question that the "The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world." With the increasing amount of incarceration than ever before in this country history is it about time we turn the cornerstone and pass a law that make prisoners do hard labor as their price to society. According to Wikipedia, In the past two decades, the money that states spend on prisons has risen at six times the rate of spending on higher education. In 2011, California spent $9.6 billion on prisons, versus $5.7 billion on higher education..... The state spends $8,667 per student per year. It spends about $50,000 per inmate per year. Why is this happening? Prisons are a big business. Most are privately run. They have powerful lobbyists and they have bought most state politicians. Meanwhile, we are bankrupting out states and creating a vast underclass of prisoners who will never be equipped for productive lives. Our federal government and state government keep complaining that jobs are being shift oversees, we do not have productivity citizens to be qualify for the job hiring, and we keep on talking about China cheep labor. How would we not have productive citizens, stop jobs oversee, when were making stupid decisions being spending more on prisons than on higher education or the things that matters to most to our society the most. Imagine all the billions we spend on prisons annually, and set that as our spending cut, I bet you it will come up to trillions in government budget to reduce our debt. Our nations debt stands at 16,621,283,344,597.10 and counting! think our the future of our nation!

Sometimes I come to ask myself who do we continue such practice. All the billions we spent on prison could go through the general population of those who cannot afford Medicaid or Medicare. today it's a constant battle in our federal government on what is most refer to as "Obama-care" if we cut spending on prisons we can spend more on education, infrastructure, Medicaid, or even Medicare. Or even on the poor.

Studies show that those who come out of prison tends to returns back. There got to be a reason! While talking about prison in class I came across a remark by my teacher that prisoners get the best health care in the world! We spent such high amount of these unworthy people and forget our general population who live off food stamp, Medicaid, Medicare. People see a reason to return back to prison because of this best health care in the world. I sometimes ask myself why " Prisons are a big business. Most are privately run. " these prison should be state run not private run for business profit.

I propose that we make prisoners do hard labor as their price to society; such as crushing rocks, moving blocks and or other materials, clean streets and repaint building, and do things that are harmful to humans. I also propose that our government stop spending so much on prison and all these great health care. I ask that our government stop building recreation areas for entertainment. Being in prison shouldn't seem as your everyday life but a nightmare in hell!
debate-a-doom

Con

first of all, I would like to respond to what you said briefly, and I will go deeper later in my argument. You dealt a lot with proving that prisons cost a lot, that might be true, and yet quite irrelevant. Why do I say this? a lot of things cost lots of money, military for example - if you saw the numbers spent there you would be in complete shock, so why is it that we don't cut down their budget? because the military is necessary, because it is something that we needs. If we take that analogy and bring it to this case - prisons are a necessity, for punishment and order in the country and for citizens safety, I think those are very valuable things for spending money on, after all, we are dealing with saving our citizen's lives here. I want to make it clear that this debate is not about whether we could make lots of money from jails or not, but more so on whether it is right of us to make money from jails, and if it will lead to better outcomes for the inmates and for society.

Now I want to take this further, you at no point gave me a reason why it is ok in any way for you to force labor on prisoners. Slavery is something that a country does not accept, and that is sort of what you will be causing, the only reason you allow yourself to even suggest such a scandal is because we are talking about a group of people that "no one cares about" because "they chose crime". Here is why that logic fails:
you yourself said, and I quote: "Studies show that those who come out of prison tend to returns back. There got to be a reason!"
that is true! there is a reason! however I'm sad that you chose to make an assertion saying the reason is that their lives are good in prison. Not only are their lives not good in prison, the reason their life is not good in prison is why they get charged again. I'll explain, society is not stupid, it did not choose to put people behind bars for no reason. When I lock someone up in prison I have a few goals: 1. protect society from the criminals 2. punishment 3. rehabilitation.
now, when you put someone in prison, you keep them away from their family, you take away their freedom. That is not as trivial as it seems, imagine yourself being taken from your home one day, put in a small cell with abusive inmates, one bathroom out in the open, no privacy, no life, just a bed and endless time, sitting there in your orange uniform, fighting for your basic needs each day the highlight of your day being a half an hour to an hour of "yard time". You don't do this for one day, you do this for a year, or two, or three. You don't get to take a "time out", to take a trip to Europe, to go to a fancy restaurant to celebrate your birthday, you don't eat Christmas dinner with your family, you don't see your kid growing up, you don't hear their first words. You can't provide for your family - you feel useless. Because budget is tight, guards have a hard time controlling the inmates, and the cells are relatively crowded. Not bending in the shower is not a myth in prison. You have to find "your gang", if you don't play by prison rules, you lose, maybe your respect, your male dignity, sometimes even your life. You have to remember that even if you are a gum thief, in yard time you walk next to murderers, rapists and the like. That is not a fun scenario by itself, and it is by all means a punishment, otherwise society would from the beginning have chosen something different.

Now I would like to refer to rehabilitation, again going back to your sentence regarding criminals getting back into prison, the reason that happens, is that the current law system is not budgeted enough. Prisoners are held next to other (sometimes worse) criminals, are not given proper treatment, and a proper chance to truly build themselves again. A person can not rehabilitate from being put next to a bunch of other criminals to survive for a few years, in fact, he will only develop more of these "habits" (aka violent ways, and "street talk"), you might want to claim that it is impossible to rehabilitate prisoners, and to answer that in advance I'll say this - what makes a person commit a crime?
that is indeed a very difficult question to answer, but let me attempt answering it. I think one of the main things that would make a person commit a crime are circumstances, bad education and traumas. The true sadistic people who enjoy watching people suffer are very rare. However, people who grew up in a house where they were not treated properly, where they kind of had to make it on their own since they were kids, maybe they had an abusive father, if you go to prison, that's mostly what you will find, truly heart breaking stories like those. So yes, they made a mistake, but we are humans, that's why we didn't kill them - because we think they deserve a chance to prove us they can change, but I assure you that with prisons as they are today they already have a very low chance of doing this, yet still a chance - rates of getting charged again are high, but high means that some of them still stay out there in society. Your offer, is to make their life even worse - which will obviously negatively affect their possibility to rehabilitate. The worse you make the circumstances, the more you will see those criminals coming back in again, why do I care? because before they come in the second time, they'll kill another person, or steal something else, or commit another crime and hurt society. So all in all - it is society's interest that they rehabilitate, otherwise, walking the streets would be more dangerous than it already is.

Also, you yourself said that the reason for the labor is not that the inmates aren't getting punished hard enough and we need to find new and interesting ways to abuse them, but that the country needs money, and who easier to screw over than the inmates that when trying to speak for themselves society hushes them, that's the easy solution, but it's not the right one.

I therefore plead that we do not let our emotions and our need for money fog us from seeing what's right and what's wrong.
Debate Round No. 1
hilton16

Pro

Thank you Mr. "Debate-a-doom" that's a interesting argument you had. But i will like to put out a few things or otherwise mistakes you made before i go deeper. first you made the overhulm argument on "rehilibilation" but didn't seems to read my question very well. you made the argument with no sense that there should be a price to society. And you right that "a lot of things cost lots of money" but i never mention that alot of things don't cost lots of money. Let me quote you on this "prisons are a necessity, for punishment and order in the country and for citizens safety, I think those are very valuable things for spending money on, " yes prisons are necessity, for punishment and order in the country and for citizens safety. But we spent so much on this that even more crimes tend to happen. Also those who we do put in prision we put them back on the street. Does that shows a care for citizens safety? You have made the assertment that "those are very valuable things you spend money on" what about our educational system. We about the millions of people who do not have the skills require for a certain job. What about the millions of older generation we can no longer afford to get a job, don't they need medicaid. Thats what Obama trying to provide but isn't it that we having a constant battle on of the "price" well if we cut prisons spending don't you think we'll be able to provide all that. What about the millions of American that go hunger, or those with disablities who cannot afford to provide for themselves. Doesn't that matter to you than to spent taxpayers dollar on this lowlifes citizens who no nothing but to destroy a society?

"Now I want to take this further, you at no point gave me a reason why it is ok in any way for you to force labor on prisoners." now let me take this further, it must seems that you shows a lack of reading. Having to do force labor is their price to society. While it is true that "Slavery is something that a country does not accept, and that is sort of what you will be causing, the only reason you allow yourself to even suggest such a scandal is because we are talking about a group of people that "no one cares about" because "they chose crime"." it is also important that you get your facts straight or your argument right. no one ever said "no one cares about" them because that is certainly not true. If my father go to prisions are you saying i don't care about him. Those who go to prisions are our brother and sister so yes i do care about them. But they chose crime instead of seeking a better life. Are you saying that we should keep letting this people pose serious threat to our soceity and keep on treating them with their normal life like recreations, and foods, and other human needs. Let me make clear: This is not what we consider slavery, this is what we consider "price to soceity. " Slavery is " The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household"-www.thefreedictionary.com/slavery. No one is owning them as an property.

"that is true! there is a reason! however I'm sad that you chose to make an assertion saying the reason is that their "lives are good in prison. " i never made such claim! I never claim that their lives are good in prision. No one life is not in prison. No one want to be behind bars and claim their life is good is prision. This is what i said: There got to be a reason! While talking about prison in class I came across a remark by my teacher that prisoners get the best health care in the world! We spent such high amount of these unworthy people and forget our general population who live off food stamp, Medicaid, Medicare. People see a reason to return back to prison because of this best health care in the world. Man you got to get your facts straight and show a sense of good reading skill. You seems like an intellgent person show that. It's true that "When I lock someone up in prison I have a few goals: 1. protect society from the criminals 2. punishment 3. rehabilitation" but isn't it true that they have a debt to society and they shouldn't have to pay for it? we already spent alot of money on these people with food, healthcare, recreation, and than we going to spent even more with rehabilitation that generally those not tend to work. I once watch a documentary on this and i don't seems to know why we keep on spending on rehabilitation when it generally does not seem to work. That's why i said "With the increasing amount of incarceration than ever before in this country history is it about time we turn the cornerstone and pass a law that make prisoners do hard labor as their price to society. " we cannot continue with the tradition that just don't seems to work. We need to find a different approach. "now, when you put someone in prison, you keep them away from their family, you take away their freedom. That is not as trivial as it seems, imagine yourself being taken from your home one day, put in a small cell with abusive inmates, one bathroom out in the open, no privacy, no life, just a bed and endless time, sitting there in your orange uniform, fighting for your basic needs each day the highlight of your day being a half an hour to an hour of "yard time". You don't do this for one day, you do this for a year, or two, or three. You don't get to take a "time out", to take a trip to Europe, to go to a fancy restaurant to celebrate your birthday, you don't eat Christmas dinner with your family, you don't see your kid growing up, you don't hear their first words." they deserve it! if you wanted all this you should have not commit a crime!

Rehilibation: There is no point on wasting taxpayers dollar on rehilibation. It doesn't matter if you are in a room with another inmates. you wouldn't have been there if you hadn't have committed the crime. "you might want to claim that it is impossible to rehabilitate prisoners" yes it's possible.With all the money being spent yes its possible. But there is not need for it. Why give a prisioners proper treatment if hes going to return back again! do you get my point?

What makes a person commit a crime: " bad education and traumas. " i'm glad you point that out. And if you read my previous argument you'll see that California spent more on prioson than on higher education. Since it's bad education why don't we cut those prisions budget and spent it on "education" to make it better. to avoid these crimes. statistally our people do not have the requirement job skill for a job so job hiring remains open. "they made a mistake, but we are humans, that's why we didn't kill them - because we think they deserve a chance to prove us they can change, " we keep on giving them second chance. isn't time we stop! we go far beyond second chance. it's time we take a different appraoch. yes "people who grew up in a house where they were not treated properly, where they kind of had to make it on their own since they were kids, maybe they had an abusive father, if you go to prison, that's mostly what you will find, truly heart breaking stories like those." but shouldn't we spent money on them than? than on prisions. Your offer, is to make their life even worse" ok, those not my claim but i will extend that. Let's try to make their life even worse. stop the recreation with give them, stop the heavy load of food we give them, stop giving them the best healthcare in the world, having them do labor, wouldn't that change things for the better?! "The worse you make the circumstances, the more you will see those criminals coming back in again, " we already see them coming back! And we having even started this pratice yet! " it is society's interest that they rehabilitate, otherwise, walking the streets would be more dangerous than it already is." it is society's interest to know that there hard earn money they pay as tax is use on something worthwhile for instance education. or on the poor!

I theore restate that we turn the cornerstone for change!
debate-a-doom

Con

(Ms.) well instigator, allow me to get right to it:
What you have said regarding my argument of rehabilitation is plainly wrong. I agree that a part of the reasons for penalties is punishment, but I mentioned it is not -the only reason- and it seems kind of absurd to me of you to try and argue that rehabilitation is in no way necessary - it can prevent further crimes, it can change lives, of prisoners and society as a whole, you really need to give me a good reason why it is not ok to rehabilitate prisoners.
I realize you never said other things don't cost lots of money - I was just explaining the logic, it's ok to spend major amount of money on something if it's so necessary, and prisons are necessary - therefore it is ok to spend money on them, which is also why this was in no way an assertion. I also agree that education is important to spend money on, however like you yourself said, no prisons means complete chaos and crimes daily. No education means society moves forwards more slowly, so that kind of shows you which we should spend money on as a first priority.

"Also those who we do put in prison we put them back on the street. Does that shows a care for citizens safety?"
no? especially not if we don't rehabilitate them and send them just like they used to be back on the streets, or are you suggesting that any criminal, even a little thief or the like should be put in prison for life together with expert murderers?

About the medical aid - I would gladly provide anyone and everyone with medical aid and I would gladly help the handicapped, you need spend less energy on this subject because that is something we agree on. What we don't agree on, is that the right place to get this money is by creating slaves inside jails, by preventing basic human rights from all various criminals, and I explained in the previous post exactly why that is not ok.

It seems I need to make this more clear. "Having to do force labor is their price to society." is explaining what they will do, and not why that is the right way for them to pay the price to society, I also gave you many explanations of how harmful this is, and you choose to ignore that. At what cost are we willing to get money we need? why is it ok to make prisoners do labor but not African Americans? there is a reason not everyone gets the same penalty, and the reason is that society doesn't think certain punishments are legitimate for certain crimes. It is your responsibility to explain to me, why you think this punishment is in any way legitimate, I gave you many reasons why it isn't.

"no one ever said "no one cares about" them because that is certainly not true....."
I did not mean to say that you don't care about them on a personal level, especially if you know them. However when you think about them as a group YOU (not me, it's you who is doing this) are saying because they chose crime, they are now less important and they don't deserve what normal people do deserve. And I want to claim this is based on not fully thought throw feelings, and I disagree with you, first of all, because it depends what crime they committed, and you ignored this point completely. To answer your question, yes, I, and your state, think that criminals deserve to not be prevented of their basic needs, because we have no choice but to keep them in facilities, at least for the time being, then yes, money needs to be paid for their food, it is inhumane and not coherent with western believes to let them starve to death. Actually, I'm glad you quoted this definition for slavery, because it shows, in my opinion, exactly why you would make prisoners slaves. If you treated criminals like human beings with rights, you would not be able to decide when and where they have to work and why. It is only because the state feels these people are their property.

Debt to society: Let me explain it this way, your mother fed you, she washed you and she cared for you. Should we therefore force you to work without pay for her, to pay back your debt? The only debt a person has to a society is being a good civilian, it is not crossing the country's rules. Other than that, all of us are given advantages and none of us is forced to work for free to repay this. The difference between us and criminals is not how much the country gives us, it is only that one wrong choice the criminal made. Does that in any way cause them to owe something to society? yes, but the only debt they have is to sit through the punishment chose for them, and to try and open up to the help they are given, if they don't they will end up being punished again.

I'm sorry but " I once watch a documentary on this and I don't seems to know why we keep on spending on rehabilitation when it generally does not seem to work." is a complete assertion. We do see criminals who get out of prisons and build themselves up again, and those who don't, don't because current prisons aren't built well enough for rehabilitation. In Norway for example, prisons are very different and they have a much higher percentage of rehabilitation cases.
Again, we agree a different approach is needed, but enslaving humans is not the way. "they deserve it! if you wanted all this you should have not commit a crime!" I never claimed they didn't deserve it, I think they are given proper punishment. My point was exactly this - they are already being punished, there is no need for further punishment by labor, they are already experiencing enough pain, again, explained this in my previous post.

"But there is not need for it. Why give a prisoners proper treatment if he's going to return back again! do you get my point?" the point of rehabilitation, is that they build themselves again, and they do not come back, if they come back, I would not call this rehabilitation, or not a successful attempt at it anyway. Why is rehabilitation necessary you asked me, so I'll give you an answer. You want to protect society a lot, you talk about society's interests and the like. Those prisoners, in the current judging system are not giving life long penalties for every single crime. This means that we have criminals leaving the jail, after experiencing horrible things, and being put back in their home with small guidance or help to survive. That is why they commit crimes again, and the worse you make their prison experience instead of rebuilding them as a better person, the more likely they are to become repeat offenders. So basically, by rehabilitating criminals, you will not only benefit them, but you will protect society in a way that in the long run will be cheaper for us, because they won't keep going back to prison which we pay for!

" I'm glad you point that out." because poor education doesn't happen in school, it happens at home, it happens from their mother not teaching them that stealing is bad, from their father being an abusive meth addict.
"we keep on giving them second chance. isn't time we stop!" so are you suggesting life long penalties for all criminals?
We can spend money on those kids and not enslave the prisoners, again, that is not part of this debate because we agree it would be ideal to spend more money there, but not on expense of prisoners.
"having them do labor, wouldn't that change things for the better?!" I really don't see how that would be better and humane in any way. "we already see them coming back! And we having even started this practice yet!" that's right, that's why I think we actually need to spend more money on rehabilitation and on prisons, but certainly not less, also, not all of them come back to prison, but with your offer we can be certain a much higher number will.

" it is society's interest to know that there hard earn money they pay as tax is use on something worthwhile for instance education. or on the poor!"
it is societies interest to remain human and fairly judging, if we fall short of these in prisons, we will start falling short of that everywhere
Debate Round No. 2
hilton16

Pro

(Ms.) well instigator,-It's (Mr.) an instigator is my title as yours is contender. my name is Hilton.
Alright. Every year we spent billions not millions, but billions of dollar every year on prisons. Everyday we put billions on rehabilitating criminals, providing foods, health care, and other related things. So I ask the question again what about our educational system. We about the millions of people who do not have the skills require for a certain job. What about the millions of older generation who can no longer afford to get a job, don't they need Medicaid. What about the millions of American that go hunger, or those with disabilities who cannot afford to provide for themselves. Doesn't that matter to you than to spent taxpayers dollar on this lowlifes citizens who no nothing but to destroy a society? Those who go to prison have gone to prison in the first place if what they needed they had it. If we spent more on education it could train and better our citizens for the better. If they were train and have the proper skill for a job they be able to provide of themselves and stay away from the dark world. Let's say all those billions of dollar we spend annually on prisons to provide for our older generation, feed hungry Americans, and help those with disabilities who can not provide of themselves. Wouldn't that changes thing for the better.

"no prisons means complete chaos and crimes daily. No education means society moves forwards more slowly, so that kind of shows you which we should spend money on as a first priority." I was going to be a great idea since you pointed out this question to answer it. Education of course will be a first priority, because you wouldn't have all this "complete chaos and crimes daily" if those who had an education can make them stay away from those daily life's. statistics show that countries with better education has a lower crime rate. "Crime has and always will be a part of human society; thus, finding a solution to its complete eradication is not a rational goal. Working toward reducing the numbers of those incarcerated by providing an education and demanding that children complete a certain amount of years in school appears to be one of the ways to combat this growing problem." (Read more: Relationship Between Crime Rate & Education | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com...- education.html#ixzz2M347PJer) Now let me ask you which one will be a first priority? you talk about rehabilitation alot, but don't seems to explain how we can rehabilitate criminals. A great way to rehabilitate criminals is by providing them a with education for them to be better citizens. Because if they have the education requires for a job hiring than they can get that job. Which will avoid them from committing crime. So instead of wasting so much money on prisons (best health care, food, recreation, and other use stuff) how about we spend it on education to better these people. Maybe a criminal education rehabilitation program (CERP) From my previous statement California spend 9.9B on prisons imagine if that amount was put to education it can have a great amount on the citizens.

I've made my point clear enough on this rehabilitation. There is no point on wasting taxpayers dollar on rehilibation. It doesn't matter if you are in a room with another inmates. you wouldn't have been there if you hadn't have committed the crime. You make an false alarm and I quote "which you claim that you really need to give me a good reason why it is not ok to rehabilitate prisoners." I never mention that it is not ok to rehabilitate prisoners. this is what I said..."you might want to claim that it is impossible to rehabilitate prisoners" yes it's possible. With all the money being spent yes its possible. But there is not need for it. Why give a prisoners proper treatment if He's going to return back again!

" especially not if we don't rehabilitate them and send them just like they used to be back on the streets, or are you suggesting that any criminal, even a little thief or the like should be put in prison for life together with expert murderers?" rehabilitate is not everything. it is not the clear solution though it be mean a good solution. But I promise a persons experience in prisons will tell them one or two about committing a crime and returning to the past experience. Did you read the statement: " Prisons are a big business. Most are privately run. They have powerful lobbyists and they have bought most state politicians. " you claim making criminals do force labor will be "slavery." So what about private prisons that are not run by state, but are run by business tycoon, aren't they belong to those business tycoon. Isn't it there business to do what they want with their business. How come you don't seem to have any problem with that. But remarking on my claim that criminals doing labor is "slavery" " Slavery is something that a country does not accept, and that is sort of what you will be causing," if slavery is something a country does not want they why are prisons privately run and are business own. We live in a capitalist society so they govt cannot intervene into people business. Do we know what these private run prisons business tycoon are doing everyday?! How will this be something I will be causing, how is doing hard labor as a debt to society is slavery. Our states politcans are bought and they let private run prisons do their thing....Isn't there something that is going on in those prisons with billions coming in profit?

" What we don't agree on, is that the right place to get this money is by creating slaves inside jails, by preventing basic human rights from all various criminals, " as my statement above, some prisons are private run. Isn't this creating money by slaves inside jails. Or they preventing basic human rights from all various criminals because it's their business and they have the right to do what they want with it?

your counter argument has no logical and explanation to it, it also show that you got bad reading skill... " is explaining what they will do, and not why that is the right way for them to pay the price to society, " I already explain what they will do..."I propose that we make prisoners do hard labor as their price to society; such as crushing rocks, moving blocks and or other materials, clean streets and repaint building, " I also propose that our government stop spending so much on prison and all these great health care. I ask that our government stop building recreation areas for entertainment. Being in prison shouldn't seem as your everyday life but a nightmare in hell!" why is it that you don't seems to see that. Or you didn't read my argument thoroughly? ". At what cost are we willing to get money we need?" the same cost our politicians and business tycoon are willing. Look this slavery thing is happening in private prisons. I'm not saying we put our human to certain cost. But said they got a debt to society. Make them do something in prison before coming out. It is your responsibility to explain to me, why you think this punishment is in any way legitimate" it is your responsibility to give men legitimate argument why criminals should pay a price to society when its already happening in private prisons!
"depends what crime they committed, and you ignored this point completely. " ok, our restate it in a better way. Depending on the level of crime should their debt be. Even having such level they still do not pay debt to society. And you made arguments about "it is inhumane and not coherent with western believes to let them starve to death. " isn't inhumane to give humans inject to put them to them. Or is it not inhumane but human labor.

-It is the government duty to provide "justice to all" simpling letting these people back into our society will only destroy our society even more! We need change. We need a different approach. Now is the time!
debate-a-doom

Con

actually, I was telling you I'm a ms. I realize you are a Mr. and sorry for that Hilton,

You insist of ignoring my comments about this being off-clash. We agree that more money needs to be spent on education and in many other things. Again, what we disagree on is that the right way to do it is by enslaving prisoners. Your case can't be built on great need unless you prove that we have tried every other possible resource and have not gotten money from it, and I don't think we have, there are many options to try but that is also off-clash. You initially set this debate being about prisoners being put to hard labor to "pay back" society.. or more correctly, because we need money and hey, I found an easy way to get it. So the true question in this debate, is, is this legitimate? and there are many different smaller things within the debate that we should get into, but how much money is needed is just irrelevant.

" Let's say all those billions of dollar we spend annually on prisons to provide for our older generation, feed hungry Americans, and help those with disabilities who can not provide of themselves. Wouldn't that changes thing for the better."
for the elderly? sure. For the prisoners, absolutely not, and it's not ok and not humane to do so, if we need money for those causes, we should find a better and humane way to do it. It's like I wouldn't agree to man slaughter if it gave me money to spend on the elderly.

"Education of course will be a first priority, because you wouldn't have all this" what you quoted was correlation and not causal reasoning, so that means that the reason those countries have less crime might be completely different than their better education, perhaps because they are richer countries? and more rich people = less crime? there are many other options, but the point is that it does not prove that education will bring with it less crime. Also, if you take money spent on jails and not force labor on prisoners, which I specifically gave you many reasons as to why I don't agree to, then you will have a mid situation where criminals are running around the streets and making life impossible, and because of that even if you do spend more money on education and maybe prevent a small amount of future criminals (emphasize on maybe) you still will be caught in an impossible chaos, and my first priority is still jails.

" A great way to rehabilitate criminals is by providing them a with education for them to be better citizens. Because if they have the education requires for a job hiring than they can get that job. Which will avoid them from committing crime. So instead of wasting so much money on prisons"
ok, so let's put more money into jails and provide criminals with educational lessons, I agree. Taking money out of jail - maybe will prevent a small amount of criminals (you didn't explain how) but it will not be any better for current prisoners.

Also, I'm not against encouraging criminals to grow and allowing them to have a place where they CAN work in, but I am against forcing labor on them and using them for profits in an inhumane way. If you see potential in criminals and want to make them lawyers and doctors, I support that completely.

"Why give a prisoners proper treatment if He's going to return back again!" again the point of rehabilitation is preventing them from returning back to jail! that's the entire idea behind it! if that doesn't happen, then it was not proper rehabilitation, and not all prisoners return, especially once who got good rehabilitation.

"But I promise a persons experience in prisons will tell them one or two about committing a crime and returning to the past experience." well, factually it doesn't. When you punish a kid, if you don't tell them at the end of the punishment, "here is what you were punished for ..., here is what you need to avoid so you don't get this punishment again .." they will repeat the bad action. With grown people who are in difficult circumstances, which because of them they commuted the crime, you need to give them tools to deal with reality, otherwise they will repeat the crime most likely.

"you claim making criminals do force labor will be "slavery." So what about private prisons that are not run by state, but are run by business tycoon, aren't they belong to those business tycoon. Isn't it there business to do what they want with their business." WHAT?! I'm sorry but it's shocking to me that you would claim that because those people have a business with people they somehow own the people in their business. Does any employer own their worker? does a landlord own the people renting his home? I think it's clear, if you need further clarification ask for it.

"Our states politcans are bought and they let private run prisons do their thing....Isn't there something that is going on in those prisons with billions coming in profit?" if they are doing something extremely wrong, then we need to fix it immediately or converse on shutting them down. Nothing to do with whether the country should, yes, enslave prisoners. Also, no, you are not entitled to crush human rights for business.

" it also show that you got bad reading skill" try to keep it clean, this is a debate and not a personal bash, if you continue this line I will not debate with you.
" I already explain what they will do..."I propose that we make prisoners do hard labor as their price to society; such as crushing rocks, moving blocks and or other materials, clean streets and repaint building" - I said that you explained what they will do, and I told you that you DIDN'T explain why this is the right way for them to pay society.

"the same cost our politicians and business tycoon are willing. Look this slavery thing is happening in private prisons." two wrongs don't make a right. If they did, the prisoners would be free.

" it is your responsibility to give men legitimate argument why criminals should pay a price to society when its already happening in private prisons!" again, two wrongs don't make a right and I explained exactly when people owe someone something and why prisoners don't owe society something of the sort you are suggesting.

"isn't inhumane to give humans inject to put them to them. Or is it not inhumane but human labor." this is a very foggy sentence, I'm assuming you meant death penalty by injection. The answer is that I never supported the death penalty, it's also inhumane.

"It is the government duty to provide "justice to all" simpling letting these people back into our society will only destroy our society even more! We need change. We need a different approach. Now is the time!"
very true, time we spent more money on prisoners so they can truly rehabilitate.
Debate Round No. 3
hilton16

Pro

Let's me start out by saying that i didn't say "we need money" i said the billions of dollar that are going towards prisons couldn't be use on education! Not that i said "we need money." This is a rich country so i wouldn't tell you we need money. I said we need to spend the billions we spend on prisons on education.
"for the elderly? sure. For the prisoners, absolutely not, and it's not ok and not humane to do so, if we need money for those causes, we should find a better and humane way to do it." your own argument backfires against you. If you say "for the elderly? sure. FOr the prisoners, absolutely not, and it's not ok and not humane to do so" than why would you insist on making "my first priority is still jails."? If you made this statement "time we spent more money on prisoners so they can truly rehabilitate. " than how would we insist on helping the elderly than? "what you quoted was correlation and not causal reasoning, so that means that the reason those countries have less crime might be completely different than their better education, perhaps because they are richer countries? and more rich people = less crime? there are many other options, but the point is that it does not prove that education will bring with it less crime. " i'll like to point out to you is that your claim is wrong! You ask "pershaps because they are richer countries" the US is the richest country in the world yet it has the highest incarceration rate in the world. Now how do you explain that. Second, according to http://www.elc-pa.org..., "Research shows that individuals who graduate and have access to quality education throughout primary and secondary school are more likely to find gainful employment, have stable families, and be active and productive citizens. They are also less likely to commit serious crimes, less likely to place high demands on the public health care system. A good education provides substantial benefits to individuals and, as individual benefits are aggregated throughout a community, creates broad social and economic benefits." "They are also less likely to commit serious crimes" can you explain to me that "the point is that it does not prove that education will bring with it less crime" Your arguments are not broad-based and they do not have sufficient evidence on your points. You only point out your opinions. The same research shows that "41% of all prisoners have not completed high school," what if maybe we have spend more on education wouldn't that number change? The same research state "FastFact: Public education provides one of the best opportunities to reduce crime and its cost to society, by helping children to gain, knowledge, skills and character" i'm guessing their wrong...? Final research fact "the costs of incarceration (infrastructure, staff, housing and food, counseling, prisoner education programs)" all this rehilibation you're talking about is already being done. But yet we still see more people incarcerated. Does it not appeal to you...? " Also, if you take money spent on jails and not force labor on prisoners, which I specifically gave you many reasons as to why I don't agree to, then you will have a mid situation where criminals are running around the streets and making life impossible, and because of that even if you do spend more money on education and maybe prevent a small amount of future criminals (emphasize on maybe) you still will be caught in an impossible chaos, and my first priority is still jails." i said the billions we spent on prisons could be spent on education. It's better to spend more money on education and maybe prevent a small amount of future criminals now than to wait. Though it may be a small amount it may be a greater benefit in the long-term. "take money spent on jails" i didn't say we should take money spent on jails. i said instead of "wasting so much money on prisons!"" I also said instead of spending more on prisions we should spent more on education. " California spent $9.6 billion on prisons, versus $5.7 billion on higher education." spenting 5.7b on prisions will still work. instead of 9.6b we spent on prisions it should be spent on education.
" so let's put more money into jails and provide criminals with educational lessons, I agree. Taking money out of jail " your first statement was right, As you said " two wrongs don't make a right" i think you need to look back at it. i didn't say "take money out of jail" i said we waste so much money on jail (prisons). " Taking money out of jail (as if it was my word, ) - maybe will prevent a small amount of criminals (you didn't explain how) but it will not be any better for current prisoners." why wouldn't it be better for current prisoners when research clearly shows that education has a great impact?
" but I am against forcing labor on them and using them for profits in an inhumane way." how is crushing rocks, moving materials, cleaning streets, or repainting buildings bring in profits? no one ever said it brings in profits. All i said is that we should spend more on education than on prisions! And that, as my title state "prie to society" thats their price to society. I didn't mention thats how its going to bring in profits. " two wrongs don't make a right" as you yourself said. I would like to point out another thing "private prisions" bring in profits. Now why don't you have see that as bringing in profit but see crushing rocks, moving materials, cleaning streets, or repainting buildings as bring in profits? i don't understand.
"Why give a prisoners proper treatment if He's going to return back again!" again the point of rehabilitation is preventing them from returning back to jail! that's the entire idea behind it! if that doesn't happen, then it was not proper rehabilitation, and not all prisoners return, especially once who got good rehabilitation." well if they did not get a good rehabilitation aren't they coming back to prisons and aren't we going to spend money again on rehabilitating them? Education will have an greater impact than rehabilitation from preventing them from returning back to jail!
Private prisons are own by business tycoon, the business belongs to you. you do what you want to do. in the case of private prisons tycoon(bus) do unexpected things you probably don't even know about. but your claim is that what i'm saying is that we "force labor on prisoners," a business owner tell his employees what to do. Isn't that the same case in prisons what the private owners tell their employees what to do. And prisoners & prisons are different by the way so the owner tell the prisoners what to do; because its their prisons they (prisoners) are in. And they are---prisoners. i do not support private prisons or whatever they are doing. But i do support public prisons where its run by the state to make prisoners do labor.
"I propose that we make prisoners do hard labor as their price to society; such as crushing rocks, moving blocks and or other materials, clean streets and repaint building" - I said that you explained what they will do, and I told you that you DIDN'T explain why this is the right way for them to pay society." how do you propose they pay back to society? i'm pretty sure its not rehabilitation.
"the same cost our politicians and business tycoon are willing. Look this slavery thing is happening in private prisons." two wrongs don't make a right. If they did, the prisoners would be free." is that true that the prisoners would be free? if state politicians are bought why would they intervene? if those billions earn are pay in tax why would state politicians. i do not support private prisons and whatever they whatever they are doing. so don't think thats what i'm doing here.
"very true, time we spent more money on prisoners so they can truly rehabilitate." time we cut prisons spending and spent more money on educations for these prisoners to better themselves. Also pay debt to societ
debate-a-doom

Con

debate-a-doom forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
hilton16

Pro

well than it was great having to debate with you. i respect the fact that you accepted this debate and debated it. good debatee!
debate-a-doom

Con

debate-a-doom forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by hilton16 4 years ago
hilton16
That's exactly what i'm saying " do a job like this " like my debate topic "should prisoners do hard labor as their price to society." not having be forced to but having to do hard labor.
Posted by zezima 4 years ago
zezima
if its a private jail then i guess they have the right. i think that if they do hard labor they can be rewarded. when i say rewarded i mean like more phone calls and stuff. i think you should be aloud to do a job like this but not be forced to.
Posted by hilton16 4 years ago
hilton16
it is your responsibility to give men legitimate argument why criminals should pay a price to society when its already happening in private prisons! i forget the write *shouldn't* not should
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