The Instigator
LearnLoveLiveLife
Pro (for)
Winning
30 Points
The Contender
elphaba1389
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points

Should psychadelic drugs such as LSD, marijuana, etc. be legalized, government created, and taxed?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/18/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,369 times Debate No: 4727
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (12)

 

LearnLoveLiveLife

Pro

I am a person dedicated to exploring the TRUTH about drugs and psychoactive substances.

I would like to see reform of laws and punishments, and more emphasis on drug education and teaching people about the realities of drug use.

Drugs are not ALL bad.
What drugs do are not ALL bad.
People tend to use them for bad reasons, and do not understand the consequences of using them on themselves and others.

There is a time, place, and people for everything. With all this talk about change,

the time is now.

I encourage anyone who DOES NOT support this view to challenge me or my ideas in a respectful manner, but to also think about why they do not support this view.

============READ THIS=============
I DO NOT advocate drug use, ENCOURAGE drug use, OR EVEN SUPPORT drug use. I simply ENCOURAGE ADVOCATE AND SUPPORT the facts surrounding drug use, the spiritual and intellectual gain that may come out of drug use, and hope to make the world a better place. I am not telling anyone to go out and do drugs, that is your own decision. But if you are going to do drugs, at least KNOW what you're getting yourself into and KNOW how it may effect you and those around you.
==========READ THIS===============
elphaba1389

Con

first, I would like to thank my opponent for posting this debate.

obviously, my position on this issue is most definitely no. I do not believe in any shape or form that drugs should be government created and/or taxed. I understand that there are some benefits to VERY SMALL doses of marijuana, which is fine so long as each does is recorded and administered under medical supervision in a hospital to avoid problems.

you said: "I simply ENCOURAGE ADVOCATE AND SUPPORT the facts surrounding drug use, the spiritual and intellectual gain that may come out of drug use, and hope to make the world a better place."

How are you making the world a better place by encouraging, advocating, and supporting the gain of using drugs? By making this statement, you are supporting drug use. That's like saying, I support the idea that exercise is healthy for you, but I do not support exercising. If you know that something is good for you, than you support it. So you support drug use, maybe not drug ABUSE, but drug use.

"But if you are going to do drugs, at least KNOW what you're getting yourself into and KNOW how it may effect you and those around you." While I totally agree with this statement, there are some issues.

According to <http://www.nida.nih.gov...;, at the end of 2007:
Percentage of 8th graders using any illicit drug: 19%
Percentage of 10th graders using any illicit drug: 14.6%
Percentage of 12th graders using any illicit drug: 29.5%

In the 8th grade, you are 13 years old. With all the media and news and sites around the internet, one retains enough to know how harmful drugs can be. They may not know the FULL extent of the harm, but they do know it is harmful. My point in all this is, at 13, 14, or even 18, you KNOW what you are doing. You know that drugs are harming you, but you don't care because you like going on the "trip". However, many who maybe want to quit can't because the withdrawal phase is too much to handle for most. So they stay addicts the majority of their lives.

Drugs destroy lives, period. Whether you take a small dose or smoke 10 blunts a day, they destroy lives. Those small doses turn into bigger doses as your body needs more to satisfy the need. Back to medical marijuana, those small doses do something for our body, while they may be helping us, they do become addicting. Hence why many people abuse prescription drugs.
Debate Round No. 1
LearnLoveLiveLife

Pro

==Okay. First, I would like to thank my opponent for accepting my debate. I will from here on dissect her first argument and further support my own.

"Obviously, my position on this issue is most definitely no. I do not believe in any shape or form that drugs should be government created and/or taxed. I understand that there are some benefits to VERY SMALL doses of marijuana, which is fine so long as each does is recorded and administered under medical supervision in a hospital to avoid problems."

==This is a great statement, however, it is completely the OPINION of my opponent, and has in no way been supported by factual information.

"How are you making the world a better place by encouraging, advocating, and supporting the gain of using drugs? By making this statement, you are supporting drug use. That's like saying, I support the idea that exercise is healthy for you, but I do not support exercising. If you know that something is good for you, than you support it. So you support drug use, maybe not drug ABUSE, but drug use."

==Perhaps I was not clear in my argument before. I DO NOT support, condone, or encourage drug use. I have tried every drug there is (minus PCP and a few others I feel should not be done) whether on purpose, or accident (ex. Ecstasy laced with heroin and methamphetamine).
By stating that I am supporting drug use, you are stating YOUR own opinion of that matter. Please support it with facts.

==I also never said that I believe that 8-12th graders should be given access to these drugs. That would just be irresponsible and unheard of. I agree that drugs can be harmful.. this is for SURE, I almost lost my life to them.

"However, many who maybe want to quit can't because the withdrawal phase is too much to handle for most. So they stay addicts the majority of their lives."

==Drugs play off of the reward pathways in our brain. They make you live in the moment, and for the moment. You believe that you hate routine, when really you love routine (doing drugs). I personally have done every drug (with or without meaning to minus PCP and some other things that just dont really need to be done) and believe that I have learned a lot from them. While I regret MANY of the drugs that I have done, I also believe they've helped me take a more introspective look into my life and figure out what I really want to do with it. Yes, people can become addicted to drugs, but that is only if they are not educated about the changes that drugs make to your brain, and cannot recognize these changes. Some people live their lives with a cocaine or heroin addiction all the way through and are some of the most successful people in the world. Famous poets, philosophers, inventors, etc. are all infamous for drug use, abuse, and often times it leads to their downfall.

==I truly believe that however bad they may be, what doesn't kill us doesn't hurt us, AS LONG AS we learn from it.

==Did you know that :

==Drugs where single use is most likely to cause regular use:
1. Alcohol
2. Cigarettes
3.a. Marijuana
3.b. Pill Opiods
4. Benzodiazapines
5. Crack Cocaine
6. Cocaine
7. Stimulants
8. Meth
9. Heroin
10.MDMA
11.Barbiturates
12. Hallucinogens
13. Inhalants
14. PCP
15. LSD

==Drugs where single use is LEAST likely to lead to regular use:
1. LSD
2. PCP
3. Inhalants
4. Barbituates

==(SOURCE: http://www.erowid.org...)

== Please think about that next time you pick up a beer at a party.

=========================================
In closing, I would like to challenge my opponent to answer a few questions for me.

1.Have you ever done any drugs?
2.Do you like drugs?
3.Could you live without drugs?
4.Do you feel that you have a right to tell me not to do drugs, if I have no right to tell you to do them?

==I also ask you to check out www.idoser.com, perhaps you would be interested.
I also would like to post a few definitions that you should MAKE SURE you understand BEFORE answering any more of my questions or responding to my debate.

==Definition of "drug"
(in federal law)
a.any substance recognized in the official pharmacopoeia or formulary of the nation.
b.any substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in humans or other animals.
c.any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.
d.any substance intended for use as a component of such a drug, but not a device or a part of a device.

==Definition of "fact"

a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

==Definition of "opinion"

1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
elphaba1389

Con

1. Have you ever done any drugs?

= using your definition of drugs (any substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in humans or other animals. or any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.) A drug could be anything from a soft drink (due to the caffeine) or something like vicadin (sp?).

but in answer to your question, I take Tylenol SOMETIMES when I have a headache, and I drink Sprite (which has no caffeine), but I drink a coke sometimes. And I take prescription drugs when I am sick.

2. Do you like drugs?

= when I am sick, I like the fact that a z pack and decodrone shot gets me feeling better in 24 hours. Or it makes me get rid of my headache. But half the time, I never take the drug the DR. prescribes me in its entirety. I get better before I have to.

3. Could you live without drugs?

= could I live without tylenol? Yes. I usually do, but if my headache gets bad enough, I take one to make it go away sooner. Could I live without prescription drugs? Depends on what is wrong with me. For me at least, my immune system is so weak that a cold can turn into pneumonia if I don't take medication at the first signs. If I don't take them, I could die. So for me, could I live without drugs? Probably not.

4. Do you feel that you have a right to tell me not to do drugs, if I have no right to tell you to do them?

= i have a right to tell you not to take drugs in an abusive way, I also have the right to tell you not to do psychedelic drugs, as just one dose can kill you (an example being ecstasy). And you have a right to tell me to do them, I can't stop you.

Unfortunately, you are debating in favor of LSD, marijuana, etc. being legalized, government created, and taxed. This is quite a different situation from Tylenol and prescription drugs used only when needed. Not abused drugs.

In your previous arguement you stated:

==Drugs where single use is most likely to cause regular use:
1. Alcohol
2. Cigarettes
3.a. Marijuana
3.b. Pill Opiods
4. Benzodiazapines
5. Crack Cocaine
6. Cocaine
7. Stimulants
8. Meth
9. Heroin
10.MDMA
11.Barbiturates
12. Hallucinogens
13. Inhalants
14. PCP
15. LSD

among these are the same drugs you are debating in favor of creating! Marijuana (#3a), LSD (#15), as well as meth, and many other drugs. I understand that you learned from the experience of doing drugs, it made you a stronger person. And yes, people should be educated in the affects of drugs on the brain so they can recognize the signs of addiction early and try to get help. But should these drugs be legalized, government created, and taxed?! Most definitely not.

"Yes, people can become addicted to drugs, but that is ONLY if they are not educated about the changes that drugs make to your brain, and cannot recognize these changes."

what studies do you have to back up this claim? (other than personal experience), while this statement may apply to your situation, you cannot assume that everyone who is addicted to drugs is like this, since personal experiences vary from person to person. So to say that people become addicted ONLY IF they are not educated about the changes that drugs make to your brain, and cannot recognize these changes is simply an opinion based on what happened to YOU, unless you have studies and statistics to back this claim showing that this applies to a good percentage of addicts, then this statement is null and void when pertaining to drug addicts as a collective body.

"I also never said that I believe that 8-12th graders should be given access to these drugs. That would just be irresponsible and unheard of. I agree that drugs can be harmful.. this is for SURE, I almost lost my life to them."

= I didn't say you did. I gave you those statistics because that is the age in which most are introduced to and begin using/abusing drugs, according to (http://www.nida.nih.gov...;/). Also because you are well aware of the harm of drugs, maybe not to their full affect, but you do have some knowledge. I just graduated, and for the past 3 years our school as well as schools nationwide have pushed drug ed. The junior high even introduced drug ed when I was there, so to not have any knowledge about drugs is fairly difficult. I know this because I have friends in other parts of the country and their schools do the same thing. You aren't completely clueless, you know they are harmful, yet you choose to do them anyways. Now, if you are drugged and take them accidentally, you still know when you are becoming addicted. Or have some idea.

My point is that legalizing drugs is not a good idea. Why would you want to legalize something that is harmful and potentially fatal to an individual?! Now, I understand that ANY drug, whether it be Tylenol or a prescription can be harmful to you when abused; however, legalizing prescription drugs does not justify legalizing harmful, addictive drugs.
Debate Round No. 2
LearnLoveLiveLife

Pro

==In your first argument, you stated:
"Drugs destroy lives, period. Whether you take a small dose or smoke 10 blunts a day, they destroy lives. Those small doses turn into bigger doses as your body needs more to satisfy the need. Back to medical marijuana, those small doses do something for our body, while they may be helping us, they do become addicting. Hence why many people abuse prescription drugs."

==I feel that you missed my point. I am not talking about DRUGS, I am talking about psychedelics. Big difference.

==You also said:
"So for me, could I live without drugs? Probably not."

==Good call, that's what I think most people would say. I know that this is not the same as psychedelic drugs, however, I also know that you can live without psychedelic drugs. There is no reason that if psychedelic drugs were legal, anyone would have to do them.

You:
"i have a right to tell you not to take drugs in an abusive way, I also have the right to tell you not to do psychedelic drugs, as just one dose can kill you (an example being ecstasy). And you have a right to tell me to do them, I can't stop you."

==I am not trying to take drugs in an abusive way. I am trying to take drugs as a means of self exploration, through which I may grow as a person. Psychedelics force you to think… about everything… and they make you find things about yourself that may be subconscious and very spiritual.
==You used ecstasy in your argument.
MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine), most commonly known today by the street name Ecstasy (often abbreviated E, X, or XTC), is a semisynthetic member of the amphetamine class of psychoactive drugs, a subclass of the phenethylamines. MDMA also falls under many other broad categories of substances, including stimulants, psychedelics, and the empathogenic-entactogens.
==The chief executive of the UK Medical Research Council stated that MDMA is "on the bottom of the scale of harm," and was rated to be of lesser concern than alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis, as well as several classes of prescription medications, when examining the harmfulness of twenty popular recreational drugs. The UK study placed great weight on the risk for acute physical harm, the propensity for physical and psychological dependency on the drug, and the negative familial and societal impacts of the drug. Based on these factors, the study placed MDMA at number 18 in the list. (SOURCE: http://www.ecstasy.org...)
==The danger surrounding ecstasy is that it is often mixed with things such as meth, cocaine, speed, heroin, etc. MDMA itself is not a very dangerous drug, however its purity is very questionable on the streets.

You said:
"I understand that you learned from the experience of doing drugs, it made you a stronger person. And yes, people should be educated in the affects of drugs on the brain so they can recognize the signs of addiction early and try to get help. But should these drugs be legalized, government created, and taxed?! Most definitely not."
==I understand that you have not done these drugs, have no experience with them, and therefore cannot fully understand the possible positive side effects. I also understand that "Most definitely not" is a statement completely based off of your own opinion.

==If you believe that LSD is such a horrible drug, try reading this compilation of 8 studies done on the compound. http://www.erowid.org...
In short, it covers:
Positive VS Negative Experiences
Effects on Life
Recent Use
Does legal status effect use?
Context of use
Availability, Quality, and Price

==For your perusal -- U.S. Surgeon General's Actuarial info

The following is a list of deaths by substance for 1990.

Tobacco . . . . . . . . . . . . 360,000 [legal]
Alcohol . . . . . . . . . . . . 130,000 [legal]
Prescribed drugs . . . . . . . 18,675 [legal]
Caffeine . . . . . . . . . . . 5,800 [legal]
Cocaine . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,390 [illegal]
Heroin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,147 [illegal]
Aspirin . . . . . . . . . . . . 986 [legal]
Marijuana . . . . . . . . . . . 0 [illegal]

==Another thing to think about…
How many people are in prison?

=The Department of Justice announced that there are now 1.5 million people in prisons across the United States?

=Who are they?

=What are they in for?

==TYPE OF OFFENSE (Sentenced Pop. Only) - Federal Prisoners

!!!!!!!DRUG Offenses 59.6% !!!!!!! Wtf?

Robbery 9.8%

Property Offenses 5.5%

Extortion, Fraud, Bribery 6.8%

Violent Offenses 2.7%

Firearms, Explosives, Arson 8.6%

White Collar 1.0%

Immigration 2.8%

Courts or Corrections 0.8%

National Security 0.1%

Continuing Criminal Enterprise 0.8%

Miscellaneous 1.5%

==The "Gateway Theory" is a theory that the use of cannabis naturally leads to the use of heroin, cocaine, or other "hard drugs". This theory is often used to explain why cannabis use must remain criminal, despite cannabis use itself being less physically dangerous than many legal activities. Although the Gateway Theory has been repeatedly debunked and discredited by reviews funded by the White House, the Parliament of Britain, and the government of Canada, it continues to be used as an argument in both educational materials and political decisions.

Based on the data from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), formerly named the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, by SAMSHA, the percentage of those who have ever tried marijuana and then ended up using heroin once per month is around 1 in 1000. To explain this further, since the estimated number of monthly heroin users in the United Status in 2001 is 100,000, that is the maximum number of people who can have gone on to use heroin regularly after trying cannabis. Since there are an estimated 83 million people in the US who have ever tried cannabis, this works out to 0.12% (100,000 / 83,300,000).

SOURCE: http://www.erowid.org...

===========
I have no further comments.
elphaba1389

Con

"I am not talking about DRUGS, I am talking about psychedelics. Big difference."

===Definition of "drug"
(in federal law)
a. any substance recognized in the official pharmacopoeia or formulary of the nation.
b. any substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in humans or other animals.
c. any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.
d. any substance intended for use as a component of such a drug, but not a device or a part of a device.

based on the definition of "drug" that YOU gave me, psychedelics ARE drugs.

according to <http://cdc.gov...;, drug and alcohol continue to be the 2nd leading cause of injury death in the united states. While you say that the individual may be learning something from taking the drugs, the potential for harm to themselves and others is definitely there.

while the individual may be learning something from the action of partaking of the drug, why would you want our government to create something that countless studies have shown does more harm than good. You were very lucky to have learned from the experience and still be living, things could have been alot worse.

Conclusion:

Yes, drugs do have SOME positive effects on the body; however, they are harmful. Studies have shown this, I myself have seen it in person, as well as the effect that it has on families and loved ones. Just because someone has a good experience with drugs does not make it alright for the government to create, legalize, and tax them!

Drug offenses count for more than 50% of the prisoners in jail, but again, this doesn't mean we should legalize them. If murder equated to over 50% of all the prisoners in jail, would we want to legalize that?! I mean, either way, you are harming someone. The only difference is with drug use, you are affecting them gradually, instead in immediately.

So my answer to this debate? No. Definitely not. Not only is it bad for the individual, but what kind of image would that present to the rest of the world? The United States - the land of the free, the brave, and the completely legal pot heads. =/

Oh yeah, because we ALL want our children to be able to buy pot without getting into trouble! I think not!
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Chuckles 8 years ago
Chuckles
Sorry for the double post, but i just had to jump on this:
"I also have the right to tell you not to do psychedelic drugs, as just one dose can kill you (an example being ecstasy)."
Ecstasy won't kill you in one dose, just like most if not all psychedelic drugs. Psychedelics are some of the safer drugs, compared to stimulants, depressants, etc. For many of these drugs the average dose is hundreds or thousands of times smaller than a lethal dose, there is no worry about the drug killing you. Be smart and be safe when you use drugs.
Posted by Chuckles 8 years ago
Chuckles
"Marijuana leaves are good for you." - Rezzealaux
Marijuana BUDS are good for you :D
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
Voted PRO

4L owned elphaba1389 throughout with the facts. Excellent argument, good debate.

"The United States - the land of the free, the brave, and the completely legal pot heads. =/"

funny... All things considered, it could be a lot worse.

"Oh yeah, because we ALL want our children to be able to buy pot without getting into trouble!"

No, *I* want to be able to buy pot without getting into trouble. I don't have any kids;)
Posted by Casiopia 9 years ago
Casiopia
4L's, your stats were eye opening to say the least.
Yours were federal, here are some state prison stats...less drug offenders than Federal Prison, but all this information in regards to the prison population is sobering(no pun intended)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov...
Summary findings
On June 30, 2007
– 2,299,116 prisoners were held in federal or state prisons or in local jails – an increase of 1.8% from year end 2006, less than the average annual growth of 2.6% from 2000-2006.
– 1,528,041 sentenced prisoners were under state or federal jurisdiction.
– there were an estimated 509 sentenced prisoners per 100,000 U.S. residents – up from 501 at year end 2006.
– the number of women under the jurisdiction of state or federal prison authorities increased 2.5% from yearend 2006, reaching 115,308, and the number of men rose 1.5%, totaling 1,479,726.
At midyear 2007 there were 4,618 black male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,747 Hispanic male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 Hispanic males and 773 white male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 white males.

In 2004 there were an estimated 633,700 State prisoners serving time for a violent offense. State prisons also held an estimated 265,600 property offenders and 249,400 drug offenders.
Most serious offense Percent of sentenced
State inmates
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1995 2004
Total 100% 100%
Violent 47 52
Property 23 21
Drug 22 20
Public-order 9 7
Posted by LearnLoveLiveLife 9 years ago
LearnLoveLiveLife
Please do not allow personal opinions to effect how you vote in this debate... Read the arguements, and realize that I stated many facts and backed up my arguement with factual information. My arguement was well established with logos, my opponent based almost her entire arguement on pathos. (i.e. I used facts and statistics, she said how she feels about the situation.)
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
There was a lot of filler stuff in this debate.

The resolution specified Psychedelics. Most drugs are not classified as such.
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
Wow, I really like this.

I'm getting a lesson on drugs WITH STATISTICS GASP @.@
Posted by LearnLoveLiveLife 9 years ago
LearnLoveLiveLife
I didn't say they did did I?
I'm just pointing out their addictiveness.
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
Yo, LearnLoveLife:

Most of the drugs on that list don't count as psychedelics.
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