The Instigator
spacenights
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Josh_b
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Should religious indoctrination be legally classified as child abuse?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Josh_b
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/23/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 875 times Debate No: 53180
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (1)

 

spacenights

Pro

I believe that forcing a child to believe a particular religion as factual should be legally considered as child abuse. If the child wants to learn about the religion, then it is totally fine. However, if the child is forced to by a parent, guardian, or other, then it is wrong. I don't want to turn this into an Atheist vs. Theist debate.
Round 1 is for acceptance
Round 2-4 is arguments
Round 5 is closing statements.
I wish the best of luck to my opponent.
Josh_b

Con

You have burdon of proof.

The differences between religion and culture are blurry. Will you be able to speak both against teach religion as a culture, and culture as the commons social standard and expectations of the individuals who participate in that culture.

The beliefs and teachings of religious values are more beneficial to society than the secular culture.
A few of the Religious beliefs beiing
Respect
Caring for Others
Commitment
Scrafice

Versus Secular beliefs that include
Self indulgance
distrust of others
Individual seperatism
Personal gain

All things moral come from a religious stance. The ability to do something and the ability to know the negative personal feelings and consequences that go along with it is the beginning of religion. Sharing the experiences of yourself and others benifits society.
I look forward to this Debate.
Debate Round No. 1
spacenights

Pro

I am not denying that many morals come from religion. But you don't have to believe the religion to believe those morals. Secular people know what it means to be kind, care for others, and be committed. The way I see it, as long as a child believes those morals, then all is good. Believing an entire religion and believing in the morals of said religion are two different things. There is nothing wrong with teaching the morals to your children, but forcing the entire religion down their throats is when there is a problem. Also, I would like for you to state your source of the secular beliefs you mentioned.

I suppose I am mainly talking about parents berating their kids for not believing their religion. If a child clearly states that he/she wants to be of a different religion or none at all, I think his/her parents should not be legally allowed to force the child to believe a religion. If anything, forcing your child into a religion will make him/her dislike the religion even more. I am not saying that teaching religion is bad. But if you force the child into believing it, then that is not teaching, it's indoctrination.

Also, morality does not come from only religion. A lot of my family is Christian. Growing up, I didn't hear Bible verses or stories all the time. The only times we ever went to church was for a funeral. I learned about morality myself. If I treated someone bad, I had the feeling of "How would I feel if they did that to me?" I didn't learn any of this from the Bible.

I await your next argument.
Josh_b

Con

I am not denying that many morals come from religion. But you don't have to believe the religion to believe those morals. Secular people know what it means to be kind, care for others, and be committed. The way I see it, as long as a child believes those morals, then all is good.

-I'm saying that religion is defined by the morals it entails. I'm not going into any sub arguments descering the differences between religions.

Believing an entire religion and believing in the morals of said religion are two different things.
-Are they? What part of the entire religion is different from the morals that it teaches?
Perhaps I could argue that because the morals taught in religious context are applied to a trancendant cause, the morals hold more value to the individual than morals that do not have a trancendant cause.

There is nothing wrong with teaching the morals to your children, but forcing the entire religion down their throats is when there is a problem. Also, I would like for you to state your source of the secular beliefs you mentioned.
- I suppose this is partly true. Forcing being the operative word that I'm having trouble with. I as an adult am forced to send my children to school or go to jail. Knowing the consequences of allowing my children to skip school whenever they please, I do not take lightly the days when they fake sick or try to oversleep. They must go to school or else my well being is in jeapordy. And by that reasoning I "force" them to go to school. How much better is school than religious gatherings and moral teachings?
Suppose I do allow them to skip, what then? Perhaps they won't become vagrants, but I shutter to conisder the life they will live if they do become that. In a religous context, I believe that there are eternal consequences for poor life choices and eternal rewards for making good choices. These consequences are tied to morality taught through religion. For the source of Secular Beliefs, I could probably choose any number of music videos. At this time I'll provide this one.
https://www.youtube.com...

I suppose I am mainly talking about parents berating their kids for not believing their religion. If a child clearly states that he/she wants to be of a different religion or none at all, I think his/her parents should not be legally allowed to force the child to believe a religion. If anything, forcing your child into a religion will make him/her dislike the religion even more. I am not saying that teaching religion is bad. But if you force the child into believing it, then that is not teaching, it's indoctrination.

-On what grounds do you berate your children? Not cleaning thier rooms? Lying? Stealing? Cheating? You only get one shot and you can't exactly wait until a situation like cheating on your spouse comes up on its own. What part of the religion are you talking about that makes it any different from any other thing that you teach your kids about living a productive life. I'm sure there are a lot of grown ups that are really glad that their parents forced them into cleaning thier rooms. Maybe some of them still don't like it, but I see that a majority of people I know understand the value of having a clean house. Maybe I'm not read up on my psycology journals, but in what way do you force someone to have thoughts or beliefs that govern the way they act. Some people grow up and don't follow thier parents way of life, this isn't tied to religion. It's tied to the security that the child feels with his/her parents. A parent practicing religion correctly is going to provide a good example to thier children. Maybe you are concerned by parents who do not provide a good example for thier children in general.
-I was in wal mart the other day and I heard a woman say "Get over here right now you little peice of ****!" I had to stop say "Excuse me lady, that kid is following your example, and if you don't like it look in the mirror cause you need jesus." I said Jesus, but I think I may have really meant, "something that allows you to see the value of your own life." which many people have found through Christ


Also, morality does not come from only religion. A lot of my family is Christian. Growing up, I didn't hear Bible verses or stories all the time. The only times we ever went to church was for a funeral. I learned about morality myself. If I treated someone bad, I had the feeling of "How would I feel if they did that to me?" I didn't learn any of this from the Bible.

-That's funny that you would state that you follow the golden rule. "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you." It's like you understand your religion but you are afraid to define it by the actions it entails.For this argument, I'm specifically talking about morals defining a religion. For instance, if someone asked you if your were religious, wouldn't that be a different question than "Are you a christian?"


I await your next argument.

Fair enough, here it is.
Debate Round No. 2
spacenights

Pro

I concede from this debate. Josh's points were well thought and well made and if I keep going any longer, I might keep embarrassing myself. Good job, Josh.
Josh_b

Con

Thank you for creating this debate.

Please give conduct points to SpaceNights so long as he doesn't forfiet.
Debate Round No. 3
spacenights

Pro

spacenights forfeited this round.
Josh_b

Con

continued support for this argument.
Debate Round No. 4
spacenights

Pro

spacenights forfeited this round.
Josh_b

Con

send to voting
Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Introducing children to fantasy type Bible tales that have delusional or nonsensical outcomes and answers is one form of attempt to draw them into a lifetime of such delusional thinking.
Keep doing this for the formative years of a child (4 to 10) without access to outside skepticism and you end up with one Severely Deluded Individual.
I've met many such delusional teenagers, even had the job of training one and had to report him as not being worthy of employment, due to inability to understand even the basics.
There are many like this on DDO, as I've had to debate one recently and even explaining the basic concepts of science is like trying to demonstrate genuine evidence to a Brick.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Actually, according to some of the contact I've had with people coming out of Islam in Islamic regimes, where some of their communications with us have been cut off and we don't know if they are still alive, as leaving Islam is still punished by execution, but, in such regimes, all communities have such schools that isolate young children and teach nothing else but Islam and all children's curiosity is answered with nonsensical Islamic based answers.
Thus there is a whole generation of extremely dumb, Islamic fundamentalists being trained as we type.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Though non-traumatic indoctrination requires isolation from outside influences that may draw a child's attention and imagination away from the set plan/discipline, so Home Schooling is often used to achieve this aim or as the Church Of Scientology practice, all children go to a special training camp where nothing else is taught but their concepts and contrived answers to children's questions.

Sending a child to any public school introduces them to questions and answers that detract from such closed indoctrination practices, so then trauma or punishment becomes useful for deterring them from considering other views.

There are a few church groups, especially Creationist groups that practice closed non-traumatic indoctrination.

No Atheist groups ever have any indoctrination practices, all recommend public schooling to give a child a broad spectrum of ideologies.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Yes!
Brainwashing is mental abuse, because that is what essentially Indoctrination is.
You can brainwash without inducing trauma, you can make children intently interested and hijack their natural childish curiosity and answer all their questions in a deceptive way and produce brainwashed children who will be incapable of learning real knowledge later in life.
So Indoctrination can be achieved without trauma, but the result is the same.
A child and essentially an adult with significantly reduced Intelligence.
Posted by Josh_b 2 years ago
Josh_b
So, I think we should say that trauma induced training should be considered child abuse regardless of it's purpose.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
We often had those mentally abused little girls staying overnight as their parents went out to parties (immature parents), these girls were already showing signs of serious psychological problems, which now after my studies into psychology, I realize were definitely stemming from their indoctrination into their mother's fantasy world.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Little girls indoctrinated into belief that they must be beautiful and win pageants is child abuse.
Something both my wife and I refused to do as we watched many neighbors indoctrinating their daughters.
Our daughter behaved and dressed like a boy for the first 10 years until a boy she liked at school told her that unless she wore a dress, he wouldn't go with her, so she started wearing skirts to satisfy his ego. She never really liked wearing dresses, and felt more comfortable in pants.

One night she told me about something he asked her to do and I informed that it appears that the only reason he wanted her to wear a skirt to school is to show off to his friends (she is very pretty) and demonstrate his dominance over her.
The very next day she wore pants to school and never wore a dress to school except for sport which requires a skirt by regulation.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
You are correct in that Indoctrination is not tied to religion, it could also be tied to any belief system.
Though this debate has tied it to religion.

Though Indoctrination is child abuse, regardless of whether it be Superstition, such as religions or non-supestition, such as Atheism.

You cannot indoctrinate a child into Skepticism because skepticism requires an open critical mind.
I let my children be skeptical of everything, even my own teachings to them.

To Indoctrinate them into a narrow minded position of blind belief is child abuse in any case.
Though Pro reneged his opportunity to put up a decent fight.
Posted by Josh_b 2 years ago
Josh_b
Indoctrination is not specifically tied to religion. Isn't indoctrination one of the reasons why so many people think the military is bad? Because it brainwashes people in to a certain way of life and thinking? Here's a little video (a couple of videos) related to the slave indoctrination of many Hollywood actors.
https://www.youtube.com...

I linked to video 20, but 24 is truly about the monarch programming that is being used on many people all over the world. Indoctrination of this nature probably should be considered abuse.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Indoctrination is not Teaching, it is Indoctrinating.
There is a big difference.
Teaching is good and a good teacher will allow children to Question the teachings to make up their own mind.
Indoctrination does not allow the children to Question, they are punished if they question an indoctrinator.
Also Indoctrination uses more persuasive brainwashing tactics than teaching and thus it gets the children t believe or Else.
This lowers the children's capability to question and to think rationally.
Thus it lowers their rational Intelligence, and produces mindless sycophants.
What parent would want their children to become less intelligent and mindless followers of superstitious nonsense.
Only fundamentalist parents, which is why they are evidently Sick and need treatment.
Because by Indoctrinating their children, they are mentally abusing them.

So Indoctrination is far more serious than teaching.

Children are allowed freedom to question and disagree in teaching, thus their minds remain Open.
No such allowances exist in Indoctrination, thus it produces Closed Minded, Lunatics.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
spacenightsJosh_bTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro could have put up a good fight, but either lost confidence or started with the wrong direction and data. Pro's argument was vague and missed many points a more mature debater would have made. Pro needs to do a lot more research, but also forfeited, early, giving Con a conduct point as well.