The Instigator
bigwigaustin
Con (against)
The Contender
Socialistrgla78785650013
Pro (for)

Should the Democrats have caused a government shutdown regarding the Dream Act?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Debate Round Forfeited
Socialistrgla78785650013 has forfeited round #4.
Our system has not yet updated this debate. Please check back in a few minutes for more options.
Time Remaining
00days00hours00minutes00seconds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/20/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 251 times Debate No: 106922
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

bigwigaustin

Con

I am against the Democrats causing a government shutdown over the Dream act.
Here is format that will be used for this debate:
Round 1: State your stance
Round 2: Provide Opening Statements and Arguments
Round 3: Provide Further Arguments Along with Counterarguments for Round 2
Round 4: Provide Counterarguments for Round 3 and Give your Closing Statements.

I look forward to this debate and hope my opponent and I can have a fun, friendly, and educational debate on this topic.
Socialistrgla78785650013

Pro

As a Sanders - Wing Democrat, I think the Democrats should shut down the Government in order to protect DACA.
Debate Round No. 1
bigwigaustin

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this challenge and look forward to this debate. That said, I will now proceed with my opening statements and arguments.

As I stated previously, I do not believe that the Democrats should have caused a government shutdown regarding the Dream Act. I will clarify why the Democrats are the ones that have caused this to transpire, and not the Republicans, as I did see some controversy concerning this topic in the comments section of this debate, and I would like to remain as transparent as possible. The Democrats are essentially holding a "political ransom" at this current time. They are preventing the government from "re-opening" until the Republicans change their stance on the Dream Act. The Democrats are the party that will not vote for a new government spending extension bill to be passed(I am aware that 4 Republicans voted against it and 5 Democrats voted for it, but the vast majority of the Democrats voted against it and the vast majority of Republicans for it). I'll clarify on why exactly this is wrong further on in my arguments, but for now I simply wanted to point out to whom the fault for the current government shutdown should lay upon.

The government shutdown has a myriad of consequences that come with it. These consequences are:
* Active-duty troops are not paid and most lose contact with family members
* Many national parks and monuments close
* The country loses much economic value(the 16-day government shutdown in 2013 cost $24 billion in economic activity)
* And much more, which you can read about in some of my sources

This and so much more is what the Democrats are willing to put at stake simply because President Trump did not compromise on the Dream Act. Not only does the Democrats' response to Trump's stance on the Dream Act cause a myriad of consequences, but it also does something more. It reflects very badly upon the Democrats, and this very thing could result in a major political swing in the 2018 election process if the Democrats don't quickly find a solution to this problem.

In a very select few instances would it ever be even considerable to cause a government shutdown. This is most certainly not one of them. After Obama set up the Dream Act, the amount of illegal immigrants surged to hundreds of thousands extremely quickly. The illegal immigrant population costs American taxpayers nearly $150 billion per year, and the vast majority of these illegal immigrants came because they had children that would be protected under the Dream Act, as statistics show a huge surge in either unaccompanied children or children with accompanying adults crossing the Us-Mexico border. This is causing a huge burden on American taxpayers and the American government. The Democrats in the Senate should not be putting the well-being of Americans(especially that of American troops) on the line for the Dream Act.

Sources:
https://qz.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.foxnews.com...
https://fairus.org...
http://thehill.com...
https://www.investors.com...
Socialistrgla78785650013

Pro

As I have stated before, I believe the Democrats should fight for DACA.

One reason is DACA is good for the economy.

The U.S would lose about $460 billion over the next 10 years without it.

80% of them have driver's licenses and half are organ donors.

90% have jobs.

We can't just lose 700,000 jobs.

Also, they are less likely to commit crimes. the right - wing CATO institute, "estimate[s] that DREAMers had an incarceration rate of 0.98 percent in 2015 compared to a native-born incarceration rate of 1.12 percent"

They are hard working as well, most have a GPA of 3.5 or better, they are smart people.

Half of the Fortune 500 companies in Connecticut today were founded by immigrants or their children. Immigrants make up 21 percent of all entrepreneurs in this state, although they're only 13.7 percent of the state's population.

Also, this in my opinion is a Trump shutdown, because he was presented a bi-partisan bill said he would support it then flip-flopped.

Sources:

http://www.newsweek.com...

http://www.courant.com...
Debate Round No. 2
bigwigaustin

Con

In this Round, my opponent and I will counter each other's Round 2 arguments.

My opponent, surprisingly, did not offer any arguments regarding the government shutdown, which is what the entirety of this debate is about. I would highly appreciate it if my opponent would at least defend his side along with his counterarguments in Round 3. This debate is not about whether or not we should keep the Dream Act; it is about whether or not the Dream Act was a big enough issue that we should have a government shutdown because of it. I will counter his arguments for DACA, but I would prefer that he talks about the government shutdown in and of itself in this Round.

My opponent stated that the US would lose $460 billion in the next 10 years without DACA. This may be true, but is only an estimate based on speculation, and he did not include the fact that illegal immigrants cost American taxpayers around $150 billion PER YEAR, with that mostly being spent on DACA individuals. Obviously, from an economic standpoint, DACA is not the way to go.

I could care less about the crime rate for DACA individuals. This is not about crime, or even if DACA should be repealed. It is about whether or not the Democrats should have caused a government shutdown because of DACA's possible repeal. The same goes for their education levels.

Millions of people are still unemployed in the United States and are actively looking for jobs, so I sincerely doubt that finding Americans to take the jobs would be an issue.

This isn't a Trump shutdown. While Trump may have "flip-flopped" on a previous statement of his, that provides absolutely no reason to bring the government into a shutdown. Who was for the shutdown? The Senate Democrats. Who voted for the shutdown? The Senate Democrats. Whose fault is it that we are in a government shutdown? You guessed it - The Senate Democrats.

Sources:
https://fairus.org...
http://money.cnn.com...
Socialistrgla78785650013

Pro

I want to start off debunking the claim saying that Illegal immigration costs us $150 billion per year, first off FAIR is a hate group that inspires hate crimes.

Here is an excerpt from the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) that I'll cite at the bottom of this argument.

FAIR leaders have ties to white supremacist groups and eugenicists and have made many racist statements. Its advertisements have been rejected because of racist content. FAIRs founder, John Tanton, has expressed his wish that America remain a majority-white population: a goal to be achieved, presumably, by limiting the number of nonwhites who enter the country. One of the groups main goals is upending the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which ended a decades-long, racist quota system that limited immigration mostly to northern Europeans. FAIR President Dan Stein has called the Act a "mistake."

The Democrats need to do this, because they promised to the American people that DACA will be protected. They also are the ones who want a budget. Months of C.R's don't work. We need a budget. We need to protect 800,000 DREAMERS. Also the Democrats, are the ones who care about CHIP. They are the ones fighting to make the CHIP funding permanent, not the Republicans. They are in power for the past year the only major piece of legislation they have passed was the tax bill, which hasn't even gone into effect yet. Also, McConnell should know where the president stands. This is purely the fault of bad leadership and politics as usual, which Trump claimed to be against. No human is illegal, the Democrats are fighting for human rights. Like I stated earlier before the Shutdown they promised to defend DACA. Their base are really passionate, and this is a bipartisan issue over 80% of people want protections for the Dreamers. We tried a house sit in with gun control and that didn't work. At this point, a crisis needs to be invoked to get a functioning government.

Sources:

https://www.splcenter.org...
Debate Round No. 3
bigwigaustin

Con

This is the final round of the debate, so my opponent and I will provide our counterarguments to each other's Round 3 statements and provide final closing statements.

My opponent seems to think that because other people labeled FAIR a "hate group", all of the statements they express are automatically false. I'm afraid this is simply not the case. Many sources report the same exact information that I stated, and I will list a few of these sources below. I intentionally left out the fact that my opponent included Newsweek as one of his main sources in my previous argument and gave him the benefit of the doubt, but since he has resorted to completely tossing out my arguments simply because some people have labeled FAIR as a "hate group", I will briefly discuss Newsweek. Newsweek has made a myriad of bogus claims. Among these are:
* Ivanka Trump "plagiarizing herself", even though this isn't even possible.
* Putting out magazines calling Hillary Clinton "Madam President"
* Falsely reporting the Polish first lady did not shake President Trump's hand
I recommend my opponent checks his sources before he resorts to petty claims about my own.

The government shutdown is essentially a political ransom. This is not the result of "bad leadership" by Trump, as my opponent claims. This is the result of Democrats in the Senate being stuck up so much that they care more about illegal immigrants than they do about American people, specifically our active military, who will not be paid one penny during the government shutdown.

If the Democrats were "fighting for human rights", as my opponent claims, they would not be taking away the rights of citizens of the USA and fighting for the nonexistent rights of illegal immigrants.

I believe that throughout this debate, I have thoroughly made my argument for the American citizens and against this government shutdown that the Democrats in the Senate have caused to occur. This wasn't an argument on "Should we repeal DACA or not." This was an argument on whether or not the Democrats should have caused a government shutdown and essentially showed that they care more about the illegal immigrants coming in than the people of America. I believe I have clearly made my case for the American people. I thoroughly enjoyed this debate and would like to thank my opponent for participating with me in this debate regarding this highly contentious topic. With this I close my final counterarguments and closing statements.

Sources:
https://fairus.org...
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com...
http://thehill.com...
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com...
https://www.nbcnews.com...
https://gop.com...
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bigwigaustin 1 month ago
bigwigaustin
As a short update to my Round 4 post, I would like to point out that the Democrats themselves have now even admitted that their choice to cause a government shutdown was a bad idea and they are now voting in favor of the new financial bill.
Posted by ILikePie5 1 month ago
ILikePie5
@MRAAJ

Yes, that is a main reason. The compromise was to fund the entire border wall in exchange for DACA, but the problem was that DACA has nothing to do with the Budget Bill, and Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader, a Democrat, refused to negotiate until the last minute.
Posted by MRAAJ 1 month ago
MRAAJ
Fair enough, British media editors are just calling it a political blame game at the moment. From I've understood is that the Democrats want care packages for undocumented immigrants, whereas Reps want the wall, hence that's partially the cause of this bill delay, correct?
Posted by ILikePie5 1 month ago
ILikePie5
@Socialist

The Republicans delayed it because the Democrats refused to agree to the Budget Bill!! And since neither party wanted a shutdown, they agreed to a temporary budget bill. DACA is unconstitutional to begin with, and for Democrats to require that within any budget bill having nothing to do with the budget is ludicrous.
Posted by ILikePie5 1 month ago
ILikePie5
@MRAAJ

For a bill to pass in the Senate a simple majority is needed, so 51/100 votes, for 50+VP/100 votes. However, before the vote can take place, there needs to be debate. The debates and speeches can go on forever, until a senator invokes Cloture. Cloture, however requires 60 Senators. Until that threshold is made, debates and filibusters go on like Ted Cruz's did. In this case, for the Budget Bill to be passed, it requires Cloture, meaning 60 Senators, which is hard for the Republicans to do because there are 49 Democratic Senators, of which at least 45 refuse to vote for Cloture, unless DACA is part of the Bill.

DJT has nothing to do with the Legislative Process in Congress. Of course, he can recommend certain things as he is the leader of the Republican Party, and try to convince the Democrats, but the Democrats, especially a good 40 of them outright refuse to approve anything supported by Trump. Clear case of obstruction. As for bias, there is no argument for the Democrats. They had the capability to pass the Bill in September alongside the Republicans, but they refused to do so.
Posted by Socialistrgla78785650013 1 month ago
Socialistrgla78785650013
Also, I want to add, I think this is The Republicans fault, they could have passed a budget months ago, the GOP deliberately delayed it to get a DACA advantage.
Posted by MRAAJ 1 month ago
MRAAJ
21 hours?! Why did he need to do that for!

I'm not there but it seems your being slightly bias, ie surely DT could have been more enforcing and active within is own constitution. He seems to be prioritising his own brand instead of focusing on his responsibilities. But then again il get back to you once I've read more about this.
Posted by ILikePie5 1 month ago
ILikePie5
@MRAAJ

Yes, government shutdowns have happened before. Most recently it was in 2013, when my Senator Ted Cruz went on a 21 hour filibuster.

A government shutdown is when the government runs out of money, because a budget hasn't been passed by Congress. Each new fiscal year starts in September/October, and that is when the Budget Bill is passed. However, this time around, because of Democratic opposition to a new full fiscal year bill, a short term bill was passed multiple times. Now, the Democrats claim that the new budget extension is ludicrous as it doesn't cover DACA, a very important immigration issue. As a result, as a result, a new budget bill couldn't be passed, nor could a short term bill. Therefore the government shutdown. When this does happen, federal employees (not high members i.e. Senators, Reps, etc) don't get paid because the U.S. Doesn't have the money to pay them. In addition, National Parks get shut because they are government funded. The military also doesn't get paid. Democrats want to keep obstructing for political gain.
Posted by MRAAJ 1 month ago
MRAAJ
Because I'm from London, I've only just heard about the government shutdown, can somebody explain what's happened? Has this sort of thing occurred before?
Posted by Nd2400 1 month ago
Nd2400
It not all the Democratic fault. It also trump and the GOP. They all share the blame not just one party...
This debate has 0 more rounds before the voting begins. If you want to receive email updates for this debate, click the Add to My Favorites link at the top of the page.