Should the bible be law for the US?
Debate Rounds (3)
Peter 2:18: 'Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.'
New law: Slavery is legal along with beating slaves.
There's not much to say on this one really, to summarize the fear, and therefore belief, in God is enough for slaves to submit to their masters. And obviously, this teaching of an all-loving God cannot be completed unless we bring back the slavery and abuse that this country was built on! The question is, do we put the ancestors of those released back into slavery or take them from other countries, the choice is yours!
Timothy 2:12 - 'I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.'
New law: No woman can be in authority over a man or boy and cannot teach one anything. (possibly regardless of age)
This would mean every female teacher, professor, CEO, manager, small business owner and even possibly mothers must be fired and punished for teaching or having authority over a man. Granted, if you think that this only counts for adult men and woman that can narrow down my list, but that would still mean this country would lose all female university/college professors for teaching men, all women in careers that put them slightly financially or higher up than any man/men, all women who own even small businesses that hire men, all female CEOs, I could go on all day. Furthermore, as specific age isn't specified), you could 'play it safe' and assume it means all men and women of any age this law applies to. In that case, all mothers, female family members/guardians and teachers who have taught children to walk talk, their ABCs, how to write, etc, have broken God's laws and need to be punished. That would also mean, that it would have to be the men who stay at home to teach their sons and therefore, unless handouts are given to families with sons, the woman would have to earn the money. BUT, and here's the major problem, women can't move up the job ladder or earn more than men, so women would A) Be only allowed in jobs below men which would obviously be near minimum wage as not all men are capable at being CEOs or B) The government would have to make an exception and allow women to own companies if they only hire women. So, this would kinda change the entire country to something resembling a '1984' style society.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29- 'If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives' (I know it's Old testament but it was just too interesting to leave out!)
New Law - If an unmarried virgin is raped, she must marry and cannot ever divorce her rapist.
I really don't know what to write about this one. Yes, if you choose to ignore the Old Testament, still considered part of God's word may I add, yes, if you call some of the things God inspired untrue because they're 'too old' then you can skip right past this one! So, what I'm asking is, would you be happy to allow this law to be part of the new constitution because it's God's word? I'm not going to waste too much time on this one because you know, 'This part of the Holy Lord's word doesn't count because I say so' is probably going to bubble up.
To finish, because this went on for longer than I expected, I'll just add a couple rather stupid and/or pointless laws that would also be put in place,
Leviticus 18:22 (and other anti-homosexual chapters)- Punish people with death because of what genitals the person they fall in love with has
Leviticus 19:19 - People who plant two types of seed in a field and wear clothing with a blend of materials must be punished.
Now, I'm not attacking your religion or insulting God, I'm just quoting the Bible and interpreting its effect on modern day life and society. I respect your beliefs and I apologize if any of the previous offended you in any way. If it did, please point it out to be and I will try to refrain from it or explain why I said it. I admit I'm rather blunt but I would like a good debate of opinions without insults or swearing. Looking forward to hearing from you! Maisie Torr
Alright, with that said I'd like to start off by attempting to clarify and Lord willing refute a couple of your arguments.
Let's start with the argument on slavery in the Bible. When the Bible talks about slavery, we need to realize that this is not the type of cruel bondage we think of today. Actually the form of slavery mentioned in Holy Scripture is quite the opposite. The slavery back then was almost always temporary in which the slave would serve his master faithfully in order to pay off a previous debt he owed, make up for a misdemeanor, provide for his family, or maybe to just survive. In return the master would take care of his slave and provide for his basic needs. So as we can see, the type of slavery they had back then was much different than the type we have in our minds today. I also saw that you rightfully brought up Peter 2:18 in your argument. Let me just point out that the Bible is clear that all people are one in Jesus Christ and he alone is worthy to be Master. This verse is given to Christian slaves telling them to be joyful in their persecutions and serve their masters well. If Jesus Christ came from Heaven humbled himself to serve his creation only to be nailed on a cross by the ones he loved, then shouldn't we also do as he did?
Next we have the belief that the Bible is sexist. I'm not saying that you personally hold that belief but many people do. Let me start by saying that Scripture is clear that men and women are both created equal "For there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female for you are all one in Christ", but you can be equal and yet have different roles. God did indeed create man to be in authority and work to provide and love their wives and children, while He made women to stay home and nurture children to show love and care to their husbands and kids. A good representation of this is when the Bible says to Honor the Son as much as the Father and the Son is equal to the Father, and yet Jesus obeyed and served his Father even though they were equal. So when we see in Scripture that a Wife is to submit to a husband just think of God the Son submitting to his equal God the Father. One last thing I'd like to point out is that Jesus himself greatly respected women when he honored his blessed mother, was great friends and loved Mary Magdalena, sat down and talked with a Samaritan woman, and even saved an Adulteresses life and forgave her of her sins.
Another passage I'm glad you brought up was Leviticus 19:19. As far as I can tell this verse was mainly a test of obedience. It makes sense that you could test someone's obedience by giving them a law that doesn't seem to make any sense doesn't it?
And Last but not least we have homosexuals. It is true that we Christians consider homosexuality a sin. I could probably get into another whole debate on this issue if your interested, but I will say that yes gays were killed just like murderers, rapists exec. back then.
Once again thanks for this pleasure and I'll await your response:)
Firstly, as the question is about applying the Bible to today to replace laws, what it was like in Jesus' time is rather irrelevant. We've seen people take advantage of passages of the bible in the past to suit their own means, and without historical context this can easily be manipulated again! For example, when America tried to abolish slavery, some Southern states rejected it because slavery was in the bible. Opposition to the civil rights movement in the 1960s used the slavery in the bible to try and stop black people gaining equal rights to white. No matter what slavery was like when Jesus was around, the Bible still allows slavery and in a way glamourises it, telling slaves to fear their masters, which could easily connote God/Jesus believing that one type of person is better than another. If God believed that everyone was equal, why does the bible allow the ownership of humans under others which even the Bible itself refers to as masters. How slaves were treated when Jesus was around has no effect on modern day because slavery still HAS to happen if the bible becomes law no matter if it's for one year, seven years or a lifetime; and aswell as the moral issues slavery brings, we must ask ourselves where the slaves will come from! Will we, as the Bible states in Leviticus 25:44, that they will come from the countries around them? If, for example, we take people from Canada, The Commonwealth and the UN will have to invade which will cause all alliances with other countries to fall and these illegal acts will certainly lead to conflict and even nuclear war! Furthermore, even if we use slaves from America, for example, immigrants could just about fit with the bible, other countries would have to step in to defend the people's human rights which will end with the same result! Some passages of the Bible are completely and utterly unusable in modern day society because they are, no offence meant, primitive and oppressive.
Your second point, of women and men having different roles I also disagree with, as gender roles are damaging to society and have next to no evidence that they are needed.They limit achievement in both genders, boys not pursuing art, music, drama or stay-at-home roles whilst women are less likely to pursue careers at all, especially science, maths and military. Furthermore, children who don't conform are bullied and boys can struggle to express emotions due to stereotypes. Can you really encourage young children to conform to these damaging roles simply because of what's between their legs? Again, your point has nothing to do with the question because it describes how things were in Jesus' time but doesn't explain how this would affect the laws of the US. In today's society, as I've said, we no longer live under the primitive assumption that women are less than men and we have progressed to allow women to excel in fields of science, maths and every other necessary aspect of the world. With strict gender roles, we wouldn't have discovered plutonium, radium, the polar area chart, molecule structure of DNA and so much more as quickly as we did. Moving back to the original question, should the Bible be law for the US, today we would have to get rid of all women in authority which would mean a devastating lack of people in ALL career paths which would result in extreme economic crisis in America as well as across the world seeing as America is the world's only remaining superpower, the richest country in the world as well as owning the only currency you can purchase oil in! It doesn't matter if you, or anyone in fact, thinks women shouldn't work! They do, that the removal of all women from the American workforce which are above a man is completely impossible and would destroy the world's economy and is just a ridiculous thought all together!
Finally, I would like to focus on the 10 commandments, as these are the base laws of Christianity they would no doubt be the base laws of the religion. Firstly, the first commandment would have to get rid of freedom of religion. This would mean everyone would have to convert to Christianity and those who refuse to need to be punished. This would remove the 'land of the free' manifesto that surrounds it and will spark negative attention from other countries and could cause broken alliances, riots in streets, a totalitarian government needed to control any attempts at praying to a different religion and even wars sparked with nations who want religious freedom because America would become similar to the Islamic State only Christian. Also, all firefighters, doctors, paramedics, police officers would have to not work on Sunday despite any disasters that happen they would not be able to intervene. Furthermore, those who need carers, people suffering from illnesses that need permanent treatment and those in intensive care have to be left alone for one day a week which could kill them. Lastly, children who report abusive parents, children who run away from home and people who feel the natural feeling of jealousy along with any other of the deadly sins would have to be punished.
To conclude, no matter how many 'better' laws the Bible would implicate, slavery, oppression of women and even the Ten Commandments, would be have to come into effect; these would be devastating to the United States as well as the rest of the world! The Bible becoming law, no matter how many good effects it could have on the country, can't happen. It's outdated, oppressive and, when put into laws, frankly, sounds evil.
Again, thank you for accepting and I'm awaiting your response, Maisie :)
I would like to start out with respectfully disagreeing with your statement that things in Jesus time were irrelevant. Issues back then weren't actually that much different from what we have to deal with today. There are some differences such as Homosexuality, which is why Jesus talked very little about it, and several other problems(I mean no offense to any Honosexuals with this statements.) I agree with you that people have and will continue to distort Scripture, but on the other hand doesn't this happen with every other document including the Constitution? Once again I would like to say that the White people supporting Racism had no Scriptural support at all. If there are any I would appreciate it if you showed me them. Distorting Scripture is just how some people distort the Constitution by taking away Freedom of Speech and calling it hate speech and placing gun laws on the people( Sorry I these issues disagree with your views.) Does the Bible allow Slavery. Well it was allowed in the Old Testament, but as we have seen it was a very light form of bondage and the slaves were well provided for. But that's not the most compelling answer. I'd say the Best answer would be that by taking slaves those slaves were allowed to convert and become Jews in which they would be able to enter in a relationship with God and eventually be saved. So in a way, by using slavery God was able to save people's souls and give them eternal life. We also know that there was a slave in the New Testament who was a Christian and was told by Paul to return to his master and serve him Faithfully as God served us. In return Paul also commanded his master that he was to care and love his slave and Paul even went to him and made sure they were doing well. Why would God allow Slavery even if He believed we were all equal? He allowed it to accomplish his Will for all things to work together for his good and so that we could rejoice in our sufferings and love him through the toughest times. I also don't understand how you claim the Bible commands slavery. God allowed Israel to take slaves for the purpose of establishing their land and leading those foreign slaves to God. People rightfully say that you can't cherry pick the parts of the Bible you like, but they fail to realize that God unestablished some of his laws. Some include, Slavery, Dietary Laws, Sacrifices exc.
You say there is no evidence there needed. Is there any evidence there not needed? Did God ever say women couldn't pursue careers and work? No, but he did say that they should stay home to nurture and care for the children while the man provided money. What's wrong with that?
Another thing I would like to point out is that the Sabbath is Saturday not Sunday. God created the Sabbath so that people could rest and spend time in peace. The Pharisees condemned Jesus and his disciples for breaking the Sabbath by plucking corn and healing people. In return Jesus said these words
"What man will lose a sheep on the Sabbath and will not rescue it"
"I it lawful to do good or evil on the Sabbath? O you Hypocrites"
"The Sabbath was made for man and not by man"
"The Son of Man(Jesus) is Lord of the Sabbath"
Thanks and I'll turn it over to you.
Firstly, I'd like to begin by referring you back to the the debate topic which is 'Should the bible be law for the US?'. I think irrelevant was the wrong word to use, obviously the historical context can be important but this question refers to what would happen today if the laws and teachings of the Bible were implemented to America instead of the constitution. I apologize if I didn't make it clear in the original debate topic, but my question is similar to the one we both first encountered each other on which was to do with the Bible replacing the constitution. What happened in Jesus' time is very different to what would happen today if all the teachings of the Bible became law such as slavery being okay. Even if, for example like in Jesus' time, let's say someone borrowed a lot of money they couldn't repay from someone so they were in debt or they robbed a house and sold their irreplaceable items and were, therefore, made slaves of the household (as it would be allowed). The UN declaration of Human Rights clearly states in article 4 that 'No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.' (source - http://www.un.org...). This would cause America to have to leave the UN and leave all alliances, if we consider the uproar in countries such as Britain, Canada and France who would be outraged about being allied with a country that allowed any form of slavery. This friction could easily lead to war as it would, like I've said before, similar to Islamic state, people forced to be one religion unless they (in your words) 'convert and become Jews in which they would be able to enter in a relationship with God and eventually be saved' (Just like people of other religions there go into servitude or die). I apologize if me saying the Bible commanded slavery offended you. A better way of putting it would be that if all the teachings and laws of the Bible had to become law, then slavery would HAVE to become legal in some way as it is in both the Old and New Testament so, without a doubt, a part of the Bible. Again, I didn't mean the Bible itself promoted racism in any way, I'm wholeheartedly sorry if it did in any way because it wasn't what I meant. What I meant to explain was people used the slavery parts of the Bible to justify the enslavement of black people and the discrimination of them by saying things like 'The Bible supports what I'm doing!" And, though I hate to defend racists, they weren't wrong to claim the Bible didn't NOT support their actions, as slavery is made out to be a normal if not encouraged part of the scriptures! Though the Bible did not support racism itself, it allowed the actions of the racists by supporting slavery, for example as you said, Paul actually telling a slave to go back to servitude. I fear my last point may be fairly controversial, but if God was all-knowing, if God knows/knew everything that has happened or is going to happen then he would have made the laws on slavery, diet and sacrifices knowing he was going to unestablished them, meaning God knew these were useless and simply confusing. Therefore, if God made those laws, knowing they'd be taken advantage of in the future to allow the oppression on one race for years, but also knowing he was going to unestablish them anyway, why did he do it? If God knew setting these apparently useless laws, knowing they'd cause the abuse and suffering of an entire race for no apparent reason, is he all-loving? To be frank, I can't believe a God can love someone but watch them go through a life of suffering, if they can't bring themselves to believe that someone is up there who has the power to stop it, to send them to hell for eternity; again, as he is all-knowing he would be aware it would happen. These paradoxes are very interesting to me and I'd love to hear your opinion, again no offence intended by any of the previous comments.
Again, I didn't mean for you to interpret what I was saying as directly from the Bible, I was attempting to describe what modern life would be like if we strictly followed the Bible. I know God didn't say women couldn't work but he said they couldn't have authority over or teach a man (Timothy 2:12) so I was simply trying to show that the work force would take a serious blow if all women who had authority over or taught a man in their job would have to be punished and fired, as well as stay-at-home Dads being financially forced to work seeing as their possibly working wives couldn't get well-paid jobs easily and single mothers being forced out of jobs that supported their families suffering and possibly facing bankruptcy. Once again, I apologize if I didn't make it clear enough that this would be if the Bible was law for the US today. Asking me what's wrong with that is an interesting question, personally I think the idea that men providing for the family and women staying at home is outdated, damaging and oppressive to both women and men, and would be again, happy to debate the issue.
As I've said before, I haven't studied the Bible thoroughly as I'm not religious and it was completely my fault that I didn't look into it enough to realise the sabbath was a Saturday not a Sunday; I assumed the Sabbath was the day Church services were regularly held, and I thought God rested on the final day of the week after he created the Universe but I should have researched more, I apologise. But, as you mentioned the Sabbath being broken by Jesus, I have to add another point that the Bible has many contradictions in it. I'm not saying that this was necessarily an obvious one but, when making the new laws if the Bible replaces the constitution, how will the government know what to do? For example, Exodus 32:27 states, 'Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: "Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' which shows God commanding and therefore forgiving killing whereas just earlier, Exodus 20:13 says, 'You shall not murder' as one of God's Ten Commandments. There are many others such as God condemning marriage with a sister in Leviticus 20:17 (If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They are to be publicly removed from their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.) but blessing the union of Abraham and his sister in Genesis 17:16 (I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.) Laws on these matters could not be put in place because whatever you do goes against God's teachings.
Well, this is the end for me. It's been a pleasure to debate with you and I look forward to our next one. To conclude, I will say, implicating the Bible as US law today will cripple the moral and financial state of both America and the world due to laws against the UN's human rights, the dismissal of much of the American workforce causing a sudden decrease in all imports, exports and the worth of the dollar (and therefore the Petrodollar). Paired with the fact that it's impossible to put some laws into place without contradicting God as God contradicts itself makes using the Bible as US law morally and literally impossible. Thank you :)
I saw you mention the fact that we would have to allow slavery if we did establish the Bible as our document of law. This is in no case true mainly because economic slavery was only allowed by Israel thousands of years ago in the Old Testament. You may have realized that I said economic slavery. Slavery in the Old Testament was never RACIAL slavery. Slavery was always used as a means to repay debts or to just make a living. It would be similar to having your boss at work as a full time employer. Racial slavery itself violates the commandment that all men are created equal and in the image of God. But slavery is not in place today mainly because all Christians were once slaves of sin and we are some of the greatest, if not the greatest, opponents of slavery today. We no longer live under law but of grace. Another thing I saw you mention was that Slave owners used the Bible to prove their point. No actually they didn't. As I said previously slavery in Scripture was never racial and always respected the slaves. Here are a couple verses talking about how to treat slaves.
Deuteronomy 15:12-15- And if your brother is a slave to you and serves you six years free him on the seventh. And when you let him go don't let him go always empty handed( Payment food exc) and you shall supply him with a wine press with you house and with a flock. For you were also a slave in the land of Egypt and have been redeemed, therefore redeem his also.
Ephesians 6:9- Therefore treat them right and don't threaten them. For you also have a Master in Heaven and he treats all equally.
Colossians 4:1- Masters give to your servants what is just and equal for you also have a master in heaven.
We are to treat everyone with love and respect because we too have a Master.
Another thing about the Southern Slave owners was that they were most likely not Christian based on something they did. They would go to Africa and kidnap slaves which is abhorrent in the eyes of God.
Exodus 21:16- Anyone who takes another man and sells or is caught with him must be executed.
Timothy 1:8-10 Says that Slave traders are in the groups of extreme sinners such as murderers, rapists, and adulterers who will not see the Heaven.
You also kind of touched the subject of how can God love someone but let them suffer. Well that's because that's what God himself did. He came to Earth as a man and was whipped, beaten, spit on, stripped, and nailed to a cross to shed his blood for us and put all of our sins and problems on his shoulders. He then descended into Hell, many believe to take our spiritual punishment by suffering and burning for 3 days, and ressurected on the third day. How can we say this is not love? But why does he allow us to suffer? To glorify him. As the Bible says Precious is the death of the saints in the eyes of a living God and we must all pick up our own crosses to follow Jesus to Calvary. And hey I'll tell you now that no matter how painful this life becomes we'll all be rewarded with Eternal life in the Heavenly Realms if we merely believe in Jesus.
I don't understand how you can say that Gender roles are dangerous considering they have worked well and gotten us very far for our entire history. Gender roles are disappearing recently and it's causing break ups, divorces exc.
Also there is no need to apologize about the Sabbath thing because most people don't know it's Saturday. The Jewish call ended has the last day of the week on Saturday and Sunday was the Ressurection of Jesus and is the Day of Pentecost when the Church was founded.
As for Exodus 32:27, they had asked who was with Moses and The Lord and the rebels were then killed. I doubt killing rebels and traitors of America would be considered Murder. And these were men who were taking up arms against them not women and children.
And God condemned marrying relatives in the Levitical Law, but Abraham was before that where God allowed it.
Thanks for Debating with me and vote Pro!
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