The Instigator
bearski
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
ContraDictator
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should the girl be hanged for murdering her parents or should the King grant her clemency?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/2/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 533 times Debate No: 92010
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

bearski

Pro

Here are the basic facts

#1 a 14 year old girl murders her parents by lacing their food with rat poison

#2 the girl claims her father abused her but never reported it and teachers at her school testified they never saw any sign of abuse
#3 the girl was infatuated with a 19 year old boy whom she insisted on seeing against
her parents wishes

#4 the girl confessed to the crime but blamed the boy for talking her into it and her parents for threatening to spank her

#5 the girl was found guilty and sentence to hang. She will be executed in 30 days unless the King grants clemency.

Debate rules Debaters shall debate the question using as a basis the facts outlined above. Those facts shall not be refuted or denied. They must be assumed to be true.

The Pro/For will take the position the girl must be hanged for killing her parents

The Con/Against will take the position the King should grant clemency and that the girl should not be hanged
ContraDictator

Con

So far, the need for hanging as opposed to other methods of death sentence have not been addressed.

Public vs private hanging also not discussed.

On top of this the need for hanging as opposed to other forms of punishment haven't been discussed.

The need for death sentence at all hasn't been discussed.

Pro needs to prove all four to even stand a chance at winning this.
Debate Round No. 1
bearski

Pro

Here are the basic facts

#1 a 14 year old girl murders her parents by lacing their food with rat poison

#2 the girl claims her father abused her but never reported it and teachers at her school testified they never saw any sign of abuse
#3 the girl was infatuated with a 19 year old boy whom she insisted on seeing against
her parents wishes

#4 the girl confessed to the crime but blamed the boy for talking her into it and her parents for threatening to spank her
#5 the girl was found guilty and sentence to hang. She will be executed in 30 days unless the King grants clemency.

Debate rules Debaters shall debate the question using as a basis the facts outlined above. Those facts shall not be refuted or denied. They must be assumed to be true.

The Pro/For will take the position the girl must be hanged for killing her parents

The Con/Against will take the position the King should grant clemency and that the girl should not be hanged

Hanging is the method of execution chosen by the country in question. If Con prefers another method and wants to argue on those grounds then fine. I will argue hanging is the method preferred in most of the world. When done correctly it is quick, efficient, and relatively humane with the neck snapping causing instantaneous death. Other methods developed as supposedly more humane alternatives to hanging have proved not to be so. Further the use of lethal injection violates medical ethics by requiring the involvement of medical personnel in its implementation.

The girl will be hanged at the women's prison with only those persons necessary to carry out the execution present. The girl is being punished for murdering her parents. A public execution will detract from that focus by turning the execution into a public spectacle.

Death by hanging is the mandatory penalty for murder where this is taking place. The King however has the authority to grant clemency. If Con wants to argue alternative punishments are better then fine

The girl will die because of the seriousness of her crime. A crime which was carefully planned and executed. It was cruel and depraved. Yes maybe the girl got spanked for disobeying her parents but that doesn't excuse murdering her parents

Just to clarify -- the girl plead guilty to the murders of her parents and was sentenced to die by hanging. She is 14 years old and will executed at the women's prison in 30 days unless granted clemency
ContraDictator

Con

Method of Death Sentence and Privacy of it vs Deterrence
I actually find it amusing that Pro justifies the method of death sentence by saying it's one of the least suffering-inducing methods and on top of that is keeping it private. If you are going to go to the lengths of slaughtering your own people as a King, the motive should be to make it as gruesome and as much of a spectacle of it as would keep your people terrified of disobeying you but not so terrified that they revolt against you for the act.

If you simply are looking for the cleanest, most merciful method of slaughtering the girl then you are, in essence, on the path of clemency and may as well go a step further along that road to show just how merciful you really are.

The Death Sentence Itself vs Revolution
The King has the power to change the 'ways of the land', thus even if at present the death sentence is the reflex-response to murder, this doesn't justify why the King shouldn't use a murder as widespread and with everyone's eyes on it as this to finally change things. A widespread event is the best way to send a message to his people and if that message is 'we should stop killing people if we want them to stop killing' then this event if perhaps one of the best to do so as everyone will be in shock and awe and word will spread around faster than on a mediocre murder.

The Parents' Threatening and Boy's manipulation
Everything in your '5 facts' is taken to be a fact except for the facts that the girl herself brought up. I see nowhere indication that her testimony, which included a guilty pleading, should be taken to be false whatsoever. She didn't conceal her actions or try to initially please not-guilty; both of which would imply a carefully planned psychopathic murder. We are not there to see just how harsh her parents were or how deeply involved with it the boy was but I think if anyone should be hanged here, it's her boyfriend for manipulating a minor to be his 'weapon' of sorts. Isn't 14 years underage? Why is this pedophile not the focus of the matter. A 14 year old cannot consent legally and thus can't be considered to have truly taken into account all factors of the murder beforehand.

Granting Clemency Encourages Guilty Please
Many unsolved cases and future would-be long-term investigations that waste time and resources of the King's land and people could be cut short if the criminals see a motive to plead guilty, the motive being clemency. If the death sentence was kept as relevant to cases where deception to the justice system was present during trial and clemency was regarded as solely relevant to cases there guilty plea was prompt, this would encourage many to plea guilty assuming their self-preservation instinct is intact.

No Sensible Motive To Hang
So far I have seen no justification for this hanging other than that it it 'widely accepted'. A King is perhaps the single best person in the land to cause a lowkey revolution of a positive kind so why not do so?
Debate Round No. 2
bearski

Pro

you need to look up the definition of pedophilia-- if you do you'll find 19 year old boys and not pedophiles because they have sex with 14 year old girls. It is not a crime to be pedophile. It is a crime to sexually abuse children. Those are two different things-- Most sexual abuse of children including nearly all of adolescents is not committed by pedophiles.

The girl committed a willful, wanton, and maliciously depraved act when she murdered her parents with rat poison. The girl has told tales of how her father would come into her bedroom at night and sexually molest her and how her mother whipped her with a leather strap for lying about her father. We can feel pity for her and have empathy for her but she made a choice to murder her parents in a patently depraved and cruel way and for that her neck will break

The girl will be hanged at the woman's prison at sunrise on the appointed day. She will suffer for the murders of her mother and father. It is best the execution be carried out in a way which doesn't maintains proper decorum and demeanor and doesn't turn into a public entertainment-- as public executions mostly were.

Doesn't it make me seem like a pretty bad person for advocating for the girl's execution? Just ignore that and argue on the facts as I have presented them and of which you may infer. Thank you for a good debate-- it was better than I thought it would be and that is mostly credit to you
ContraDictator

Con

The Issue of Pedophilia
Since 14 isn't the age of a young child I will retract calling him a pedophile, instead he has committed statutory rape. The point I made was that on top of him having committed statutory rape on this girl, he manipulated her into murdering her parents so he'd have easier access to her and since you haven't denied that he did this, I am assuming that it is true.

New Information Regarding Extent of Abuse
In Round 3 of Pro's case, Pro states that her father sexually molested her and on top of that, her mother whips her with a leather strap for apparently lying about the father... Whipping with a leather strap is not simply spanking, it can leave scars and was a primary method of abuse of black slaves:



On top of this, sexual abuse is no light matter. The very aggression she had that led her to murder her parents could itself have resulted from the abuse they gave her.
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.secasa.com.au...

Undisputed Points of Mine
Pro failed to even acknowledge let alone rebut the following points:


    • No Sensible Motive To Hang

    • Granting Clemency Encourages Guilty Pleas

    • The Parents' Threatening (this turned out to be far worse in light of Pro's Round 3) and Boy's manipulation

    • The Death Sentence Itself vs Revolution (I explained why the death sentence being Status Quo had no implication on a King)


The only single point that Pro keeps reiterating is that it was wrong for the girl to murder her parents. Taking into account the abuse she suffered, which has only come to light in round 3 this is much more severe than some booty smacks and a lustful boyfriend, her parents tormented her until she snapped. Frankly, I would give her a pat on the back as she saved herself many future years of abuse and perhaps can overcome the Post-traumatic stress disorder at a younger age than she would if it continued.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by ContraDictator 11 months ago
ContraDictator
good game well played
Posted by bearski 11 months ago
bearski
the issue of abuse is often involved in cases where children murder their parents-- maybe not in every case but in most cases-- it involves not only sexual and physical abuse but also emotional abuse. I provided references to the alleged no I won't say that I will just call it abuse in the earlier rounds but because my opponent didn't pick up on it I feel it needed a more explicit description. To my opponent good arguments on your part and thank you for accepting the scenario as a basis for the debate
Posted by bearski 11 months ago
bearski
the issue of abuse is often involved in cases where children murder their parents-- maybe not in every case but in most cases-- it involves not only sexual and physical abuse but also emotional abuse. I provided references to the alleged no I won't say that I will just call it abuse in the earlier rounds but because my opponent didn't pick up on it I feel it needed a more explicit description. To my opponent good arguments on your part and thank you for accepting the scenario as a basis for the debate
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